When phyrexian mana was first spoiled in New Phyrexia there was a great deal of discussion throughout the Magic community as to the ramifications of its existence. In our own community not only did we debate which sweet phyrexian mana cards to include in our cubes but also where in our lists did the phyrexian mana cards belong? Did they belong in their appropriate colored sections? Did they belong in the colorless section? Did some function better as "colorless" while others did not?
I ask this question because in my own cube I organize phyrexian mana cards by their color affiliation, yet cards like Phyrexian Metamorph and Porcelain Legionnaire make decklists all the time without a concern for color, while others, such a Moltensteel Dragon are almost exclusively seen in decks built around the appropriate color.
Though I know that this topic has been discussed before, I think that this is an interesting [MCD] so I'm dredging it up again for discussion in this format.
Just put them where they are played. It's like how something like Jilt with an off-colour kicker would more often than not be played with both colours, whereas one of the the Battlemages might only get played in one of the two.
If you see some phyrexians played more often in off-colour deck, classify it as colourless. Otherwise, put it in the appropriate colour.
I put them in their respective colors, because they're all strictly better when you have all their casting options available. But I see the merits in classifying them as colorless cards too.
But it's been discussed to death, and it ultimately boils down to preference. Are you more comfortable including a colorless card that's intrinsically better when used by a specific color, or more comfortable having a card in one of the colored sections that can be stolen by an off-color deck? In the end, it doesn't really matter. Just put them where you want to.
I know Usman did a poll on his blog on this very topic. You are right - certain cards will see play in any number of decks. The way I look at it the cards which definitely should be listed as colourless are Porcelain Legionnaire, Phyrexian Metamorph, Spellskite and Spined Thopter if you play it.
The real tricky card to classify in my mind is Dismember. I have it listed as a colourless card, yet I would always prefer to be able to play it for some amount of black mana. I really think this is up to your playgroup's tendencies.
I put them in their respective colors, because they're all strictly better when you have all their casting options available.
This is how I see it, too. It saves you a lot of time and head scratching over each individual Phyrexian mana card if you just put them in their respective color and be done with it.
I know Usman did a poll on his blog on this very topic. You are right - certain cards will see play in any number of decks. The way I look at it the cards which definitely should be listed as colourless are Porcelain Legionnaire, Phyrexian Metamorph, Spellskite and Spined Thopter if you play it.
The real tricky card to classify in my mind is Dismember. I have it listed as a colourless card, yet I would always prefer to be able to play it for some amount of black mana. I really think this is up to your playgroup's tendencies.
From personal experience I've only seen Dismember be played in a non-black deck once, and it gets drafted and maindecked regularly.
I classify them as colorless, because I draft the sh*t out of them in all sorts of decks, which isn't true for any other blue, white, or mono color card. I tend to classify cards as I do when I build my deck, and Porcelain Legionnaire sure isn't a white three drop when I'm building my UBTinker deck.
1) They are playable in any color, and Usman's poll showed the majority get played a fair amount in off-color decks.
2) Even if they are strictly better in their appropriate colors, giving those colors access to slightly more cards isn't that big of a deal.
3) I don't see it as that different from other colorless cards that are better in certain colors. For example, Ankh of Mishra is way better in red than any other color because of burn, LD, and aggressive creatures.
I run them in their respective colors in my 360 powered cube, but that's because they don't make the cut in my colorless section, which is stuffed with Moxen and the like. (Well, maybe Phyrexian Metamorph would squeeze in.) If I ever bumped up to 450, or de-powered, I would definitely add all the non-Dismember phyrexian mana cards into the colorless section, though.
I classify them in their respective colors. This is where it makes the most sense to me. At the end of the day, however, it all comes down to preference. Also, for what it's worth, I'd honestly be willing to say that they mostly get played in their respective colors as opposed to being pulled for off color decks; even Legionnaire.
I know Usman did a poll on his blog on this very topic. You are right - certain cards will see play in any number of decks. The way I look at it the cards which definitely should be listed as colourless are Porcelain Legionnaire, Phyrexian Metamorph, Spellskite and Spined Thopter if you play it.
The real tricky card to classify in my mind is Dismember. I have it listed as a colourless card, yet I would always prefer to be able to play it for some amount of black mana. I really think this is up to your playgroup's tendencies.
I agree with this exactly. I play Metamorph, Legionnaire, and Spellskite in colorless, I play Birthing Pod and Dismember in their colors, and when I ran Dragon, he was in red.
It's all about where they see the most play. I think Metamorph sees play in EVERYTHING, I think I've seen Legionnaire in more red/black decks than any other colors, and Spellskite hasn't been in long enough to really determine where he belongs, but I'm leaning towards colorless. The others really don't get played outside of their colors except in corner cases.
I could see the argument for making Dismember colorless, but I'd be doing that more because I want additional slots in black, not because Dismember sees a lot of play in nonblack decks, so that seems wrong.
In my experience, red plays legionnaire the most, followed by black and white and finally green. It's about the same for spined pegasus I mean thopter. They may be marginally better in color, but having cards be flat out played more in colors than its own, then it'd be crazy to categorize it where it sees less play.
I find it really weird to categorize some of those cards in their respective color and some of them as colorless. It's the same type of mana! That's just like putting some hybrid cards into multicolor and some into a single color. I think that's really inconsistent.
Results and where cards get decked should be all that matter. That's like saying kird ape is the same cost as mogg fanatic so it's red. Yes kird ape flat out tells you where to put it, but it is a similar principle. It just takes a bit of work.
Honestly, I don't have a problem with putting hybrid cards into one of their colors. The day that canker abomination gets played off of forests in my C/ube, I'll consider moving it into the golgari section. But as long as green doesn't play the card... it serves no purpose cluttering my gb section
Someone had a pretty eloquent post a few months back about "as played" vs. "as written" or something like that. I think it was Kofusious (yeah, I'm bad with spelling).
We use "as played," so Dismember and Porcelain Legionnaire are colorless while Moltensteel Dragon is red.
Card classification in modern cube design is an increasingly difficult problem. Most cube designers use one of three classification systems: as printed, as played or optimal. As printed means that a card is classified according to the mana cost, e.g., White Knight, Loam Lion and Porcelain Legionnaire are all classified as white cards. As played means that a card is classified where it is played; White Knight is classified as a white card, Loam Lion as a multicolor card and Porcelain Legionnaire as colorless card. Optimal means that where a card plays at its best is relevant for classification; both White Knight and Porcelain Legionnaire are classified as white cards, Loam Lion as multicolor card. Hybrid mana cards like Kitchen Finks, Spectral Procession and Porcelain Legionnaire are hard to classify in the as played classification system. Note that the same is not true for morph creatures in general; a colorless 2/2 creature for 3 is not a cube-worthy card and therefore morph creatures have to be classified by the color of their morph cost. Only morph creatures with a colorless morph cost are problematic (Zombie Cutthroat, Gathan Raiders)
The goal of the as played classification system is to balance the support that each of the five colors gets in the cube. A possible solution for the hybrid mana classification problem that some cube designers adopted is to run a separate hybrid mana section. While this allows to balance the hybrid mana cards in theory, in practice a balanced hybrid mana section leads to the inclusion of mediocre cards because not all color combinations have competitive hybrid mana cards. A hybrid mana section that is not balanced, however, does not help to achieve the stated goal of equal support for all colors.
There are good reasons to use the as played classification system. With a card like Vedalken Shackles that the as printed classification system would classify as colorless, blue gets more support than other colors. The problem of the optimal classification system is that it keeps potentially cube-worthy cards out; Spined Thopter is a competitive aggro creature, but since it has to compete for a blue slot it will not make the cut. The as played classification system solves both problems given in the examples by classifying Vedalken Shackles as a blue card and including Spined Thopter in the colorless section.
The downside of the powerful as played classification system is that for some cards it is not obvious how they are played. A good example for this is Dismember. While it can reasonably be played for 1 and four life, will it actually be played in decks without access to black mana? These situations are not resolvable without creating a slight imbalance. The cube designer has to make a decision based on the play experience in his group. Still, the fact that the other classification systems have at least the same degree of imbalance and the increased flexibility of the as played classification system warrant its application.
This was written when I still cared about balancing the gold section as well. I no longer do. I still use the 'as played' classification, because I still care for balance between the mono color sections and because I want to play Spined Thopter without having to cut a blue card.
tl;dr: it is not really important how you classify your cards, but it is interesting to discuss it none the less
Results and where cards get decked should be all that matter. That's like saying kird ape is the same cost as mogg fanatic so it's red. Yes kird ape flat out tells you where to put it, but it is a similar principle. It just takes a bit of work.
The difference is that people categorize allKird Ape effects either as multicolor or as monocolor. Splitting those cards over the two methods in a single cube would be just as weird as doing so with the Phyrexian mana cards. Trying to find the "right spot" for each individual card is much ado about nothing but the false assurance that the cube is now perfectly balanced colorwise. However, the colors will never be perfectly balanced (unless you go the extra mile of counting colored mana symbols, splitting true multicolor from hybrid etc.) and putting Porcelain Legionnaire into white even if he gets played in 60% nonwhite decks will not cause any noticable balance troubles during draft.
I think Spellskite gets a lot better in blue. Even if I were splitting them between colored and colorless sections, that guy would need to go in blue.
I haven't had him in a pool yet, I've placed it in colorless now because I really want it to be a colorless card. I just have so much less room in blue than any other color, it's so deep. If I find it seeing a lot of play in blue, I'll have to reevaluate it as a card in cube.
The difference is that people categorize allKird Ape effects either as multicolor or as monocolor. Splitting those cards over the two methods in a single cube would be just as weird as doing so with the Phyrexian mana cards. Trying to find the "right spot" for each individual card is much ado about nothing but the false assurance that the cube is now perfectly balanced colorwise. However, the colors will never be perfectly balanced (unless you go the extra mile of counting colored mana symbols, splitting true multicolor from hybrid etc.) and putting Porcelain Legionnaire into white even if he gets played in 60% nonwhite decks will not cause any noticable balance troubles during draft.
I don't know that I agree with this. For one, a lot of people play Wild Nacatl as a green creature, since it's a 2/2 for 1 in multiple color combinations, and is occasionally a 3/3. Beyond that, though, I do think that categorizing Porcelain Legionnaire as a white card decreases the number of white cards in the draft. If the R/B aggro player takes Porcelain Legionnaire, that's one less card the white drafter has available to them. If you think in the context of 50 or 60 white cards, that's not a lot, but if you think in the terms of 16-17 white 1-2 drops creatures (as in my cube), it definitely makes a dent.
I certainly wouldn't want to play 1 less blue card in my list in order to give every color access to Phyrexian Metamorph.
Almost everyone has X (actual amount depending on the size of your cube) multicolor cards for each guild. If someone runs X UW true multicolor cards and X RB cards with one of them being Murderous Redcap, he essentially has 0.5 more red cards and 0.5 more black cards than he has white and blue cards. Yet this is an imbalance almost nobody is trying to fix. Just accept that those imbalances exist and don't worry too much where you place every single card with an unsual and flexible mana cost.
Of course it is your choice to do it anyway and I have already spent too much time on this matter. I just leave now with my head shaking and let you* do whatever you want.
* "You" being everyone trying hard to find the "best" place for their Phyrexian mana cards and nobody in particular.
I ask this question because in my own cube I organize phyrexian mana cards by their color affiliation, yet cards like Phyrexian Metamorph and Porcelain Legionnaire make decklists all the time without a concern for color, while others, such a Moltensteel Dragon are almost exclusively seen in decks built around the appropriate color.
Though I know that this topic has been discussed before, I think that this is an interesting [MCD] so I'm dredging it up again for discussion in this format.
So, what are you opinions on the matter?
If you see some phyrexians played more often in off-colour deck, classify it as colourless. Otherwise, put it in the appropriate colour.
But it's been discussed to death, and it ultimately boils down to preference. Are you more comfortable including a colorless card that's intrinsically better when used by a specific color, or more comfortable having a card in one of the colored sections that can be stolen by an off-color deck? In the end, it doesn't really matter. Just put them where you want to.
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Cards which should be listed under their respective colour should be Moltensteel Dragon and Birthing Pod.
The real tricky card to classify in my mind is Dismember. I have it listed as a colourless card, yet I would always prefer to be able to play it for some amount of black mana. I really think this is up to your playgroup's tendencies.
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This is how I see it, too. It saves you a lot of time and head scratching over each individual Phyrexian mana card if you just put them in their respective color and be done with it.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
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From personal experience I've only seen Dismember be played in a non-black deck once, and it gets drafted and maindecked regularly.
1) They are playable in any color, and Usman's poll showed the majority get played a fair amount in off-color decks.
2) Even if they are strictly better in their appropriate colors, giving those colors access to slightly more cards isn't that big of a deal.
3) I don't see it as that different from other colorless cards that are better in certain colors. For example, Ankh of Mishra is way better in red than any other color because of burn, LD, and aggressive creatures.
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I agree with this exactly. I play Metamorph, Legionnaire, and Spellskite in colorless, I play Birthing Pod and Dismember in their colors, and when I ran Dragon, he was in red.
It's all about where they see the most play. I think Metamorph sees play in EVERYTHING, I think I've seen Legionnaire in more red/black decks than any other colors, and Spellskite hasn't been in long enough to really determine where he belongs, but I'm leaning towards colorless. The others really don't get played outside of their colors except in corner cases.
I could see the argument for making Dismember colorless, but I'd be doing that more because I want additional slots in black, not because Dismember sees a lot of play in nonblack decks, so that seems wrong.
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I put all of them in colorless. You can view them as each one in respective color or a separate cycle. Doesn't really matter.
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Honestly, I don't have a problem with putting hybrid cards into one of their colors. The day that canker abomination gets played off of forests in my C/ube, I'll consider moving it into the golgari section. But as long as green doesn't play the card... it serves no purpose cluttering my gb section
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We use "as played," so Dismember and Porcelain Legionnaire are colorless while Moltensteel Dragon is red.
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This was written when I still cared about balancing the gold section as well. I no longer do. I still use the 'as played' classification, because I still care for balance between the mono color sections and because I want to play Spined Thopter without having to cut a blue card.
tl;dr: it is not really important how you classify your cards, but it is interesting to discuss it none the less
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This, exactly.
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The difference is that people categorize all Kird Ape effects either as multicolor or as monocolor. Splitting those cards over the two methods in a single cube would be just as weird as doing so with the Phyrexian mana cards. Trying to find the "right spot" for each individual card is much ado about nothing but the false assurance that the cube is now perfectly balanced colorwise. However, the colors will never be perfectly balanced (unless you go the extra mile of counting colored mana symbols, splitting true multicolor from hybrid etc.) and putting Porcelain Legionnaire into white even if he gets played in 60% nonwhite decks will not cause any noticable balance troubles during draft.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I haven't had him in a pool yet, I've placed it in colorless now because I really want it to be a colorless card. I just have so much less room in blue than any other color, it's so deep. If I find it seeing a lot of play in blue, I'll have to reevaluate it as a card in cube.
I don't know that I agree with this. For one, a lot of people play Wild Nacatl as a green creature, since it's a 2/2 for 1 in multiple color combinations, and is occasionally a 3/3. Beyond that, though, I do think that categorizing Porcelain Legionnaire as a white card decreases the number of white cards in the draft. If the R/B aggro player takes Porcelain Legionnaire, that's one less card the white drafter has available to them. If you think in the context of 50 or 60 white cards, that's not a lot, but if you think in the terms of 16-17 white 1-2 drops creatures (as in my cube), it definitely makes a dent.
I certainly wouldn't want to play 1 less blue card in my list in order to give every color access to Phyrexian Metamorph.
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Of course it is your choice to do it anyway and I have already spent too much time on this matter. I just leave now with my head shaking and let you* do whatever you want.
* "You" being everyone trying hard to find the "best" place for their Phyrexian mana cards and nobody in particular.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG