I have run in her in my cube ever since Rise of the Eldrazi came out and always found her very solid. She can start Looting on turn 2 and later on, when you have 4 spare mana around you can turn her into a pure card advantage engine.
However, lately I've seen some dislike towards her, for example in this article.
I prefer Looter en-Kor, but this is the next best looter effect. She improves in slower cubes (longer games = more activations) and cubes that support graveyard themes.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
This card has never really done anything for us in my cube, so I cut her. I should qualify my statement by saying that my cube doesn't support reanimator, or really any kind of graveyard shenanigans. I think repeatable looting effects get way more powerful when the discard "cost" can be worked into a benefit. For us, though, aggro decks had no use for her, and control decks had far more powerful card filtering options.
Really good card. At level one the looting will help you play out your hand more quickly ensuring you get a good mix of lands and spells and once your hand is played out you go up to level three to draw more gas. Best blue 1 drop in cube.
Excellent. Blue needs more playable one-drops. I'm still a little confused as to how Delver is seeing so much play, he seems so unreliable to me!
I agree, I've cut him from my cube, he never flips, and even trying to play more instant and sorceries, he just doesnt. May I ask what he is seeing so much play in? Like what decks? How many instant/sorceries are in said decks hes played in?
I agree, I've cut him from my cube, he never flips, and even trying to play more instant and sorceries, he just doesnt. May I ask what he is seeing so much play in? Like what decks? How many instant/sorceries are in said decks hes played in?
Our group has had success with him mainly in Ux control, using available mana to pump him to a looter before the fatties come out. If he sticks around, he makes use of unspent late game mana to turn into card advantage as a bonus. Reanimator and counterburn should be a couple other useful decks for him but I haven't seen him in action there.
Our group has had success with him mainly in Ux control, using available mana to pump him to a looter before the fatties come out. If he sticks around, he makes use of unspent late game mana to turn into card advantage as a bonus. Reanimator and counterburn should be a couple other useful decks for him but I haven't seen him in action there.
I was talking about Delver, I am sold on Cryptologist, she seems very good
Cryptologist is great, I ran him in my 360 and he never failed to disappoint. He's great from so many different angles. I would cube with him in any cube.
Agreed that Cryptologist is pretty much awesome. Saying it can be worse than Merfolk Looter is technically correct, but it's minmaxing taken too far, the possible worse-ness is by far outweighed by the possible better-ness.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
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*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
The fact that it's one of the very very few cubeable blue one-drops counts in its favour, too, particularly when the average blue deck doesn't generally have that much to do on T1, particularly on the play. I like it considerably more than Merfolk Looter or Thought Courier and I'd reinclude it at 450. The end game potential is nuts for a one-drop, like Wolfbitten Captive in green. I saw it go into Archivist mode fairly often, as it's not threatening up until that point.
Enclave Cryptologist is still fantastic, and easily the second best after Looter il-Kor. I consider it a 1-drop even though you need to invest at least 2 more for it to do anything. After all, the initial cast is something you can do on turn 1 or any time you have a spare mana. It's not that unusual to run it out on turn 1, then not start leveling it up until later if you have better things to do with your mana.
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I count all my levelers where there CMC is since I can level them up at any time. And since the effect is repeatable, unlike something like Morph, where would it stop? It's not really a 2 either, if you play it and level it in the same turn. It's more like a 7-drop if you get it into Archivist mode. Morph has exactly 2 costs. The 3 and the morph cost. Leveling is different, since there's no "set" sink value once it's been cast.
Additionally, morph costs need to be identified not only for curve purposes, but also for color identity and mana demand. Like with Exalted Angel, counting it as a 3-drop or evaluating it only by its face-down cost would result in it being classified incorrectly. I need to be able to reliably reach 2WW or I can't include the Angel in my deck. Leveling, on the other hand, doesn't have those restrictions. If it's classified at U, I can also pay for the 1U leveling cost, so it's already classified appropriately. Casting the Cryptologist as a 1-drop is actually the more color-demanding requirement.
Also there is no looter at CMC 2 that loots on turn 2 without a moxed-out play. By being a one drop, Enclave allows that turn 2 loot which is huge when evaluating it.
I think we have to treat every card individually, every morph just like every leveler.
I think they're different enough to be classified differently. The investment for level-up is repeatable, which changes its requirements, and its curve/mana impact. Do you count Figure of Destiny as anything other than a 1-drop? It costs more than one mana and interferes with your ability to cast a 2-drop if you level it. Do you count Pack Rat as a 3-drop? It's not good until an additional 2B (or more) is spent on it. Do you count Swords as 5-costed cards? They do nothing until an additional 2 is spent on them. How about Shackles? The list is endless. I think you need to measure the impact on the curve in combination with mana requirements.
Like, I'm not saying you're wrong to want to classify them that way, just trying to explain why I have them arranged the way I do. I think that repeatable-cost abilities function differently than single-shot costs, and I classify the cards with that in mind accordingly.
Also there is no looter at CMC 2 that loots on turn 2 without a moxed-out play. By being a one drop, Enclave allows that turn 2 loot which is huge when evaluating it.
This argument makes no sense to me in two ways: First, it ONLY loots on turn two, when you have spend your whole turn two and paid the 1U,so it's requires a turn two investment like any other 2-drop. Second, there is not a single white 4-drop, that attacks on turn 4, but Exalted Angel does. It's considered a 4 drop still, but that "haste"-attack is huge when evaluating it.
Right, but compared to other looters which get nothing for that turn 2 investment, you get the loot from Enclave, and that only comes from being a 1 drop. It's almost like you're suspending a loot play or casting a turn 2 looting spell, except you get to keep on doing it. So for U + 1U I get a looter and the looting effect, whereas I have to wait until t3 to do anything with other looters. However, I am not forced to make that payment for the t3 loot--if I have actually something better to do with my mana on t2 then I can spend that 1U later on as well, whereas with other looters you have to make that initial 1U investment before anything else. If I wait with another looter until t3 to cast the spell, then I only have the t4 loot option available. By classifying it as a one drop, it's like you're recognizing that the cost can be paid whenever you're ready to instantly do that loot AND you're addressing one of the main strengths of the card i.e. looting t2; you're right that the 1U cost is real, but so is being able to set up that 1U cost any turn from t2 going forward.
It's not just curve, but also mana demand. When I lay my curve out, I need to place Cryptologist in the 1cc creature slot to make sure I'm running enough untapped sources of blue to cast it there. Similarly to Exalted Angel, where I need to make sure that I can hit double-white by T4. It does me no good to analyze Angel as a 3 when deckbuilding, and it would also be doing my mana a disservice by considering Cryptologist a 2-drop. I need to organize my cards where their peak mana impact is going to be so I can deckbuild properly. Things often shake out differently during gameplay, but while I'm deckbuilding I want to organize them in accordance with where their demand is the most difficult.
One should list his cards according to the highest mana investment along your curve you HAVE TO invest to get a good deal.
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Quote from ravnic »
Same with Vedalken Shackles. Those are cards with activated abilities you're using multiple times generally and always get something for it. Thats what the cards do. Cryptologist always demands that one activation to turn from "not even a card" into the looter you're looking for.
That's different from Swords and Shackles ...how, exactly? What do those cards do before you spend at least one 2 activation on them? They do literally nothing before you spend additional mana on them. At least Cryptlogist can chump-block after you spend a mana on it.
Quote from ravnic »
Now, please, explain me how this is any different.
You may want to relax a little bit. You're talking about classification here, not inclusion. It's like debating if Force of Will should be sorted as a 5 or a 0. When you draft it and play it, does it matter? Why exert all this effort over semantics and personal preference?
Quote from ravnic »
Figure of Destiny is a 1-drop that can attack on turn 2 even when you cast a 2-drop.
Sure. As a 1/1. And Cryptologist is still a 1-drop that can block. But that's not why either of those cards are in the cube. You could make the argument that neither Figure or Cryptologist "earns its keep" until you've spent additional mana into it. So they're either both 1's or neither of them are. Same goes with Warden of the First Tree and Joraga Treespeaker too. I elect to count them all as 1cc creatures since that's what makes sense to me, and that's where the most demanding mana impact is.
Quote from ravnic »
That's actually the first argument I've got from you guys, that makes sense to me. So, if Enclave Cryptologist would cost 1 instead of U, would you count it as a 2-drop?
What would be, if it would somehow be possible for Exalted Angel to cost 2W to play it face down, would you consider it a 3-drop then, because you need white mana on turn 3?
1) No, for the reasons listed above. Just because it can be activated on T2 and serve as my 2-drop doesn't mean it has to. I'll wait for the right place in the curve to level it, and use the ability then. So since it doesn't have to take up my 2-drop slot, I'm not going to count it as a 2-drop. Period. But I will count it as a 1cc creature ...because it's a 1cc creature.
2) Probably not, since the demand for 2W is so much easier than 2WW. But Morph is a different beast, and different cube managers like to classify them in different ways. I prefer to watch my mana demand. Other managers simply count it as a 3-drop. Others still will count it as a 6cc card. Or an X since the mana investment isn't set. Exalted Angel is one of those oddball cards that can be classified several different ways and be easily justified as any of them. Just do what makes sense to you.
This thread makes me want to reclassify this card as a 6 drop just to make everyone unhappy.
I don't think it matters where you classify it. I call it a one drop because without it I don't have any blue cards there and that would drive me bonkers.
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My rule for card classification is take things at face value. Yes, this does mean I classify Exalted Angel as a six-drop or Noble Hierarch as green. This doesn't make me ignorant to how the card plays, but it does make things easier than carving out a bunch of exceptions for one-reason or another.
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I have run in her in my cube ever since Rise of the Eldrazi came out and always found her very solid. She can start Looting on turn 2 and later on, when you have 4 spare mana around you can turn her into a pure card advantage engine.
However, lately I've seen some dislike towards her, for example in this article.
What is your evaluation on this card?
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Looter il-Kor is the nutters butters, though.
Your arguments are what swayed me, and I've been happy I listened to you ever since. Cheers.
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I agree, I've cut him from my cube, he never flips, and even trying to play more instant and sorceries, he just doesnt. May I ask what he is seeing so much play in? Like what decks? How many instant/sorceries are in said decks hes played in?
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Our group has had success with him mainly in Ux control, using available mana to pump him to a looter before the fatties come out. If he sticks around, he makes use of unspent late game mana to turn into card advantage as a bonus. Reanimator and counterburn should be a couple other useful decks for him but I haven't seen him in action there.
I was talking about Delver, I am sold on Cryptologist, she seems very good
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450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Additionally, morph costs need to be identified not only for curve purposes, but also for color identity and mana demand. Like with Exalted Angel, counting it as a 3-drop or evaluating it only by its face-down cost would result in it being classified incorrectly. I need to be able to reliably reach 2WW or I can't include the Angel in my deck. Leveling, on the other hand, doesn't have those restrictions. If it's classified at U, I can also pay for the 1U leveling cost, so it's already classified appropriately. Casting the Cryptologist as a 1-drop is actually the more color-demanding requirement.
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I think they're different enough to be classified differently. The investment for level-up is repeatable, which changes its requirements, and its curve/mana impact. Do you count Figure of Destiny as anything other than a 1-drop? It costs more than one mana and interferes with your ability to cast a 2-drop if you level it. Do you count Pack Rat as a 3-drop? It's not good until an additional 2B (or more) is spent on it. Do you count Swords as 5-costed cards? They do nothing until an additional 2 is spent on them. How about Shackles? The list is endless. I think you need to measure the impact on the curve in combination with mana requirements.
Like, I'm not saying you're wrong to want to classify them that way, just trying to explain why I have them arranged the way I do. I think that repeatable-cost abilities function differently than single-shot costs, and I classify the cards with that in mind accordingly.
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Right, but compared to other looters which get nothing for that turn 2 investment, you get the loot from Enclave, and that only comes from being a 1 drop. It's almost like you're suspending a loot play or casting a turn 2 looting spell, except you get to keep on doing it. So for U + 1U I get a looter and the looting effect, whereas I have to wait until t3 to do anything with other looters. However, I am not forced to make that payment for the t3 loot--if I have actually something better to do with my mana on t2 then I can spend that 1U later on as well, whereas with other looters you have to make that initial 1U investment before anything else. If I wait with another looter until t3 to cast the spell, then I only have the t4 loot option available. By classifying it as a one drop, it's like you're recognizing that the cost can be paid whenever you're ready to instantly do that loot AND you're addressing one of the main strengths of the card i.e. looting t2; you're right that the 1U cost is real, but so is being able to set up that 1U cost any turn from t2 going forward.
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Precisely!
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
That's different from Swords and Shackles ...how, exactly? What do those cards do before you spend at least one 2 activation on them? They do literally nothing before you spend additional mana on them. At least Cryptlogist can chump-block after you spend a mana on it.
You may want to relax a little bit. You're talking about classification here, not inclusion. It's like debating if Force of Will should be sorted as a 5 or a 0. When you draft it and play it, does it matter? Why exert all this effort over semantics and personal preference?
Sure. As a 1/1. And Cryptologist is still a 1-drop that can block. But that's not why either of those cards are in the cube. You could make the argument that neither Figure or Cryptologist "earns its keep" until you've spent additional mana into it. So they're either both 1's or neither of them are. Same goes with Warden of the First Tree and Joraga Treespeaker too. I elect to count them all as 1cc creatures since that's what makes sense to me, and that's where the most demanding mana impact is.
1) No, for the reasons listed above. Just because it can be activated on T2 and serve as my 2-drop doesn't mean it has to. I'll wait for the right place in the curve to level it, and use the ability then. So since it doesn't have to take up my 2-drop slot, I'm not going to count it as a 2-drop. Period. But I will count it as a 1cc creature ...because it's a 1cc creature.
2) Probably not, since the demand for 2W is so much easier than 2WW. But Morph is a different beast, and different cube managers like to classify them in different ways. I prefer to watch my mana demand. Other managers simply count it as a 3-drop. Others still will count it as a 6cc card. Or an X since the mana investment isn't set. Exalted Angel is one of those oddball cards that can be classified several different ways and be easily justified as any of them. Just do what makes sense to you.
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I don't think it matters where you classify it. I call it a one drop because without it I don't have any blue cards there and that would drive me bonkers.
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