Restoration Angel and Worldgorger Dragon

[kiranaga]

hi all

i Tooth&Nail for Worldgorger Dragon & Restoration Angel, can i get infinite mana?

worldgorger dragon - http://magiccards.info/ju/en/103.html
restoration angel - http://magiccards.info/avr/en/32.html
tooth & nail - http://magiccards.info/mi/en/134.html

my guess as below:-
(lemmi know if got wrong somewhere)

1) after T&N resolved, both WD & RA are in the battlefield
2) putting RA's ability (targeting WD) on the stack 1st, so that WD's ability will go off 1st.
3) WD's ability exiles everything on the board, left him alone in play
4) then RA's ability resolves, "blinking" the WD
5) during the 1st part of the BLINK, WD leaves play, all permanents ETB. tap lands for mana. RA enter the battlefield and TRY TO PUT ability on stack (this part i have doubts). still during the BLINK process, WD returns to the battlefield, and its ability to be put on stack too
6) is it that only now, i have priority to choose RA's targeted ability, once again targeting WD.
7) the stack now is again, WD ETB ability on top, while RA's on bottom (targeting WD)
8) hence, rinse and repeat until i get 1million mana, then i end the cycle by not choosing a target for RA's ability

is this workable?

[Kahedron]

You are correct upto step 5. Worldgorger dragon has 2 triggered abilities that fire on it ETB and LTB respectively. These can't go on the stack during the resolution of another spell or ability but wait until a player would next get priority. At which point both the ETB and LTB of the dragon are waiting to go on the stack.

To do what you wish you will have to put the ETB of the dragon on the stack first before LTB so the angel comes back before the dragon attempts to remove the world again.

[Segoth]

Worldgorger Dragon
Restoration Angel
Tooth and Nail

No that isn't how it works. You have it correct up through #4. When the worldgorger dragon is exiled it's third ability triggers (the ltb ability), but doesn't get put on the stack until the player receive priority. Before the player receives priority the worldgorger dragon returns triggered it's second ability (the etb ability), now that the angel's ability has resolved you have two triggers that need to be put on the stack, you choose the order they are put on the stack. If you choose to put the ETB ability on the stack first, then the LTB ability will resolve first and you'd return all your permanents to the battlefield, this will cause the restoration angel to trigger, and as you stated you can indeed choose the dragon. You can then choose to tap your land, before the angel's ability resolves, and blinks the dragons giving you two more instances of etb and ltb abilities. Also note you'll still have an ETB ability on the stack on the bottom. The LTB refers to the ETB that hasn't resolved yet so that will not return anything, the other ETB will resolve exiling everything, followed by the last ETB.

Now if you choose to stack it the other way, putting the ltb on the stack first, the etb trigger would resolve first and exile any other permanents (which should be none). Then the ltb ability resolves and returns all the permanents from the first time they were exiled only (which should be the only time any permanents were exiled, but it's still and important distinction). The angel would trigger and you could target the dragon if you want, again the dragon's ltb and etb abilities will trigger. regardless on how you stack them though, the ltb ability shouldn't return anything since the etb that it's linked to didn't exile anything, when the etb ability resolves everything is exiled.

Either way it won't work.

[Gerrard's Mom]

Originally Posted by Segoth

Worldgorger Dragon
Restoration Angel
Tooth and Nail

No that isn't how it works. You have it correct up through #4. When the worldgorger dragon is exiled it's third ability triggers (the ltb ability), but doesn't get put on the stack until the player receive priority. Before the player receives priority the worldgorger dragon returns triggered it's second ability (the etb ability), now that the angel's ability has resolved you have two triggers that need to be put on the stack, you choose the order they are put on the stack. If you choose to put the ETB ability on the stack first, then the LTB ability will resolve first and you'd return all your permanents to the battlefield, this will cause the restoration angel to trigger, and as you stated you can indeed choose the dragon. You can then choose to tap your land, before the angel's ability resolves, and blinks the dragons giving you two more instances of etb and ltb abilities. Also note you'll still have an ETB ability on the stack on the bottom. The LTB refers to the ETB that hasn't resolved yet so that will not return anything, the other ETB will resolve exiling everything, followed by the last ETB.

Now if you choose to stack it the other way, putting the ltb on the stack first, the etb trigger would resolve first and exile any other permanents (which should be none). Then the ltb ability resolves and returns all the permanents from the first time they were exiled only (which should be the only time any permanents were exiled, but it's still and important distinction). The angel would trigger and you could target the dragon if you want, again the dragon's ltb and etb abilities will trigger. regardless on how you stack them though, the ltb ability shouldn't return anything since the etb that it's linked to didn't exile anything, when the etb ability resolves everything is exiled.

Either way it won't work.

By won't work, you mean that in the first case above, he ends up with everything but the Dragon exiled, right? He can still make as much mana as he wants in the meantime. If his only goal is to make "infinite" mana (say, to cast a Fireball on everyone else from his hand), this should work fine, right?

[subx]

Originally Posted by Gerrard's Mom

By won't work, you mean that in the first case above, he ends up with everything but the Dragon exiled, right? He can still make as much mana as he wants in the meantime. If his only goal is to make "infinite" mana (say, to cast a Fireball on everyone else from his hand), this should work fine, right?

No -

Stack fun:

Tooth and Nail resolves, you get Worldgorger and Angel:

Stack 1
-----------
Worldgorger ETB
Resto Angel ETB

Angel gets exiled first, then Angel effect happens blinking dragon. You get to stack these however you want. If you do it Leave the Battlefield trigger on top, you get this:

Stack 2
---------
Worldgorger LTB
Worldgorger ETB

LTB resolves, you get angel back, that trigger goes on top of the ETB trigger.

Stack 3
--------
Angel ETB
Worldgarger ETB

Angel resolves, and the Leave and Enter of the Worldgorger are put on the stack, but the Leave from this one does nothing, as nothing was exiled from it. When the ETB trigger resolves, all permanents are exiled and you don't get them back until Dragon leaves again.

If you instead reverse the order in Stack 2, you would "exile all other permanents" (of which there should be none), and then all your stuff would return. You can blink the dragon, but this is just going to end up in the same situation of all your permanents exiled.

[arsmith7]

Subx-- wouldn't this work?

Stack 3
--------
Angel ETB
Worldgarger ETB

With stack like this, tap all my lands for mana... resolve Angel ETB, targeting WD. I now have another leave and enter from WD to stack, if I choose to resolve Enter first...

Stack 4
-----------
WD Enter
WD Leave
WD Enter

Resolve WD Enter, exiling everything. Resolve WD Leave, bringing everything back, including Angel

Stack 5
---------
Angel ETB
WD Enter

With Angel on the stack, tap all my lands. Rinse, repeat.

Certainly possible I am missing something.

[subx]

Originally Posted by arsmith7

Subx-- wouldn't this work?

Stack 3
--------
Angel ETB
Worldgarger ETB

With stack like this, tap all my lands for mana... resolve Angel ETB, targeting WD. I now have another leave and enter from WD to stack, if I choose to resolve Enter first...

Stack 4
-----------
WD Enter
WD Leave
WD Enter

Resolve WD Enter, exiling everything. Resolve WD Leave, bringing everything back, including Angel

Stack 5
---------
Angel ETB
WD Enter

With Angel on the stack, tap all my lands. Rinse, repeat.

Certainly possible I am missing something.

They are linked abilities, the Leave on Stack 4 is from the previous object, it won't return anything as nothing was exiled by that object.

[arsmith7]

Originally Posted by subx

They are linked abilities, the Leave on Stack 4 is from the previous object, it won't return anything as nothing was exiled by that object.

Thanks, that makes sense. Infinite mana fun spoiled.

[DrunkWolf]

Originally Posted by subx

They are linked abilities, the Leave on Stack 4 is from the previous object, it won't return anything as nothing was exiled by that object.

The way i read it in his example, it's the leave and ETB trigger from the same instance of the WD, is it not?

[subx]

Originally Posted by DrunkWolf

The way i read it in his example, it's the leave and ETB trigger from the same instance of the WD, is it not?

Let's name them WG-1 and WG-2 for reference. When WG-1 leaves the battlefield, the LTB ability triggers (but isn't put on the stack yet). It comes back in as WG-2 and the ETB ability triggers (but isn't put on the stack yet).

You choose the order, but no matter how you stack them, WG-1 didn't have any exiled cards that will return when it resolves, and has nothing to do with WG-2's ETB ability.

[kiranaga]

so, stuff that got exiled by WG-1 cant be brought back by WG-2.
make sense.
and yes, my motive is to get infinite mana, not caring for all my permanents.
well, i guess this combo doesnt work :S

[dangerlinto]

Originally Posted by kiranaga

so, stuff that got exiled by WG-1 cant be brought back by WG-2.
make sense.
and yes, my motive is to get infinite mana, not caring for all my permanents.
well, i guess this combo doesnt work :S

Try
Worldgorger Dragon + Animate Dead. Play AD on WGD in your graveyard.

Animate Dead will continue to move in and out of your graveyard as it continually comes in and out of the exiled zone (along with all your perms), until you either choose to target another creature (if you can) or achieve an end state (such as having enough mana to Volcanic Geyser)

Note that you need another creature to break the loop, or an instant speed win condition. If you (or your opponent) have neither, the game is a draw, as the game is stuck in a loop.

Hence why WGD was banned from Legacy.