I have seen Shrine of Burning Rage in quite a few games of the MTGO cube and it impressed me quite a bit. How much damage should a burn spell do that costs 2 + 3 and that can deal that damage to a creature or a player? 5 damage? Well that would be three upkeeps and two red spells, which should be quite easy to achieve in a RX deck. I would cast a 2 mana creature instead of Shrine early in most cases, but at one point, you will have 2 mana open and nothing else to do. And unless you are in a tight racing situation where you just don't have enough time, this should give you a lot of value if you wait for a few turns.
+ Can deal a ludicrous amount of damage if given a few turns.
+ Can be cast and used even if you are color screwed.
+ Can dodge artifact removal, if you keep 3 open.
+ You only lose a 2 mana investment when it gets destroyed and you can't activate it in response.
+ Ignores protection from red.
- Needs a few turns to ramp counters up. (This point makes or breaks the card.)
- Is a mediocre topdeck.
- Can be destroyed before you get to use it.
- You need to keep 3 open all the time to guarantee value from the card.
I don't like it. It's easy to remove and they get nothing out of it if you do. It's also slow, and doesn't apply any pressure while it's building counters, which is the opposite of what I want my red decks to be doing with their 2-drops.
It's a weird card because you don't want to play it on curve and you definitely don't want to play it as the last card in your hand. I just find it clunky. I would probably expect at least 7 damage from it to earn its keep. In a more control-focused red section, I would start to consider it at larger sizes. It's probably great in counterburn.
No, it's not. It's an option. The option to prevent what can happen to a lot of artifacts: To be destroyed without ever having an effect. You don't have to keep the mana open at all times. If you don't, the con "Can be destroyed before you get to use it. " may apply. But this one is true for most artifacts anyway. And while keeping 3 open during the early game would set you back too much, it is a lot easier later, when you have cast most spells from your hand and when you have enough lands in play. At this point, it becomes an option to somewhat dodge artifact removal. Which is defenitely a pro.
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I would probably expect at least 7 damage from it to earn its keep.
Why so much? 5 damage seems fine for five mana that can be split over two installments.
Why so much? 5 damage seems fine for five mana that can be split over two installments.
Well, I also figured in that you have to wait a while to 'cash in', and that your opponent can also blow it up in advance of getting any benefit. Maybe I'm doing it a disservice, but that's how I came up with 7.
No, it's not. It's an option. The option to prevent what can happen to a lot of artifacts: To be destroyed without ever having an effect.
but this is a red card that deals damage and does nothing else. so we should compare it to cards red decks run to deal damage. looking at it that way, it's definitely a drawback.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
We run it at 540 and would run at 450 easily too. It's excellent in mono red and counterburn. It does way more damage than 5 ...
Occasionally they destroy it, but you can usually get a good read from them if they can deal with it or not. If not, just play normally and let shrine easily finish them off (seen it do 10+ dmg often), or play around removal if you need shrine's dmg. It's got variance, and some don't like that, but it's certainly powerful.
(P.S. Play it turn 2. The lost attack phase by 2drop is made up for.)
I thought the card was pretty bad until I actually played with it. I don't know what it is about the card that makes it look so awful on paper but great when you give it a shot.
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My Black & Silver Cube [360/Peasant/Draft It! EDH Decks: - Reya Dawnbringer // - Mistform Ultimus // - Balthor the Defiled // - Urabrask the Hidden // - Mirri, Cat Warrior
Excellent card for me so far supporting red decks of different varieties (mono-red, counterburn, r/g aggro, Wildfire, etc.). Is a bomb in mono-red decks as just a huge inevitable clock, and also is wonderful in counterburn and Wildfire (when resources are scarce, it just keeeeeps ticking). It provides a sense of doom much the way Sulfuric Vortex does, and while they are obviously not the same thing it can function in much the same way. If your opponent doesn't draw/have artifact removal, they are likely going to die to it. Definitely plays better than it looks on paper.
Kenny Mayer is the one who got me interested in this card, and I'm thankful he did.
I was Gbw tonight and had very little artifact removal. Shrine of Burning Rage was ready to 11 me for the win when I scooped. I'm running this card as part of a "miscellaneous" cycle (U & W Vivids, Volrath Stronghold & Treetop Village). This fits the red card slot in that cycle really nicely. If you're super aggressive then drop it when you're out of plays instead of on turn 2. This card can single-handedly win the game by itself. If you keep enough mana up then you can always respond if they go to kill it.
This is a card that I definitely would recommend at 450.
If you keep enough mana up then you can always respond if they go to kill it.
But that doesn't happen, right? I cannot imagine being able to keep open 3 every turn and still win the game. Likewise, it's hard to imagine an artifact that needs to be around for turn upon turn to start becoming threatening to be any good.
I guess I just don't get it. Maybe this is more something for the Ancestral Vision crowd? I tend to not want to wait around to get return on investment.
I think everybody who's skeptical about Shrine should give it a shot. You may still not like it but I will chime in with others and say that it plays A LOT better than it seems. The card offers a sense of inevitably that few red cards can.
I'll give it a shot in my eventual 450 list. I know it plays differently than it looks because I played against it in Standard. Its one of those cards where you start out at the "Oh I'll be able to deal with it before they detonate" but as the game goes on you end up using your resources on more immediate threats and by the time you realize it, shrine's hitting you for 10+ because you used your artifact removal on a powerful piece of equipment or something.
I am definitely giving this a shot next time we cube. I have been fairly critical of the card, but it could clearly be a card that plays out differently in person.
This card plays way better than it looks. Being an artifact is certainly a drawback though if your deck 1) doesn't have any other artifacts and 2) your cube metagame has a lot of maindeck artifact kill spells
But that doesn't happen, right? I cannot imagine being able to keep open 3 every turn and still win the game. Likewise, it's hard to imagine an artifact that needs to be around for turn upon turn to start becoming threatening to be any good.
Typically how Shrine is played is that a person will cast it (between turn 2-turn 5). The caster will usually tap out one or two times to cast other things. This is the window for the opponent to destroy it. If your opponent doesn't destroy it during those one or two turns then they just lose the game. Typically this goes in a moderate to heavy red deck which is not as unhappy as most decks to have an opponent spend a turn destroying an artifact. This also eats potential artifact removal for other sweet artifacts your red/X deck may be running (I'm mainly thinking of the Lodestone Golem curve topper).
I guess I just don't get it. Maybe this is more something for the Ancestral Vision crowd? I tend to not want to wait around to get return on investment.
I run Ancestral Vision even though I'm not a huge fan of it. I do think it's good enough for my 500. But I do think that Shrine is better than AV. Ancestral Vision has suspend 4 to draw 3 cards. If Shrine becomes unsuspended it wins the game.
I understand your hesitation but your red section looks a lot like mine. Once you get past a certain turn it's pretty much guaranteed that you'll have at least 3 mana open. Facing down Shrine without immediate artifact destruction means you'll lose the game. Even if you destroy it, you'll still take 3-7 to the face which is devastating against the red decks.
It's been in my Cube a short time & it's already won two games by itself...one by doing 11 & one by doing 20.
I can't really see how the artifact destruction part is THAT big of a downside at all.
You've only invested two mana and a card, so it's rarely a significant resource loss/trade if it gets blown up.
As a red/burn deck you aren't going to be running many artifacts at all, so attacking with a different angle than normal (an artifact instead of creatures) makes it harder for you to be hated against.
The more artifact hate they include, the worse they do against your creatures and vice versa.
Being red yourself, you have a greater shot at drafting the keldon vandals etc yourself for your own deck.
How many creatures are there in cube that really stop an agro game plan, not in red AND serves as artifact hate?
Not many at all.
Do you care if they are running disenchant against your red agro deck? Uh, you'd probably prefer it.
Really seems to be one of those "bad on paper, good in practice" cards. I guess most people that praise this card have played in cube, while most that talk down on it haven't?
Really seems to be one of those "bad on paper, good in practice" cards. I guess most people that praise this card have played in cube, while most that talk down on it haven't?
I think so, yeah. I was on the "this requires too much mana and it's a bad topdeck, it sucks" train before trying it out on Kenny's recommendation (as I've almost always agreed with his recommendations and words about cube, I can only think of once when we've disagreed) and have become very happy with it since its inclusion.
It's a very good supplement to red in cube (and I'd play it in any deck that has red as a major color, like RG beats, not just in mono red.) Sitting on the 3 mana in case you fear artifact destruction is almost always incorrect (unless the Shrine itself is your path of victory, say if the opponent is at 10 and you have a Shrine at 5 with a Lightning Bolt in hand) and as others have said, it acts as a form of inevitability; as Anthony said, it's always ticking, even if your red spells get countered or if the game state is stagnant. It has usually been a very good investment on overall mana - having it go off with something like 7-10 damage isn't uncommon and I've seen many a red-based aggro (again to clarify, not mono-red) game decided by EOT burn spell, Shrine your face FTW. It can hit creatures if need be to kill protection dudes or just snipe an annoying creature that's going to kill you, but like with Brimstone Volley, most of the time it's going to the dome. Still, it's a nice and relevant feature to consider, especially when the needs of the board dictate it.
Sometimes the opponent does have the artifact destruction spell for it when you can't sacrifice it in response, but I haven't really found that to be the case that often and I think the idea of the sunk cost fallacy of "wasting turns/spells" comes into factor with the fear of having it destroyed.
While it's true that it's a bad topdeck, there are plenty of cards in cube that are bad topdecks (counterspells when you're dead on board, Smokestack when you can't really use it, equipment when you have no creatures) and I think people who haven't played the card tend to fear that potential situation too much, as that doesn't tend to represent how it plays out the majority of the time.
Like other cards that MTGS has dogged in the past but have since caught onto (Elesh Norn, Consecrated Sphinx, Prime Time) I'm hoping that it catches on more here.
I have seen Shrine of Burning Rage in quite a few games of the MTGO cube and it impressed me quite a bit. How much damage should a burn spell do that costs 2 + 3 and that can deal that damage to a creature or a player? 5 damage? Well that would be three upkeeps and two red spells, which should be quite easy to achieve in a RX deck. I would cast a 2 mana creature instead of Shrine early in most cases, but at one point, you will have 2 mana open and nothing else to do. And unless you are in a tight racing situation where you just don't have enough time, this should give you a lot of value if you wait for a few turns.
+ Can deal a ludicrous amount of damage if given a few turns.
+ Can be cast and used even if you are color screwed.
+ Can dodge artifact removal, if you keep 3 open.
+ You only lose a 2 mana investment when it gets destroyed and you can't activate it in response.
+ Ignores protection from red.
- Needs a few turns to ramp counters up. (This point makes or breaks the card.)
- Is a mediocre topdeck.
- Can be destroyed before you get to use it.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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This is a con, not a pro.
- You need to keep 3 open all the time to guarantee value from the card.
I don't like it. It's easy to remove and they get nothing out of it if you do. It's also slow, and doesn't apply any pressure while it's building counters, which is the opposite of what I want my red decks to be doing with their 2-drops.
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No, it's not. It's an option. The option to prevent what can happen to a lot of artifacts: To be destroyed without ever having an effect. You don't have to keep the mana open at all times. If you don't, the con "Can be destroyed before you get to use it. " may apply. But this one is true for most artifacts anyway. And while keeping 3 open during the early game would set you back too much, it is a lot easier later, when you have cast most spells from your hand and when you have enough lands in play. At this point, it becomes an option to somewhat dodge artifact removal. Which is defenitely a pro.
Why so much? 5 damage seems fine for five mana that can be split over two installments.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Well, I also figured in that you have to wait a while to 'cash in', and that your opponent can also blow it up in advance of getting any benefit. Maybe I'm doing it a disservice, but that's how I came up with 7.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
It might be better in an unpowered cube, where the artifact removal is less abundant.
Really? I can only think of a few, and none of them require to stay on the board for long periods of time before they become of any value.
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This could very well be the case.
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but this is a red card that deals damage and does nothing else. so we should compare it to cards red decks run to deal damage. looking at it that way, it's definitely a drawback.
Occasionally they destroy it, but you can usually get a good read from them if they can deal with it or not. If not, just play normally and let shrine easily finish them off (seen it do 10+ dmg often), or play around removal if you need shrine's dmg. It's got variance, and some don't like that, but it's certainly powerful.
(P.S. Play it turn 2. The lost attack phase by 2drop is made up for.)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385729
EDH Decks:
- Reya Dawnbringer // - Mistform Ultimus // - Balthor the Defiled // - Urabrask the Hidden // - Mirri, Cat Warrior
Kenny Mayer is the one who got me interested in this card, and I'm thankful he did.
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This is a card that I definitely would recommend at 450.
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I guess I just don't get it. Maybe this is more something for the Ancestral Vision crowd? I tend to not want to wait around to get return on investment.
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Typically how Shrine is played is that a person will cast it (between turn 2-turn 5). The caster will usually tap out one or two times to cast other things. This is the window for the opponent to destroy it. If your opponent doesn't destroy it during those one or two turns then they just lose the game. Typically this goes in a moderate to heavy red deck which is not as unhappy as most decks to have an opponent spend a turn destroying an artifact. This also eats potential artifact removal for other sweet artifacts your red/X deck may be running (I'm mainly thinking of the Lodestone Golem curve topper).
I run Ancestral Vision even though I'm not a huge fan of it. I do think it's good enough for my 500. But I do think that Shrine is better than AV. Ancestral Vision has suspend 4 to draw 3 cards. If Shrine becomes unsuspended it wins the game.
I understand your hesitation but your red section looks a lot like mine. Once you get past a certain turn it's pretty much guaranteed that you'll have at least 3 mana open. Facing down Shrine without immediate artifact destruction means you'll lose the game. Even if you destroy it, you'll still take 3-7 to the face which is devastating against the red decks.
It's been in my Cube a short time & it's already won two games by itself...one by doing 11 & one by doing 20.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
You've only invested two mana and a card, so it's rarely a significant resource loss/trade if it gets blown up.
As a red/burn deck you aren't going to be running many artifacts at all, so attacking with a different angle than normal (an artifact instead of creatures) makes it harder for you to be hated against.
The more artifact hate they include, the worse they do against your creatures and vice versa.
Being red yourself, you have a greater shot at drafting the keldon vandals etc yourself for your own deck.
How many creatures are there in cube that really stop an agro game plan, not in red AND serves as artifact hate?
Not many at all.
Do you care if they are running disenchant against your red agro deck? Uh, you'd probably prefer it.
This card is the real deal.
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You can't really compare these effects. X-spells are mana intensive but instant damage, Shrine is cheap but slow damage.
Just remembered another pro btw: Shrine ignores protection from red.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I think so, yeah. I was on the "this requires too much mana and it's a bad topdeck, it sucks" train before trying it out on Kenny's recommendation (as I've almost always agreed with his recommendations and words about cube, I can only think of once when we've disagreed) and have become very happy with it since its inclusion.
It's a very good supplement to red in cube (and I'd play it in any deck that has red as a major color, like RG beats, not just in mono red.) Sitting on the 3 mana in case you fear artifact destruction is almost always incorrect (unless the Shrine itself is your path of victory, say if the opponent is at 10 and you have a Shrine at 5 with a Lightning Bolt in hand) and as others have said, it acts as a form of inevitability; as Anthony said, it's always ticking, even if your red spells get countered or if the game state is stagnant. It has usually been a very good investment on overall mana - having it go off with something like 7-10 damage isn't uncommon and I've seen many a red-based aggro (again to clarify, not mono-red) game decided by EOT burn spell, Shrine your face FTW. It can hit creatures if need be to kill protection dudes or just snipe an annoying creature that's going to kill you, but like with Brimstone Volley, most of the time it's going to the dome. Still, it's a nice and relevant feature to consider, especially when the needs of the board dictate it.
Sometimes the opponent does have the artifact destruction spell for it when you can't sacrifice it in response, but I haven't really found that to be the case that often and I think the idea of the sunk cost fallacy of "wasting turns/spells" comes into factor with the fear of having it destroyed.
While it's true that it's a bad topdeck, there are plenty of cards in cube that are bad topdecks (counterspells when you're dead on board, Smokestack when you can't really use it, equipment when you have no creatures) and I think people who haven't played the card tend to fear that potential situation too much, as that doesn't tend to represent how it plays out the majority of the time.
Like other cards that MTGS has dogged in the past but have since caught onto (Elesh Norn, Consecrated Sphinx, Prime Time) I'm hoping that it catches on more here.
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It seems as much of a red card as Crystal Shard is a blue card. Maybe I need to move the shard out of blue.