MTG Salvation

Can this guy find its place in the stucked cc5 section of green? Or is he "just" a stupid beater, that not good enough?

He's my next favorite 5-drop, outside the ones I run. So I'd guess he'd fit right in at the 540-ish level.

At 500 cards, I have nothing I'm willing to cut for this card. I like all my current 4-6 drops better.

Cheers,
rant

We will include him next update. He has a lot of potential, but he also has a clear weakness. Only testing will show what is more important, the occasional 4/4 for 5 or the powerfull beating he can deliver.

90% of the creatures in cube die to terminate so thats not a factor to me. 5 Mana for 12 power is too good to pass up.

Quote from Torggo

90% of the creatures in cube die to terminate so thats not a factor to me. 5 Mana for 12 power is too good to pass up.

I only have 1 5+cc creature that fails the test in the entire cube.

Quote from Cyno

Most of the constructed talk about this guy has been about how awesome he was in block. A block which had like 1-2 ways to kill him and short of a miracle Terminus or Devastating Tide nothing that could deal with him at instant speed.
Cube however is full of removal that hits him. He fails the terminate test pretty hard, more so if you attack your soulbound guy into a blocker. He does have a huge impact when not dealt with, 12 power for 5 is pretty amazing.
All in all, I think he barely doesn't make it, but the correct route would probably be to test him.

Victim of Night

Though your point definitely still stands.

This is a card I'm on the fence about. It's another one that I had at the pre-release, where I was very impressed with it. But that was sealed deck. All of the arguments for and against apply, but I agree with those who have reserved judgment until they've tested in the cube environment. This really is one of those cards that you can't tell until you cast it a few times.

Quote from eidolon232

You can't just throw the green 5 mana cards and the ones in the other colors together, since a green 5 plays more like a 4 drop for the other colors thanks to all the mana acceleration.
If our opponent tries to advance his own side of the board, he often doesn't have the mana open to deal with such a giant creature the turn it enters play.
After that point your opponent has a 1 turn window to deal with our 8/8 or you just win.

Sounds like Moltensteel Dragon. Do you have removal or not? :dieroll:

Moltensteel Dragon also doesn't require another creature in play (and to survive) to be good, and it also has evasion.

Like I said, I don't think it's bad, but I don't think it's going to make its way into smaller lists. 5 mana is a big investment for a card that's contingent on other creatures (to be available and survive), is weak to removal, and has no evasion of its own. Making this guy a 6/6 by having the ability +2/+2 and trample would've made him far better. You don't have to chump him forever, just once, so you can find an answer to him or the creature he's paired with.

I find the comparison to Moltensteel Dragon pretty apt. The creature can run away with the game if uncontested, but it's not hard to disrupt.

I still had Mycoloth in my cube so he instantly took that spot, and yes they could chump him and then deal with him or his soulbonded mate, but 12 power for 5 is awesome, especially in green, and it encourages them to deal with the +4/+4 with haste first, unless they have instant removal but even then you are still going 1 card for 1 card. In RG he absolutely shines, as if his soulbond mate dies you can throw down a little haster and pair it with him instantly making a goblin guide or chandra's phoenix a 6/6. BG doesn't care about you removing him as they will just get him back, UG will counter whatever you try to kill it with, and wg will have already drained the opponents removal spells by making them deal with all the powerful 2/3/4 drops. Pairing him with a Mirran Crusader brings twelve damage the turn he comes out!

Yes he dies to terminate...but you still made them use their terminate.

Quote from Rathkeaux »

Yes he dies to terminate...but you still made them use their terminate.

This is a "pro" for 1 and 2cc creatures that draw removal. It's a "con" on creatures that cost 5 mana. Just as an FYI.

Is there a thread that describes these various "tests" that people are always referring to? I've picked up most of what people are meaning just from reading many posts, but a thread that describes "The Terminate Test" might be useful. (For example, this is the first time that I've seen reference to the point that wtwlf123 is making here.

It's a simple case of resource advantage. If you're using a 2cc card to 1-for-1 your opponent, it's good for you if you "answer" a card that costs 3 or more mana (and really good if the card you destroy is 2 or 3 times the cost of your card), and not so good if you use it against a 1 or 2cc card. Resource advantage is a part of the broader component of tempo theory.

And yes, there's a "removal test" thread somewhere in the cube subforum.

If Vorapede hadn't just been printed, I've have put this card in for testing. As it stands though, the Vorapede is gonna take some shifting. He's a monster.

Quote from Goodking

If Vorapede hadn't just been printed, I've have put this card in for testing. As it stands though, the Vorapede is gonna take some shifting. He's a monster.

This is the main reason why Wolfir Silverheart may not make my cube: Its slot has just been taken. By a card I like more. Still, the Wolfir will get tested tomorrow. Maybe he replaces a 6-drop.

I agree with wtwlf, that +2/+2 and trample would have been better in most cases. As he is, he is almost a vanilla.

He is being considered only for his pure power, the 12 power for 5, which is even conditional.

All green creatures I put in cube is either
- Ramp / Mana
- ETB abilty providing card advantage (destroys something or gives tokens)
- some sort of resistance (Hexproof, regeneration, undying, persist, Genesis)
- Evasion (trample, the boas' landwalk)
The higher the cc, better if they have more than one of these. (Woodfall Primus, for example, has all)

Exceptions of course are the occasional Tarmo / Scavenging Ooze which is really powerful for a very low investment in mana. (Although I dont have them yet due to availability)

For those reasons I wouldn't be putting him in. He is a high risk/high reward card which I dont like for my green cards.

Quote from wtwlf123

This is a "pro" for 1 and 2cc creatures that draw removal. It's a "con" on creatures that cost 5 mana. Just as an FYI.

I would agree with that for other colors, but not for green. Green usually has a lot of ramp in cube, making this a turn four drop potentially, and if your opponents holding back on a swamp and a mountain then play something else to bait out the terminate, but you are playing green so you should be outpacing him on mana development anyway; granted he is not as durable as Vorapede, but he costs less green and has more of a surprise factor. Cube is filled with powerful creatures, and making any of them +4/+4 while at the same time getting another creature is something I'm willing to gamble their only terminate on. If they axe him, drop primeval the next turn. All of the cards in cube are situational and I think his positive situations are worth his inclusion. I'm going to be testing him at least.

I think this card is primarily good for those that run all the mana dudes. I's just bonkers with bop, a mana elf, and even better with Devoted Druid. I'll definatly give him a chance.

Wolfir Silverheart and Devoted Druid is quite the combo. But at 450 I just have so many other 5 drops that I like more.

Quote from Rathkeaux »

I would agree with that for other colors, but not for green.

Just because the creature is green doesn't mean you shouldn't want value against removal from your 5+cc creatures.

This guy is too good not to play except for maybe at 360-450. If they dont have the immediate removal its 12 power for 5 mana.

I'd play it at 540. I just don't have room for it in 360/450 lists I'd put together.

Quote from Torggo

This guy is too good not to play except for maybe at 360-450. If they dont have the immediate removal its 12 power for 5 mana.

Don't forget that you still need another attack-capable creature. It isn't just a auto 12 power like Precursor is 9 for 5.

There are also quite a few very good 5s in green, such as Thornling, Wickerbough Elder, Vorapede...and possibly my favorite dark horse recent addition, Kessig Cagebreakers. Might be one of my favorite cards in Cube post-sweeper, because it usually attacks for 10+!

-AA