[M13] Mana Leak is out

[ashtonvanhelsing]

Originally Posted by Iampro

U are missing the point, u are now forced to run bad cards to stop only 1 part of the meta

Gutshot is a bad card? Ok. You are SO right. Last I checked, direct damage that one can run for free in any color deck one wants is SO bad. No one should ever use this card. Absolutely.

[ashtonvanhelsing]

Originally Posted by epeeguy

I was looking through the various blue stuff in Standard at the moment, and wondered if they could do a variant of Steel Sabotage, except strictly for creatures. That might have to be or , since the current "Counter target creature spell" is , and Unsummon is .

Yeah, Force Spike may or may not be good in the format. I think the concept is sound, in that it is a 1 mana cost-for-1 mana tax. But that might be too efficient. Miscalculation without cycling is probably the next best thing if Mana Leak isn't reprinted. And honestly, that feels like shifting from Terror to Doom Blade to me.

Edit: But, honestly, the more I look at creatures like Fettergeist and Lone Revenant (especially when the latter has a sword or Spectral Flight), the more interesting MUC becomes. And there's Alchemist's Apprentice as an early blocker. I don't know if it's tier 1, but it might be an interesting thing to try at FNM.

That could be pretty cool. :Counter target creature spell, or return target creature to its owner's hand. Not too paowerful, multi-purpose, and interesting. It would be really sad if WotC took something like this good idea, and ruined it somehow. Like by printing a land that makes creatures uncounterable. Oh wait, they did just that! I guess there is always Ghost Quarter. I had completely forgotten about Cavern of Souls in this whole discussion of counter spells. ARGH!

I recently had another such moment. I was looking through my Innistrad last night and found Frightful Delusions, which I had initially passed over because it was a three mana soft counter (Force Spike soft no less...). Now, I read it, and though to myself, man, that would be interesting to try, had they NOT put it into a set with a bunch of flashback cards.... Frightful Delusions is exactly the kind of thing that worries me about WotC and their recent hatred of counter spells working at all. With this in mind, I kinda have to wonder if they will replace Leak with anything at all. Why would one print a counter spell that has a discard bonus in a set full of flashback? Why would one print a land that makes creatures uncounterable right before
a new core set in which it looks like one of the fairest options would be to print a creature targeting counter spell? It seems like only someone that wants to cripple counter cards would do things like this. I understand limiting, but crippling is ridiculous. Hell, to make up for all of the control leg breaking they have been doing, they may just need to reprint Cryptic to balance out the balancing they have done. I still think Mana Leak needs to go. I was excited to see it when I found out they were going to reprint it, just like I was excited to see the titans for the first time. Now, I think all these things should go in favor of something new. Why? Because new shakes up the game. Thoughtfully fun, and good to play new stuff changes the entire meta. I think some new stuff would be awesome.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by epeeguy

Why not? So far, there have been some who've been really quick to compare blue to black when it comes to removal. So, why do you want to limit the argument when we start looking across the spectrum at how other colors do/don't handle other problems?

You can't have the argument go only the one way. If you want to make comparisons of counters to removal, then you can't disallow other comparisons as well.

I clearly said "can"...

Originally Posted by epeeguy

Of course drawing cards have been "made worse". Lots of things have been made worse compared to older cards; some have been made better. That's part of the wax and wane in Magic, and modern development.

Please do tell me something that became better in blue compared to other cards. One can debate about creatures, but they are either multicolored ( Psychatog, Geist of Saint Traft), or very unbalanced (like Delver of Secrets).

Originally Posted by epeeguy

When it comes to drawing more than one card at a time, most of that is now relegated to sorceries rather than instants. That's been a distinct slowdown in modern development, because drawing cards via instants can be a very powerful effect. Or, you have to pay an increased cost to get that kind of effect if it is an instant. For example, Azure Mage has "instant card drawing", except you have to get Azure Mage on the battlefield first.

The problem is that there is no decent Instant speed draw engine. Not even a super weak Inspiration. I would never argue that instant speed card draw should cost more, or at least with added disadvantages, since it clearly should. But for god's sake, at least make them available.

Originally Posted by epeeguy

Then again, there's Forbidden Alchemy these days, which is a really good way for blue/black to dig for answers. But, you are never going to get exactly the same effect these days as you used to get in the past. At least not for the costs that you used to pay.

True. Even though Forbidden Alchemy is a more expensive Impulse, is a fair, balanced card. The main problem is that no deck other than one running UB can truly make use of the full potential of the card, and there aren't many of those around.

Originally Posted by epeeguy

Blue has hardly been "neutered" any more than it has been "shafted" or anything else. Is it as powerful as it used to be? No. But blue still has a huge presence in many Standard decks. Its role is much different, but I think that's a problem for other reasons.

The presence of blue in decks base upon cheap / powerful creatures, and almost no control elements around. The debate is about the loss of blue tools that make an archetype live and prosper. Blue happens to be the color mentioned here. If Wizards get to print a 5, 6 mana Wrath of God, with no difference, just because "it's too powerful vs creatures" i will complain as well.

Originally Posted by epeeguy

But this is also happening, more or less, with the other colors. Standard has been slowed down to make the games last longer. Every color has been experiencing that to an extent, which is part of the wax/wane that should occur as a natural part of development these days.

Yes, we are experiencing hugecuts on all other colors.
Creatures have been getting better each set. Aggro decks have powerful anti-control aspects in them (Uncounterable, Hexproof, etç), and getting cheaper. It's clear the road they are taking, and one must remember that losing one archetype (in standard's case, two) is not exactly healthy. And we all had our fair share of unhealthy environments.

Wax/wane can't be freely used as an excuse or explanation for the changes made so far.

Originally Posted by epeeguy

You can't ignore the current format when developing anything. To look at any single card in a vacuum just doesn't work. To do that leads to mistakes that have been made in the past. And short of banning Snapcaster Mage, the FFL can't ignore its potential presence in any deck that has blue. No differently than it can ignore any other card.

Consider Intangible Virtue and token generation...

What i'm saying is that it's the very same argument about banning a card. When they feel that in a given meta, banning or unbanning a card would help new decks rise and prosper, or when they see a card / deck as a nuisance to the health of an environment, bans occur. If they can't design cards or worse, have to design cards to stop some kind of strategy / deck something should be considered.

Ravager Affinity was an example most of us remember well, storming Block, Standard and Extended. It became unfair in two environments, and a staple tier 1 decks in another. But unlike creatures like Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage, Affinity didn't became a staple in Legacy. We are talking about highly synergistic cards, that fit in most strategies, with a power level bigger than most creatures around.

Originally Posted by epeeguy

Except that's not the statement that was made. The "never see print" isn't in that statement at all. And I think it is disingenuous to keep characterizing the statement that way. Even then, that statement can hardly be taken to mean that Mana Leak will "never" come back in the Core set.

The statement is simply a recognition of the relative power of Mana Leak's effect versus it's cost these days. No more, no less.

So, by telling us that a two mana situational counter is nowadays too powerful, when we see the pattern of even more cuts in that color in terms of power... It means we're getting (more?) powerful tools?

Should i, after reading Zac's article expect Fact or Fiction in a future Core Set (not exactly the next)? A Counterspell?

Of course not. I will be expecting what Wizards have been giving me as a control player every new set: worse and worse cards, until either i am forced to play aggro to remain competitive in a meta, or quit playing. Nothing more, nothing less.

You can't expect me to be happy while aggro strategies getso many tools and solutions, and some to problems that don't even exist, that the style of play i prefer is getting so torn apart that almost no deck is viable in the two main Constructed formats.

Originally Posted by epeeguy

The decks that are or aren't viable in the format depends on a lot of factors, and there are certainly decks that weren't viable that are now viable. And that keeps shifting. Eventually someone will discover a "best" control deck that works in the format, though I think there are already various control decks that work well these days. Or, the next set will come in and give more tools that allow for such a deck to develop. But it's rare that you will get exactly what you want in Standard these days. You may get something close, but more than that is overly wishful thinking.

Name me, please, viable control (not tempo) decks in Standard. Or even in Modern. Faeries and Tron? Combo and / or Tempo oriented decks aren't exactly control strategies.

The problem is that as a control player, i get something that's close... to playable. If i would choose aggro, i would have far more than i would expect to get, by taking into consideration past sets.

Originally Posted by epeeguy

That's simply part of the normal cycle in development these days; it prevents stagnation in the format, which is healthy for the game in the short and long runs.

Standard is a stagnant environment. "Healthy" means we have viable decks in all play styles. I only see aggro.

If you call that "healthy", i can show you how wrong you are. As for "Diverse", well, that i believe we both agree, but not in the same style.

[DrWorm]

Originally Posted by epeeguy

However, the suggestion that blue must have it or it just fails, is a faulty argument in my opinion. Should there always be good, playable counters in the Core set? Absolutely. But requiring that to be Mana Leak all the time just leads to stagnation in the development of counters.

It seems to me that you are misunderstanding the intent of the objection to the removal of Mana Leak. I don't think anyone is saying that it should be a permanent fixture in Standard, they are saying that blue should always have a good poly-targeting counter spell in Standard. There are a few different cards that can take it's place (like Rune Snag) in the back catalog, and there is design room for more, but it really must be 2 cmc, poly-targeting, and not result in additional tempo or CA loss on the part of the counter player. If all you are arguing is that we need some variety in the good counter spells in Standard then I fully agree, but if you are arguing that we need to remove Mana Leak and not replace it with a counter spell that is the same (or similar) power level, then we are in contention.

Mana Leak is not a Sacred Cow, but the need it fills is critical to a healthy metagame.

[ashtonvanhelsing]

Mana Leak should be replaced by Rites of Refusal. We have a two sets heavily based in graveyard mechanics, namely flashback, so this card is the best and most fair replacement for mana leak that already exists. If played correctly, this functions the same as Mana Leak. Yes, you have to lose a little card advantage. So then whichever card you chose to discard (and hopefully you are making a good choice) will only get to be played once instead of twice. Darn. However, this guy has the added bonus of being MORE relevant late game. This gives you the ability to say "Screw it, I really don't want that going off" and allows you to ditch however many cards you need to make the payoff out of your opponents reach. But then you lose those cards in hand, and can only play them out of your graveyard. So, it weakens Delver slightly (maybe even considerably) by taking some of its early game card advantage, while at the same time actually getting a little better in the mid-game than Mana Leak. This only makes sense because we are working with a Standard full of flashback stuff. This won't strengthen Modern any because the counters in that format are all better than this one, so there is nothing to worry about there. And hell, if they are going to print some crap like Frightful Delusion in a flashback set, and they are planning on taking away Mana Leak, then they might as well be considerate and give us this instead. This is better than Remove Soul, but not quite as good as Leak.

PS. I am also advocating for a Cryptic Command reprint. At 4 cmc, and in light of Cavern of Souls, I don't think it would break the game right now.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by DrWorm

There are a few different cards that can take it's place (like Rune Snag) in the back catalog, and there is design room for more, but it really must be 2 cmc, poly-targeting, and not result in additional tempo or CA loss on the part of the counter player.

2 cmc, yes. Polytargeting, yes. Not result in additional tempo or CA loss, no. Blue needs to lose either CA or tempo, at least in the early game, so that blue gets out of aggro. Delver is NOT a control deck. Delver is blatantly an aggro deck. Ideally, in Delver, you do not interact at all with your opponents board. This is essentially a Fish deck. Since this (blue aggro) is clearly an affront to everyone's sensibilities, blue's early game needs to be slowed down. Since the tempo is in the realm of Delver, Stalker, Geist, etc. then clearly CA is what should be dented. Thus, Rites of Refusal is a perfect replacement.

[DrWorm]

Originally Posted by ashtonvanhelsing

Delver is NOT a control deck. Delver is blatantly an aggro deck. Ideally, in Delver, you do not interact at all with your opponents board. This is essentially a Fish deck. Since this (blue aggro) is clearly an affront to everyone's sensibilities, blue's early game needs to be slowed down. Since the tempo is in the realm of Delver, Stalker, Geist, etc. then clearly CA is what should be dented. Thus, Rites of Refusal is a perfect replacement.

Mana Leak is not a tempo card, so why should the card that replaces it be any less of a tempo card. Delver is a Tempo deck, not an aggro deck, as aggro really only runs creatures and direct damage spells (maybe a couple of removal spells too). Delver uses cheap blue instants to put their opponent off their tempo, while maintaining pressure by way of cheap evasive creatures so it is clearly a tempo deck.

CA is really poor at the moment in Standard (from what I can tell), so hurting it more would be very bad.

[ashtonvanhelsing]

Originally Posted by DrWorm

Mana Leak is not a tempo card, so why should the card that replaces it be any less of a tempo card. Delver is a Tempo deck, not an aggro deck, as aggro really only runs creatures and direct damage spells (maybe a couple of removal spells too). Delver uses cheap blue instants to put their opponent off their tempo, while maintaining pressure by way of cheap evasive creatures so it is clearly a tempo deck.

CA is really poor at the moment in Standard (from what I can tell), so hurting it more would be very bad.

CA isn't poor in Standard. It isn't amazing, like it was with cards like Remand, but it isn't poor. And if you look at Rites of Refusal, it only hurts CA by about 30% (flashback cards), less if you are using it with Snapcaster in the same deck. It actually brings balance to an otherwise unbalanced situation.

I will give you that Delver is a tempo deck, by definition. However, from my experience, it is the bounce that keeps Delver ahead in tempo far more than the counters. For instance, I have seen several top 8 Delver decks that only ran one or two Mana Leaks, whereas if Leak were so important to it maintaining its tempo edge, you would expect to ALWAYS see 3 or 4.

However, Delver is not solely tempo. One major argument about Delver not being aggro is Geist of Saint Traft, arguably one of the more important cards in the deck. That card is extremely aggro. Just because it does not have haste does not mean its sole purpose is not attacking. Geist is clearly in the deck for the very early brutal damage edge it gives. Further, a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana is aggro. Either that or Goblin Guide was totally tempo. So, a deck full of aggro creatures, that uses aggro strategy (early heavy pressure), is absolutely, in no way, aggro? Or is it specifically the evasion that makes it tempo?

Further, I find it questionable that the bounce can even be considered tempo any more than Doom Blade can. Because Delver does so much damage so quickly, the bounce simply acts like virtual removal. Honestly, in the times that I have played Delver, I have only once had to go on to counter a creature that I bounced because the games are usually over by turn 4-5, or over enough that I don't bother. The Mana Leaks usually just end up stopping board wipe or spot removal, so they are really there just to protect the aggro beaters that are winning me the game. BTW, I have yet to actually lose a round at FNM with Delver, and I have been playing it aggro the whole time I have had it sleeved. So, I will concede to it having tempo advantage, if and only if you concede that it is indeed quite aggro.

Further, I am not sure exactly how Rites of Refusal hurts tempo. It has exactly the same mana access as Mana Leak, so does not affect tempo any differently than Mana Leak. The extra cost of discarding cards affects CA, and I suppose through that it affects tempo, but again, we have en environment full of flashback cards, and Delver uses Snapcaster, which gives flashback to any instant or sorcery.

Let's try a little experiment. Sleeve up a Delver deck, and instead of Mana Leaks, sub in Rites of Refusal. See just exactly how much it ruins the deck. I have actually tried it, since this is actually what I expect Wizards to do. It really doesn't slow down Delver much, if at all in most situations.

Rites of Refusal is LESS powerful than Mana Leak, but still operates nearly the same, even more so in the current Standard, and by the time the flashback cards rotate, they will have a new core set to put a new core counter in. I am trying to look at this from their perspective, instead of what I want. Rune Snag would be awesome. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Rune Snag is strictly better than Mana Leak. Period. They don't like Mana Leak because they say it is too much for Standard, so why would they let a strictly better card in. That is living Magical Christmas Set Development land, and WotC is not Santa.

[Infallible]

^ Rites of Refusal is awful. A two mana counter spell should never require you to discard a card as a conditional cost. Rune Snag is not better than Mana Leak. They are about equal and a lot of the time it comes down to preference. Control uses Rune Snag, tempo uses mana leak as Control wants a late game counter. In the current standard Rune Snag would be more balanced than Mana Leak because of the interaction between it and Snapcaster Mage.

Furthermore I don't know if you really have an idea what tempo is. It's a little iffy to explain but I'll do it the best I can;

Delver's strategy is to advance it's position while setting you back. There is no good spot removal in white so it ops to use Vapor Snag's and Leak's to what is know as `Timewalking` you by basically getting an extra turn over you by canceling whatever you did on your prior turn. These types of decks are not like Aggro decks because they do not still have a late game, and they are no control decks because they typically run out of resources very quickly. Tempo's strategy described in one sentence ; `` I take one step forward and push you two steps backwards.``

[epeeguy]

Originally Posted by John Doe

Please do tell me something that became better in blue compared to other cards. One can debate about creatures, but they are either multicolored ( Psychatog, Geist of Saint Traft), or very unbalanced (like Delver of Secrets).

Planeswalkers for one. The additions of Fettergeist, Lone Revenant, and Temporal Mastery are also pretty strong. There's also Consecrated Sphinx, Frost Titan, Deceiver Exarch, Gitaxian Probe, Mental Misstep, Phantasmal Image, and Vapor Snag. I'd include Snapcaster Mage, but do you think that's "very unbalanced"? But those first three should be extremely playable in some kind of blue deck, and the other seven were present in several decks.

That's just the stuff that rings a bell in Standard from the last year. I could discuss the Faeries from Lorwyn-block. Or would you consider those "very unbalanced"?

Edit: I forgot Devastation Tide as well. Reprinting Upheaval at a cheaper cost with a reduced effect, and with an even cheaper conditional cost, seems like a very interesting inclusion going forward.

Originally Posted by John Doe

The problem is that there is no decent Instant speed draw engine. Not even a super weak Inspiration. I would never argue that instant speed card draw should cost more, or at least with added disadvantages, since it clearly should. But for god's sake, at least make them available.

This supposes there is a need for some kind of "instant speed draw engine". Is such a thing actually necessary in Standard these days?

Originally Posted by John Doe

The presence of blue in decks base upon cheap / powerful creatures, and almost no control elements around. The debate is about the loss of blue tools that make an archetype live and prosper. Blue happens to be the color mentioned here. If Wizards get to print a 5, 6 mana Wrath of God, with no difference, just because "it's too powerful vs creatures" i will complain as well.

I don't deny that is what the current environment looks like. But Esper Control has a presence in Standard, even if it isn't the dominant deck. Same with Solar Flare. Caw-Blade still does reasonably well in Modern.

Either way, this wasn't the case with Standard a year ago, and it probably won't be the case with Standard a year from now. Looking at today as a snapshot of "loss of blue tools" is overlooking where blue has been, and where blue probably will be in the future.

Originally Posted by John Doe

Creatures have been getting better each set. Aggro decks have powerful anti-control aspects in them (Uncounterable, Hexproof, etç), and getting cheaper. It's clear the road they are taking, and one must remember that losing one archetype (in standard's case, two) is not exactly healthy. And we all had our fair share of unhealthy environments.

Wax/wane can't be freely used as an excuse or explanation for the changes made so far.

While creatures have been getting better with each set, that's a good thing. Creatures were bad for a very long time, and in order to make Limited and Standard good, creatures had to get better. Are some creatures too good? Probably, but I can't see that trend continuing forever without end. There's already been some "mistakes" along these lines, and I would think that even WotC recognizes when to back-off somewhat.

Have spells been decreased in power? Sure, but that moved the game to more creature combat, which needed to be just as viable in the game. Have spells decreased too far in power? Possibly, but I think there's plenty of good spells that have been added to the game, just in different ways and shapes.

You can argue that wax and wane hasn't gone in your favor, and I would acknowledge that. Wax and wane doesn't necessarily benefit every party equally. But it is there nonetheless.

Originally Posted by John Doe

So, by telling us that a two mana situational counter is nowadays too powerful, when we see the pattern of even more cuts in that color in terms of power... It means we're getting (more?) powerful tools?

Saying "Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules." is a few things...

(1) A measurement of its effect versus its cost.
(2) A recognition of the format and how Mana Leak would fit in that format.
(3) An acknowledgment that it is a matter of "comfort" to print or not print the card.

...and it does signal a change in the development of counters. Yes, this also probably means that some of your favorite kinds of counters might not see print for a while. But it doesn't mean never see print again. No different than Lightning Bolt. And, like anything else, removal of one card from the rotation for a while easily opens up development of replacement cards. But, they've shown they can print cards they aren't comfortable with from time to time.

Edit: Specifically, if Mana Leak hadn't been an established card from Stronghold and reprinted in prior sets (so it was completely brand new), it would be unlikely they'd develop such a card these days. I imagine that's the case with several cards, had they never been printed at some point already.

Originally Posted by John Doe

Of course not. I will be expecting what Wizards have been giving me as a control player every new set: worse and worse cards, until either i am forced to play aggro to remain competitive in a meta, or quit playing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then if you believe that is genuinely the case, I would suggest taking time off from the current Standard environment until you are happy with the cards in the format. If you are strictly concerned about remaining competitive or winning with a particular deck, then perhaps that is best.

I think that would be the wrong attitude to take, because I think Avacyn Restored has brought a lot of tools with it to make blue-based control pretty good. I won't predict that blue-based control will be the dominant deck once everyone has had a chance to assess the new cards and build decks accordingly, but I think it will start doing a lot better over the next few months.

Originally Posted by John Doe

You can't expect me to be happy while aggro strategies getso many tools and solutions, and some to problems that don't even exist, that the style of play i prefer is getting so torn apart that almost no deck is viable in the two main Constructed formats.

I don't care about your happiness one bit. It's entirely irrelevant to any discussion of Mana Leak as a card, and where it sits on the general "curve" of cost versus effect and measuring its use and efficiency.

Originally Posted by John Doe

Name me, please, viable control (not tempo) decks in Standard. Or even in Modern. Faeries and Tron? Combo and / or Tempo oriented decks aren't exactly control strategies.

It is still a bit too early to tell, since Avacyn Restored was just introduced to the format. And I think that's the biggest reason why you can't show anything is "wrong" with the format. Because the introduction of that many cards will surely have an impact.

Originally Posted by John Doe

Standard is a stagnant environment. "Healthy" means we have viable decks in all play styles. I only see aggro.

If you believe that Standard is a stagnant environment, then you are willfully ignoring how much the environment has changed not only since last year, but also in the last six months. Let alone how it will change in the next six months, between what Avacyn Restored has probably brought to the format, or what M2013 could bring to the format.

Originally Posted by DrWorm

Mana Leak is not a Sacred Cow, but the need it fills is critical to a healthy metagame.

That's my point. A viable counterspell at CMC 2 is good for the format. Mana Leak doesn't have to be that card. Continued insistence that Mana Leak must be that card is what makes it a "sacred cow."

[jturphy]

Originally Posted by ashtonvanhelsing

Gutshot is a bad card? Ok. You are SO right. Last I checked, direct damage that one can run for free in any color deck one wants is SO bad. No one should ever use this card. Absolutely.

Gut shot itself is a bad card. One damage for 2 life isn't a good trade. However, based on a metagame, it can become a good card. On pure power level, it is not good though.

[mrplaque]

Originally Posted by Infallible

^ Rites of Refusal is awful. A two mana counter spell should never require you to discard a card as a conditional cost.

What are you basing this on?

[Infallible]

Originally Posted by mrplaque

What are you basing this on?

Edit: Two mana soft counter. I'm basing this off of the fact that soft counters are situational as is and don't need to make you discard a card to counter a spell.

[mrplaque]

Originally Posted by Infallible

Edit: Two mana soft counter. I'm basing this off of the fact that soft counters are situational as is and don't need to make you discard a card to counter a spell.

Ah, I see. Thank you for teaching me something.

[Infallible]

Originally Posted by mrplaque

Ah, I see. Thank you for teaching me something.

Not..sure if sarcastic.. but you're welcome if not.

[mrplaque]

Originally Posted by Infallible

Not..sure if sarcastic.. but you're welcome if not.

It wasn't. I didn't (and possibly still do not) know what a soft counter was.