So I'm trying to decide if i should keep Sorin in my cube or put in Liliana of the Dark Realms. I'm just not certain that for 6 mana (including triple black) that Sorin is really that great of a card. His first ability is good - but I don't think it is 6 mana good. The -3 is ok - but I would like to think that by the 6th turn you have done at least some damage so this is not as impressive as it would be in say EDH. And if you want his Ultimate I think Mindslaver is just a better way to do that all around.
It looks like there are 29 cubes in the forum running him still. Does anybody have any reasons to justify him there (in particular over the new Lilina or against a competing 6 drop creature) but in general as well
His first ability is absolutely insane. However, in regular cube his second ability is pretty much non-existant, and it is a 6-drop which puts him in finisher territory. Just compare the impact Markov has against that of the average 6-drop, and you'll see that he will only be good in environments in which you can play a 6-drop and expect to have 4+ more turns to win the game. For regular small to mid sized cubes, he is just too slow and one-dimensional these days.
I like Sorin a lot. Sometimes you have a X/B control deck that can handle the game until T6 or whatever, and then dropping Sorin is really good, since he does everything you want him to at that point in the game. Sure he's not as flashy or quick to win the game as other win cons, but if you need to get back in the life race, he hits dudes and gains life while upping his loyalty. If you play him post-wrath and haven't touched their life total yet, well, take 10. His ultimate is just gravy.
I like Sorin, but I don't think he holds up well compared to what else 6-mana can get you in most cubes. I'd cut him for new Liliana if I were you. I cut Sorin a few updates ago and don't miss him.
I do have one fun Sorin story. I was watching two of my drafters play. The board state was pretty stagnant but one player had Sorin built up so it would go ultimate next turn. The other player draws a card--Phyrexian Processor. He plays another dude and kills one of the Sorin-player's dudes, but he doesn't play Processor. So, the Sorin player untaps, draws, ultimates Sorin. Next turn, he sees the Processor in the other guy's hand and plays it, having the player pay all of his life to the Processor. The Processor guy was pretty mad at himself for missing that play and walking right into it.
Hitting BBB by the time you draw 6 lands is just as likely as getting to BB by turn 4 otd (85%).
I really don't understand those who complain that Sorin is too hard to cast with his triple black mana. As a six mana card, he is easier to cast on curve than Vampire Nighthawk for god's sake!
People tend to like PWs, life gain and flavorful Mystics. Sorin fits into all 3 categories and is rather inexpensive for a planeswalker, which might explain the popularity.
The life gain makes him especially interesting to me. There are many life loss effects in black, but not that many good life gain effects. So, you have to either win before all the life loss stacks up (the aggro way) or you have to find a way to stabilize your life total. Sorin is perfect for that role.
While I like him more than the 4+5 mana Lilianas, I rather play a good 6 drop creature in that slot that this.
I agree with the first part. I like him more than yet another black fatty though, because he plays significantly different from a creature. Not being a creature makes him both more interesting and more resilient.
The funny Sorin story that I have comes from people forgetting about his second ability (similar to how they forget Venser, the Sojourner's second ability). During one game, the UB control player cast Sorin and started pinging his opponent for 2 each turn. His own life total was on a reasonable level and he had Keiga, the Tide Star out. His opponent didn't had any creatures out and was at over 20 life, thanks to some life gain earlier. After two turns, the opponent casually mentioned that he would have been dead now, if Sorin's second ability would have been used first, then cast the Wrath he just drew.
Hitting BBB by the time you draw 6 lands is just as likely as getting to BB by turn 4 otd (85%).
Not saying that he's uncastable at BBB (as you point out, he isn't). Just that I find him not quite as game-winningly good as you could otherwise get at his casting cost.
My playgroup has implemented a design rule for my cube that anything with a triple-mana casting cost should go close to winning you the game. Does Sorin do that? Arguable.
My cube is currently running Yawgmoth's Bargain in the 6cc black slot, and I can't see Sorin climbing over it soon.
Sorin is way better than Yawgmoth's Bargain in any cube where Aggro is remotely viable. Against aggro or even aggressive midrange decks, spending your 6th turn spending life to draw cards is suicide.
Sorin is way better than Yawgmoth's Bargain in any cube where Aggro is remotely viable. Against aggro or even aggressive midrange decks, spending your 6th turn spending life to draw cards is suicide.
This. Sorin is so good against aggressive creatures. Killing them one by one while gaining the life back that they took away from you in the earlier turns. And he gains loyality so fast that they can't kill him by attacking.
CadaverousBl00m, you are playing a multiplayer cube which I presume has a smaller focus on aggro decks (since those suck in free-for-all). In your cube, Bargain might be better than Sorin. In most other cubes, it is not.
CadaverousBl00m, you are playing a multiplayer cube which I presume has a smaller focus on aggro decks (since those suck in free-for-all). In your cube, Bargain might be better than Sorin. In most other cubes, it is not.
Dead right there in all aspects (and I agree that Sorin is a lot better in the other scenarios you mention). I'm beginning to ponder whether I need to start thinking about a Multiplayer Cube Thread at the top of this forum (in the same vein as the Pauper one) to cover situations like this, TBH.
His first ability is absolutely insane. However, in regular cube his second ability is pretty much non-existant, and it is a 6-drop which puts him in finisher territory. Just compare the impact Markov has against that of the average 6-drop, and you'll see that he will only be good in environments in which you can play a 6-drop and expect to have 4+ more turns to win the game. For regular small to mid sized cubes, he is just too slow and one-dimensional these days.
Two and a half years ago, but applies to this day IMO.
I really liked him when he was new and we had only twenty or so planeswalkers to chose from. With time, I realized that he just isn't all that impressive though and cut him last year.
So I'm trying to decide if i should keep Sorin in my cube or put in Liliana of the Dark Realms. I'm just not certain that for 6 mana (including triple black) that Sorin is really that great of a card. His first ability is good - but I don't think it is 6 mana good. The -3 is ok - but I would like to think that by the 6th turn you have done at least some damage so this is not as impressive as it would be in say EDH. And if you want his Ultimate I think Mindslaver is just a better way to do that all around.
It looks like there are 29 cubes in the forum running him still. Does anybody have any reasons to justify him there (in particular over the new Lilina or against a competing 6 drop creature) but in general as well
We play both at 720, and Lil' 3.0 has been better than we expected. Sorin is usually a little worse than people expect.
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I do have one fun Sorin story. I was watching two of my drafters play. The board state was pretty stagnant but one player had Sorin built up so it would go ultimate next turn. The other player draws a card--Phyrexian Processor. He plays another dude and kills one of the Sorin-player's dudes, but he doesn't play Processor. So, the Sorin player untaps, draws, ultimates Sorin. Next turn, he sees the Processor in the other guy's hand and plays it, having the player pay all of his life to the Processor. The Processor guy was pretty mad at himself for missing that play and walking right into it.
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I really don't understand those who complain that Sorin is too hard to cast with his triple black mana. As a six mana card, he is easier to cast on curve than Vampire Nighthawk for god's sake!
The life gain makes him especially interesting to me. There are many life loss effects in black, but not that many good life gain effects. So, you have to either win before all the life loss stacks up (the aggro way) or you have to find a way to stabilize your life total. Sorin is perfect for that role.
I agree with the first part. I like him more than yet another black fatty though, because he plays significantly different from a creature. Not being a creature makes him both more interesting and more resilient.
The funny Sorin story that I have comes from people forgetting about his second ability (similar to how they forget Venser, the Sojourner's second ability). During one game, the UB control player cast Sorin and started pinging his opponent for 2 each turn. His own life total was on a reasonable level and he had Keiga, the Tide Star out. His opponent didn't had any creatures out and was at over 20 life, thanks to some life gain earlier. After two turns, the opponent casually mentioned that he would have been dead now, if Sorin's second ability would have been used first, then cast the Wrath he just drew.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Not saying that he's uncastable at BBB (as you point out, he isn't). Just that I find him not quite as game-winningly good as you could otherwise get at his casting cost.
My playgroup has implemented a design rule for my cube that anything with a triple-mana casting cost should go close to winning you the game. Does Sorin do that? Arguable.
My cube is currently running Yawgmoth's Bargain in the 6cc black slot, and I can't see Sorin climbing over it soon.
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This. Sorin is so good against aggressive creatures. Killing them one by one while gaining the life back that they took away from you in the earlier turns. And he gains loyality so fast that they can't kill him by attacking.
CadaverousBl00m, you are playing a multiplayer cube which I presume has a smaller focus on aggro decks (since those suck in free-for-all). In your cube, Bargain might be better than Sorin. In most other cubes, it is not.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Dead right there in all aspects (and I agree that Sorin is a lot better in the other scenarios you mention). I'm beginning to ponder whether I need to start thinking about a Multiplayer Cube Thread at the top of this forum (in the same vein as the Pauper one) to cover situations like this, TBH.
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Two and a half years ago, but applies to this day IMO.
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Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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