[Official] 'Casual' versus 'Competitive' Commander

[Son_of_the_Suns]

To get that clear: I think it's ok to scoop when the Kaalia player resolves his mass ld without getting Kaalia shot. He will most likely win anyway. It always depends on how you're scooping. If you just say "Ok, you won. Next game." without any sign of aggression or any other offensive behavior, it's fine. However, what Zer0faults writes rather reminds me of Francis, the tableflipper.





(Not to be taken serious, Zer0faults most likely is not that crazy.)

[Overbeing_of_Myth]

Originally Posted by Son_of_the_Suns

To get that clear: I think it's ok to scoop when the Kaalia player resolves his mass ld without getting Kaalia shot. He will most likely win anyway. It always depends on how you're scooping. If you just say "Ok, you won. Next game." without any sign of aggression or any other offensive behavior, it's fine. However, what Zer0faults writes rather reminds me of Francis, the tableflipper.





(Not to be taken serious, Zer0faults most likely is not that crazy.)

I actually find when I play nice, calm, and smug... other people flip tables.

[ticker]

Originally Posted by Son_of_the_Suns

To get that clear: I think it's ok to scoop when the Kaalia player resolves his mass ld without getting Kaalia shot. He will most likely win anyway. It always depends on how you're scooping. If you just say "Ok, you won. Next game." without any sign of aggression or any other offensive behavior, it's fine. However, what Zer0faults writes rather reminds me of Francis, the tableflipper.





(Not to be taken serious, Zer0faults most likely is not that crazy.)

His name is Zerofaults....



...were you expecting him admit he was wrong lol?

[DRofocale]

Man, all these people complaining about casual players makes me thankful for my nice, casual playgroup lol. It really isn't that hard for us: if you make a deck and people don't have fun playing against it/ you don't have fun playing it, modify it or scrap it. Then again, we all play to have fun, not to win.

[Son_of_the_Suns]

Originally Posted by DRofocale

Man, all these people complaining about casual players makes me thankful for my nice, casual playgroup lol. It really isn't that hard for us: if you make a deck and people don't have fun playing against it/ you don't have fun playing it, modify it or scrap it. Then again, we all play to have fun, not to win.

Yeah, my goal is to have everyone have a good time.


I just wonder what people mean when they say "I don't have fun playing against deck xy.". I've never seen a deck that wasn't fun to play against. Literally NEVER. And I have played against every type of deck in edh. Of course, there are some players who just are dicks, for example those who play cards I don't know (or can't read, due to a lack of japanese skills) and refuse to explain them. However, it's never a certain deck type I have a problem with. It's a type of players I have a problem with, especially the bad losers.

There was this player playing uw stax (Grand Arbiter Augustin IV) who screwed me over and over again and I still had fun. Maybe some people just should relax and accept that it's a game so someone has to win?

[spezza19]

Nothing about EDH is worth stressing over. It's just a game... a game which doesn't mean anything.

If someone plays a card that spoils my fun, I take solace in the knowledge that retribution will be swift and cruel in the next game. Politics > whining

[Zaphrasz]

Originally Posted by Altik_0

What exactly do you mean by "smacking them on the nose with a newspaper"? Because IMO quitting because you're butthurt your lands got destroyed is just that: you're refusing the player the satisfaction of playing through the game and possibly winning because of his strategy, just because you find it boring.

If all you care about is the win, you shouldn't care if you won through combat or by the opponent scooping. If you do care how you win, then you've established that winning isn't the only aspect of playing a game, and we can have a conversation.

[zer0faults]

Man we resorted to personal attacks lol

No I don't flip tables, I scoop and others sometimes do as well. The Kaalia player can take that as a sign of winning, which they did technically. Scooping is forfeiting. However I think they realize why the table scooped and they usually change decks. At least in my playgroup that is.

I play Magic to have fun. I don't think mass LD is fun, especially when its not going to win on that turn. As such, as someone who is attempting to have fun, I rather scoop and speed up the game by having one less player, or inspire others to do the same and have the game end that way. Either way I only get to play Magic one day a week and the 5 hours are hours I rather not spend staring at my hand in boredom.

As for right or wrong, we are all expressing opinions and personal feelings on a tactic and how enjoyable it is. If your enjoyment is to play by yourself while everyone else just stares at their hands, that cool, but it doesn't mean I have to enjoy it, or sit through it. Its similar to a Lattice Forge Disk lock. Do all of you guys really sit there and wait for the 1/1 Myr they have out to kill everyone, or do you scoop to get to another game?

[Epochalyptik]

A healthy EDH meta is one that has both casual and competitive playgroups and allows players to pick which of them to participate in on any given game. This is what I have around my area and it works quite well.

Although EDH began as a casual format, I see no reason why it has to stay that way. Let it evolve based on the players' needs and wants. If you play your precon Commander deck and you want a low-intensity game with a lot of silly effects and no "serious" players, that should not interfere with my desire to have a high-level game with a bunch of ruthless combo-control decks. No one can say the format should be casual or competitive, and if they try to then they are wrong. EDH is both. Your playgroup is what happens to be one or the other.

Player dissatisfaction with EDH being too casual or too competitive usually stems from a meta that is predominantly one almost to the exclusion of the other. If somebody wants to play a causal game but most of the players at his or her LGS are competitive, then that player will feel left out. It inevitably happens, and it's unfortunate, but trying to regulate the format so it's forced to become one or the other is the absolute worst "solution" there is.

Speaking of which, players should also note that the official banlist is not their personal tool. If you don't like a certain card or strategy, don't whine about it every opportunity you get. Instead, sit down with your friends and form your own kitchen table banlist. Make it a rule that if a player wants to participate in your group's game, then he or she must abide by the banlist. This will be attractive to some and dissuasive to others, but at the end of the day you're playing a variant that you enjoy more. If somebody is playing a deck that nobody else in the playgroup likes, ban him or her from your group (or at least that deck).

If you are the minority voice in your meta, then this is harder. You should usually be able to find at least one or two other players that want the same thing out of a game as you do, so look for them and get some games going.

As far as events go, your LGS (or the TO) will set the guidelines. If you don't like them, don't play in the event. If you do play, then don't get angry when someone shows up with a deck that isn't of the same caliber as yours; organized EDH is like any other format - people build different styles and levels of deck. Nobody is forcing you to take part in the event; if you participate then you accept the possibility that someone will show up with a $3000 deck and crush you and someone else will have a $50 deck and be crushed by you.

[Son_of_the_Suns]

Originally Posted by zer0faults

Its similar to a Lattice Forge Disk lock. Do all of you guys really sit there and wait for the 1/1 Myr they have out to kill everyone, or do you scoop to get to another game?

No, I check my hand and board over and over again to find a way I can prevent the Arcum player from winning. I still try to win, and sometimes, this is actually the case. If I don't find a way, I scoop - but that doesn't mean that I think disk lock shouldn't be played. It just means that I accept that the game has come to an end. That is the moment when I start to think about how to defeat the Arcum player next time.

[Mishrae]

I feel if you overreact to someone being a troll give them a reason to continue doing it because they get off on irritating people . The best way to combat those types of people is to not give them the satisfaction of losing your cool and shuffle up for the next game or find a new group to play with.

[K405]

Originally Posted by Epochalyptik

Although EDH began as a casual format, I see no reason why it has to stay that way. Let it evolve based on the players' needs and wants. If you play your precon Commander deck and you want a low-intensity game with a lot of silly effects and no "serious" players, that should not interfere with my desire to have a high-level game with a bunch of ruthless combo-control decks. No one can say the format should be casual or competitive, and if they try to then they are wrong. EDH is both. Your playgroup is what happens to be one or the other.

Yes because all formats have to become competitive formats once they get popular. A good reason to keep it casual is to keep prices down on "staple" cards. Another good reason is to reduce the overall player dissatisfaction. Yet another good reason to keep it casual is to keep it friendly to new players. I've seen countless people attend FNM and then quit playing magic. I've seen people show up at a prerelease, get their packs, and leave. More often than not the reason I hear for why is "I'd rather have fun playing than deal with these jerks who think it's a job" or similar comments. (Not calling anyone a jerk, just stating that I've heard others address competitive players as such). Competitive play can be friendly, I won't say it can't, but it's far to often it turns what should be a fun game into a million dollar poker stare off with new players getting trounced and losing interest in the game all together. When I hear "competitive" players saying they're glad there are so many new people, because it's so many easy points and easy wins it makes me feel disgusted with the game. When I see people running netdecked T1 decks in an FNM because they know the people who are regulars there aren't running T1 they're running their own homebrew decks and trying to just have a good night it makes me feel like the average "competitive" player is just going to be a jerk to people for the sake of his/her ego. Fortunately I know some competitive players who aren't like that so I know it's not everyone, but it certainly is some.

Aside from that point, you're right. It isn't a purely casual or a purely competitive format. It's better suited to casual play than competitive play. It always has been and will be. It can certainly be either, and everyone should adapt to it the way they enjoy playing and find others who share their feelings on the game to play with.

Originally Posted by Epochalyptik

As far as events go, your LGS (or the TO) will set the guidelines. If you don't like them, don't play in the event. If you do play, then don't get angry when someone shows up with a deck that isn't of the same caliber as yours; organized EDH is like any other format - people build different styles and levels of deck. Nobody is forcing you to take part in the event; if you participate then you accept the possibility that someone will show up with a $3000 deck and crush you and someone else will have a $50 deck and be crushed by you.

No one is forcing mister $3000 deck to ruin everyone else's good time either. Not all events have to be Pro Tour finals. You can host an EDH event just for fun. Though you will always have Spike show up to bully the other players to his way of playing, it doesn't mean it's the only way or the right way.

[Epochalyptik]

Originally Posted by K405

Yes because all formats have to become competitive formats once they get popular. A good reason to keep it casual is to keep prices down on "staple" cards. Another good reason is to reduce the overall player dissatisfaction. Yet another good reason to keep it casual is to keep it friendly to new players. I've seen countless people attend FNM and then quit playing magic. I've seen people show up at a prerelease, get their packs, and leave. More often than not the reason I hear for why is "I'd rather have fun playing than deal with these jerks who think it's a job" or similar comments. (Not calling anyone a jerk, just stating that I've heard others address competitive players as such). Competitive play can be friendly, I won't say it can't, but it's far to often it turns what should be a fun game into a million dollar poker stare off with new players getting trounced and losing interest in the game all together. When I hear "competitive" players saying they're glad there are so many new people, because it's so many easy points and easy wins it makes me feel disgusted with the game. When I see people running netdecked T1 decks in an FNM because they know the people who are regulars there aren't running T1 they're running their own homebrew decks and trying to just have a good night it makes me feel like the average "competitive" player is just going to be a jerk to people for the sake of his/her ego. Fortunately I know some competitive players who aren't like that so I know it's not everyone, but it certainly is some.

How exactly do you propose to "keep it casual?" I don't believe that restrictions should be imposed that force the format to be as good as it could be. If you and your playgroup want to customize the rules to exclude some of the higher-power combos and cards in the format, then by all means go for it. I absolutely disagree that the format in its entirety should be "kept casual" though. That shuts half of the players out right there and only to protect the less hardcore ones. Learning who to play with is as essential a process as learning how to play. We shouldn't be trying to define EDH, we should be trying to define playgroups.

As for the players showing up to events, nobody is saying that a hardcore player ruins the experience for everybody. You will have some people that feel that way and others who love to take it as a challenge. If you don't want that kind of player entering into an event, then design the event differently and restrict or ban certain strategies or cards. I went to one of my LGSs and took first in an EDH tourney playing a high-caliber combo-control deck against some lower-level players, but not one person complained that they weren't having fun because of my deck or strategy.

[Epochalyptik]

I used to play a Korlash, Heir to Blackblade deck that had an infinite mana combo and Exsanguinate in it, but the combo was slow and difficult to put together and I hadn't even realized it was in the deck at the time I built it. The deck was built to win via general damage and played a lot of equipment, but people would still give me a hard time because I could pull out a win when I was about to lose if nobody checked my boardstate. They didn't take into account that for every game I won via Exsanguinate, I won 5 others through combat.

Moral of the story: people will whine about anything in the game they aren't pleased with. I'm just fed up with those same people trying to get cards officially banned because they can't afford to play them or don't like when they get beat by them. If you aren't pleased with something in the format, then ban it in your playgroup. If you don't like that my BUG deck goes infinite, ask me not to play in your games. I'll go find another group that enjoys the same things in a game that I do. If you let me play knowing my deck and strategy (and keep in mind that I'm not playing for the sake of beating up on all the less expensive decks), then you've no right to complain if I win that way.

[ISBPathfinder]

Merged: "QQ more...." into this thread. The topic was too similar to warrant a separate thread.