I've seen several cube drafts on Channel Fireball now in which the Rider has absolutely slain. Remember, it's target permanent, not just a creature. Is he worth considering at 450? Only if your blue section is more tempo based than normal?
The Channel Fireball crew's opponents have been really bad, Tradewind is easy to play against and is a 1/4 for 4 mana. And of course being blue means the competition is stiff and you're probably not playing a ton of creatures.
tradewind rider is a house, and it's easier than you think to completely shut down or even regress an opponent's mana development.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
I'll enjoy watching all the whiners eat crow monday.
I have a lot of experience with Tradewind Rider, as he was a pet card of one of my cubers. His day is long past. For every game he dominates, there are five he is a 1/4 flyer for 3U. Frankly, if you can guarantee a hoard of creatures on the board, there are better things to do with them than Boomerang.
I had him in my original list and he just wasn't impressive enough when other options were considered. He only fits into token strategies where you have extra creatures to tap that aren't exactly big as of yet, but even then you're essentially trading a lightning bolt for a boomerang each turn if you're not using it to bounce something that's going to kill you faster. More so, in my cube four toughness was the magic number that I wanted to be easily dealt with, so his back side wasn't particularly a major upside.
i'm not sure why everyone has this "needs an army" mentality with this card. a mana elf and a mishra's factory can easily mean that by turn 3 they can be stone dead to twr if they don't have an answer. this guys is seriously one of the top cards i'm looking for in any kind of u/g or u/w blink or tokens deck.
e: not to mention that the decks that want him most are the decks that easily will have a sizable board presence, and plenty of citp bodies for him to rebuy. not sure what decks people are playing him in that he's "some 1/4 flyer". you have to build around him a bit to be sure, but his upside is gamebreaking.
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
i'm not sure why everyone has this "needs an army" mentality with this card. a mana elf and a mishra's factory can easily mean that by turn 3 they can be stone dead to twr if they don't have an answer. this guys is seriously one of the top cards i'm looking for in any kind of u/g or u/w blink or tokens deck.
This is the problem. Even in your "ideal" situation of mana elf + mishras + Tradewind Rider, I would almost always rather have any other 4 drop and start attacking instead of spending three mana (elf + land + mishras) and three creatures attacks to stall. And this is all under the optimistic scenario that they can't kill a 1/1, or and artifact/land by turn 4 (or for that matter, mount an aggressive position that doesn't fold to one bounce a turn). And again, this is about the best case scenario.
Sure, there are decks where he is good, but there are very, very few decks where he is much better than Sower, Glen Elandra, Venser, or Dungeon Geists, and there are a ton of decks where they are much, much better than the rider.
e: not to mention that the decks that want him most are the decks that easily will have a sizable board presence, and plenty of citp bodies for him to rebuy. not sure what decks people are playing him in that he's "some 1/4 flyer". you have to build around him a bit to be sure, but his upside is gamebreaking.
Decks that can reliably keep three boards on the body, and would rather sit around bouncing things (at the cost of three creatures per turn) than go aggressive are few and far between in my cube.
It's a decent support card for blue tempo in larger lists. But the days of it being one of the best blue creatures in the game have been long eclipsed.
This is the problem. Even in your "ideal" situation of mana elf + mishras + Tradewind Rider,
that's not ideal, that's fairly easy. i think people get so caught up in the mantra "don't get into bcs mentality" that they start thinking any described scenario is absurd.
I would almost always rather have any other 4 drop and start attacking instead of spending three mana (elf + land + mishras) and three creatures attacks to stall.
Decks that can reliably keep three boards on the body, and would rather sit around bouncing things (at the cost of three creatures per turn) than go aggressive are few and far between in my cube.
one of the problems is that you're not thinking of this as an "attack" itself. putting pressure on their resources while advancing your own position is an aggressive stance, and it's unfortunate that people seem to think the only time that's a viable strategy is if you're slinging molten rains.
And this is all under the optimistic scenario that they can't kill a 1/1, or and artifact/land by turn 4 (or for that matter, mount an aggressive position that doesn't fold to one bounce a turn). And again, this is about the best case scenario.
again, no it's not. yes they are going to have answers a lot of the time, but being blue you will also often have ways to defend this formation.
Sure, there are decks where he is good, but there are very, very few decks where he is much better than Sower, Glen Elandra, Venser, or Dungeon Geists, and there are a ton of decks where they are much, much better than the rider.
that's basically a list of some of his best friends. i'd say he's about on par with them (in my weird cube) certainly has higher upside. i'm not saying he's like 'the best blue guy' or anything, just that if you're not playing him in like a 450+ cube you're missing out on a hell of a dude, and depriving blink of one of it's enablers.
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needs you to unlock the "3 creatures on the board in a blue deck"- achievement first
the rest of your points i simply disagree with. this one is just a silly talking point. you're talking like this is some kind of patron wizard you would only conceivably play in a mono blue deck, when in reality you're likely heavy into another color, if not just splashing the twr himself. similar to tarmogoyf being a "great blue creature", this guy is a "great green creature".
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
In what situation are you starting to bounce things on turn 3? You'd have to have a mana dork turn 1, a mox turn 1 or 2, and two lands turns 1 and 2 that have to produce U and G... and a Mishra's Factory on turn 3 or some other creature... You've spent 6 cards to get a single boomerang effect and a total of 3 turns. That's just silly.
As for bouncing your own cards, well it's cute and can have some application in the Crystal Shard/Erratic Portal deck, but it still seems clunky there.
In what situation are you starting to bounce things on turn 3? You'd have to have a mana dork turn 1, a mox turn 1 or 2, and two lands turns 1 and 2 that have to produce U and G... and a Mishra's Factory on turn 3 or some other creature... You've spent 6 cards to get a single boomerang effect and a total of 3 turns. That's just silly.
yeah, it is silly. good thing it's a straw man and not my actual argument.
first of all i never said you could reasonably expect to start bouncing on turn 3. i said they could be cold to it on 3. so they have turn two or three, then your turn three or four if you run this out they are now in the situation of being faced with a problem. even assuming they did nothing on their three and can now spend some or all of that mana toward the problem, they only have this window of now to the end of their turn to actually stop him from starting up.
"spent six cards and three turns" is really misleading, you didn't lose those cards you just deployed them and still have access to them. they're all going to continue to do things in your deck, and in the above scenerio even if they were to swords him on the spot and you had no backup you're still way ahead on mana, and they're already spent their best removal, so i don't really think "oh man, this twr sucks and now i am doomed" is a logical reaction to have there.
just like aggressively running anything out asap this is risky, but it is within his realm of possibility, especially in a powered cube full of broken mana that makes it that much easier to get him down with backup early.
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Going to side somewhat with VibeBox here. I can't see how Rider is "easy to kill" unless all nonblack creatures with toughness greater than or equal to four and without shroud/regeneration/persist are "easy to kill." He doesn't die to Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Incinerate, Volcanic Hammer, etc. Once you've unlocked the three creatures achievement, he can bounce himself in response to removal.
It's also worth pointing out that with him and another creature on board, any third creature that comes down is immediately useful, and not just as a blocker. When he's up and running, TWR isn't a Boomerang; he's a Capsize lock where you're tapping three dudes instead of paying 6 each turn.
yeah, it is silly. good thing it's a straw man and not my actual argument.
first of all i never said you could reasonably expect to start bouncing on turn 3.
Ok, you're ridiculous...
a mana elf and a mishra's factory can easily mean that by turn 3 they can be stone dead to twr if they don't have an answer.
a good analogy, but to be fair capsize is def better, though twr can be close in a blink deck, but only if it's like the nut blinkriders build replete with ghostly flicker, eternal witness ect.
Edit:
no, you're being ridiculous. did you even read the rest of either of my posts?
a mana elf and a mishra's factory can easily mean that by turn 3 they can be stone dead to twr if they don't have an answer.
this doesn't say you can bounce on three. it says you can easily set up a situation where they "are cold" to it by turn three. perhaps i was a bit vague in the first post, but now you're just being rude and a bit dense, imo.
edit2: also, lol if anyone actually believes that a well built u/g deck wouldn't find it "fairly easy" to successfully play a mana elf and [any other dude].
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
If I wanted to play a card that tapped my dudes to slow my opponent I would sooner have Opposition. I used to run Rider in my cube and it was a fun effect but too easy to disrupt. Even though Rider itself is somewhat resilient he needs two other dudes to help.
Edit: if I had a promo version I'd probably run it, but only because if the Tristram Shandy flavour text. The book is a work of genius, and I can't believe it was published two and a half centuries ago.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Edit: if I had a promo version I'd probably run it, but only because if the Tristram Shandy flavour text. The book is a work of genius, and I can't believe it was published two and a half centuries ago.
/agree. I love how old cards had quotes from great works of literature.
I have him in my 540 but I'm missing some killer 4 drops that he might be the victim for if I ever aquire them. He's a decent control creature, but is only useful in that archtype so isn't as good as some other choices that work in multiple ones.
The main problem with Tradewind Rider is that it is so slooooooow. That was ok when creatures were worse (you had bad creatures to tap for the cost and your opponent's bad creatures didn't beat you down so fast), but today it just binds too many ressources for an effect that is less powerful than it once was. The only deck where it is still good against is the one with little removal and almost no creatures.
Tradewind Rider is a fine blocker and does fine in a variety of decks. It's best fit is a U/G/x shell with token makers, but it's not necessary.
He's not good enough for 360, no arguments about that, but in larger cubes he's still a definite include. A manaless bounce every turn is some-good. There are so many interactions once it gets going, and it doesn't take that much to start.
He's not good enough for 360, no arguments about that, but in larger cubes he's still a definite include. A manaless bounce every turn is some-good. There are so many interactions once it gets going, and it doesn't take that much to start.
A manaless bounce every turn is good. A manaless bounce that binds two other creatures is significantly less so. Tradewind Rider is not a bad card... it's just that other creatures got better.
I've seen several cube drafts on Channel Fireball now in which the Rider has absolutely slain. Remember, it's target permanent, not just a creature. Is he worth considering at 450? Only if your blue section is more tempo based than normal?
I think he barely squeezes into 600 cubes.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Who's eating crow?
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
e: not to mention that the decks that want him most are the decks that easily will have a sizable board presence, and plenty of citp bodies for him to rebuy. not sure what decks people are playing him in that he's "some 1/4 flyer". you have to build around him a bit to be sure, but his upside is gamebreaking.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
This is the problem. Even in your "ideal" situation of mana elf + mishras + Tradewind Rider, I would almost always rather have any other 4 drop and start attacking instead of spending three mana (elf + land + mishras) and three creatures attacks to stall. And this is all under the optimistic scenario that they can't kill a 1/1, or and artifact/land by turn 4 (or for that matter, mount an aggressive position that doesn't fold to one bounce a turn). And again, this is about the best case scenario.
Sure, there are decks where he is good, but there are very, very few decks where he is much better than Sower, Glen Elandra, Venser, or Dungeon Geists, and there are a ton of decks where they are much, much better than the rider.
Decks that can reliably keep three boards on the body, and would rather sit around bouncing things (at the cost of three creatures per turn) than go aggressive are few and far between in my cube.
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that's not ideal, that's fairly easy. i think people get so caught up in the mantra "don't get into bcs mentality" that they start thinking any described scenario is absurd.
one of the problems is that you're not thinking of this as an "attack" itself. putting pressure on their resources while advancing your own position is an aggressive stance, and it's unfortunate that people seem to think the only time that's a viable strategy is if you're slinging molten rains.
again, no it's not. yes they are going to have answers a lot of the time, but being blue you will also often have ways to defend this formation.
that's basically a list of some of his best friends. i'd say he's about on par with them (in my weird cube) certainly has higher upside. i'm not saying he's like 'the best blue guy' or anything, just that if you're not playing him in like a 450+ cube you're missing out on a hell of a dude, and depriving blink of one of it's enablers.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
the rest of your points i simply disagree with. this one is just a silly talking point. you're talking like this is some kind of patron wizard you would only conceivably play in a mono blue deck, when in reality you're likely heavy into another color, if not just splashing the twr himself. similar to tarmogoyf being a "great blue creature", this guy is a "great green creature".
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
As for bouncing your own cards, well it's cute and can have some application in the Crystal Shard/Erratic Portal deck, but it still seems clunky there.
yeah, it is silly. good thing it's a straw man and not my actual argument.
first of all i never said you could reasonably expect to start bouncing on turn 3. i said they could be cold to it on 3. so they have turn two or three, then your turn three or four if you run this out they are now in the situation of being faced with a problem. even assuming they did nothing on their three and can now spend some or all of that mana toward the problem, they only have this window of now to the end of their turn to actually stop him from starting up.
"spent six cards and three turns" is really misleading, you didn't lose those cards you just deployed them and still have access to them. they're all going to continue to do things in your deck, and in the above scenerio even if they were to swords him on the spot and you had no backup you're still way ahead on mana, and they're already spent their best removal, so i don't really think "oh man, this twr sucks and now i am doomed" is a logical reaction to have there.
just like aggressively running anything out asap this is risky, but it is within his realm of possibility, especially in a powered cube full of broken mana that makes it that much easier to get him down with backup early.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
It's also worth pointing out that with him and another creature on board, any third creature that comes down is immediately useful, and not just as a blocker. When he's up and running, TWR isn't a Boomerang; he's a Capsize lock where you're tapping three dudes instead of paying 6 each turn.
Ok, you're ridiculous...
Edit:
no, you're being ridiculous. did you even read the rest of either of my posts?
this doesn't say you can bounce on three. it says you can easily set up a situation where they "are cold" to it by turn three. perhaps i was a bit vague in the first post, but now you're just being rude and a bit dense, imo.
edit2: also, lol if anyone actually believes that a well built u/g deck wouldn't find it "fairly easy" to successfully play a mana elf and [any other dude].
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Edit: if I had a promo version I'd probably run it, but only because if the Tristram Shandy flavour text. The book is a work of genius, and I can't believe it was published two and a half centuries ago.
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/agree. I love how old cards had quotes from great works of literature.
Fissure.
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Tradewind Rider is a fine blocker and does fine in a variety of decks. It's best fit is a U/G/x shell with token makers, but it's not necessary.
He's not good enough for 360, no arguments about that, but in larger cubes he's still a definite include. A manaless bounce every turn is some-good. There are so many interactions once it gets going, and it doesn't take that much to start.
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I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
A manaless bounce every turn is good. A manaless bounce that binds two other creatures is significantly less so. Tradewind Rider is not a bad card... it's just that other creatures got better.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG