There is no question that Time Vault is a powerful card with anything that untaps it and with some cubes supporting Splinter Twin combo, can this nasty card squeeze its way in too?
Ways to untap Time Vault:
Deceiver Exarch
Pestermite
Zealous Conscripts
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
There are plenty of ways to use and abuse the three key creatures that untap Time Vault multiple times in a single game. I personally think this card isn't a long way from being cubable, remember to keep in mind Time Vault during spoiler season!
We used to play it, it just took away two cards that would have been used in lots of strategies. Generally Time Vault gets taken fairly early and people try to get the Key on the wheel whenever it comes around, but sometimes people will take the Key because they've already passed on Time Vault.
So Time Vault becomes an odd gambit where you take it early and try to build around it, which leaves you with an odd deck via a P1P1 choice.
It's just a very odd card. When it works out, it works out incredibly - almost too good. But it's not worth the risk most of the time, so 90% of drafts it and it's brother get sideboarded and someone wastes a relatively high pick (and two people get wasted cards in their packs).
If Time Vault is a solid card without the combo, then I am okay with it, but it appears that I have to add two narrow cards to my cube to make this worthwhile at all. I am not interested in a Illusions/Donate style cube.
Outside of the combo it's a terrible Magosi, the Waterveil because it takes up a deck slot and doesn't tap for mana. I could maybe see boarding it in in the super slow control mirror but otherwise wouldn't want it in my deck.
But comparing it to donate / Delusions and Magosi (not abusable. no synergies. More expensive. Coloured.) is inaccurate.
Well it is certainly an exaggeration, but the fact is Time Vault is cubeable without key (imo) and Illusions isn't cubeable without Donate. I am not interested in that sort of cube. Time Vault + key is better than Illusion/Donate, but it is still a better version of the same principal. Hence the comparison.
But comparing it to donate / Delusions and Magosi (not abusable. no synergies. More expensive. Coloured.) is inaccurate.
What are we allowed to compare it to? Donate/Illusions seems like a good comparison since both cards are awful without each other but both pieces together should win you the game, similar to Key/Vault. Magosi has a very similar effect in that it forces you to skip a turn to gain an extra turn later.
I run it along with Tezzeret, though not Voltaic Key. Note that there's more than one way to go infinite. With Crystal Shard or Erratic Portal, Pestermite/Exarch/Conscripts also equals infinite turns.
With Smokestack or Tangle wire, you can give your opponent a detrimental extra turn and stockpile a good turn for later.
There's several ways to break it, and I think it's worthy of inclusion.
I wouldn't include Time Vault/combo. Let's assume that Voltaic Key is worth cubing with in your cube. At that point Time Vault would only be more than a blank card if you managed to draft Voltaic Key and/or Tezzeret 1.0. Without one of those two cards you are better off having any other artifact in your Time Vault slot.
Now lets look at the pay off for including a card that is a blank 90% of the time. You will ocasionaly get non games where someone goes turn 1 Voltaic Key, turn 2 Vault. Turn 3 infinite turns. Time Vault never adds interesting game play. It is either a dead card or it is an instant you win the game. I don't see how adding non interactive combos is worth adding in a otherwise dead card to your cube.
You compare the combo to Splinter Twin. Splinter Twin/kiki Jiki on it's own merrits creates some interesting game play. Who wouldn't want to make an eternal witness/siege Gang Commander/Whatever every turn? Pestermte while not the most inspired card can create some good moments. Flash in as a blocker, before combat tap a creature, next turn equip a sword and go to win town. Both the cards do something by themselves. Which is not the case with Time Vault.
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With Smokestack or Tangle wire, you can give your opponent a detrimental extra turn and stockpile a good turn for later.
There's several ways to break it, and I think it's worthy of inclusion.
I don't like the combo (maybe I just have a grudge against it since I feel like it ruined vintage). That being said if it played out like this more often I would be inclined to play it. That is a cool effect. I guess if there comes a point in my cube where there are enough scenarios that it works like this in I would consider running it without key and tezz. That way it could be used to
1) lose a turn against durdle control to gain a turn later.
2) punish with symmetrical upkeep effects.
3) be used as a time walk with a pester mite.
4) assemble a convoluted crystal shard/pester mite/time vault combo.
The actual combo does not appeal to me in the slightest though.
If I ran a tight, powered list, this'd make the cut without question. It's been extremely powerful in my combo cube.
Of course any list including this card would need to include Voltaic Key and Tezzeret, the Seeker. I love the interactions with Braids, Cabal Minion, Smokestack, and Tangle Wire. I think there are enough interactions with Time Vault that including it wouldn't feel awful the same way that have Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Pestermite, or Splinter Twin in your cube for other various interactions isn't bad. Granted, Vault's use is a bit more narrow, but I still contend it'd be a fun cube card.
I ran time vault for a good while with key and no one wanted to go for it. Time vault tabled all the time, so I just cut it.
I don't know how you were supporting it, but I really think you have to look at Time Vault like an archetype and not a card. If you weren't running at least Key, Tezz, Braids, Stack, and Wire, and your list is on the smaller side, I don't see it being supportable.
I ran time vault for about a year after Tezz 1 came out. It was quite good, especially since I run a small cube, which was even smaller at the time (360-400).
However, while my play group loves powering out dudes and smashing face, there is less love for infinite combos. I may try it again, but we got really bored of it, and decided as a whole that is was more fun to play without it. But if your group loves combo, and you run ALOT of stuff to stop combos in general, or the specific cards, then by all means =).
That being said, I think combo in general only works in smaller cubes, and you shouldn't try and force combo pieces in larger cubes. You will just end up with a lot of blanked cards in your draft, and feel really unsatisfied with your deck.
Yesterday the previously mentioned turn 1 key and turn 2 tutor/ timevault happened around 4 or 5 times. Now I am certainly reeveluating if i still want to run key. These games arent the ones we are trying to facilitate.
If I was building a list that emphasized powerful cards and interactions, Time Vault would most certainly make the cut. It just so happens that it's also very fun to build around. I absolutely love it in my combo cube, but it isn't a good card for my current list.
I'm not sure many of my group would appreciate a card that is nigh useless when you don't have the other pieces and is 'insta-win' when you do. It is probably the first card I'd scribble down for a 'combo cube' list though. There are enough cards in the same colours to abuse it quite readily.
I don't know how you were supporting it, but I really think you have to look at Time Vault like an archetype and not a card.
This is so true. You need your deck to function in the absence of any 'build around me' card, so it has to fit into an overall strategy. Wildfire works well with artifact ramp and big creatures, but ramping into big creatures is pretty solid without drawing Wildfire. I can see how Time Vault could fit into a strongly supported artifact archetype in a tight list.
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I have never considered running Time Vault in my cube before.
With the spoil of Dack Fayden is getting me to re-evaluate my whole UR section now and I feel like adding a little bit of combo elements might be a good thing for my cube. His looting ability is already incredibly powerful, but if there are also combo pieces in the deck, oh man!
I'm already running Tezz1 and Ral Zarek, going to add in Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite, Zealous Conscripts and Time Vault, sounds like fun times!
Probably not Voltaic Key or Deceiver Exarch yet because these are rather narrow and I don't want too much combo yet.
After Tezzeret 1.0 and Ral, the best card that gives infinite turns with Time Vault is Kiora's Follower.
It's probably not quite good enough on its own, but it accelerates mana, grants creatures pseudo-vigilance, re-uses tap abilities, and attacks for two.
If you want a card that's less narrow than Voltaic Key, and you have a slot in your Simic section, it's well worth trying out.
I am already running the Kiki/Twin combo and thought about adding Time Vault, Kiora's Follower (quite acceptable as a fifth Simic card) and Voltaic Key (can produce mana in concert with half a dozen artifacts that I run, gives artifact creatures vigilance and allows you to use a few useful artifacts twice a turn). Three creatures of the Kiki/Twin package untap the Vault and make it a very cheap Time Warp, so there is some overlap. However, I came to the conclusion that the Vault combo is just too much an insta-win. Unless you are using the Follower to untap it, it is far harder to disrupt than the Kiki/Twin combo, since that one can always be disrupted by instant creature removal. A two card combo that often consists only of planeswalkers and artifacts is way less interactive.
So, even though I would like to have a few more cubable combo decks around, I decided against running this one. Supporting decks beyond the aggro/midrange/control trifecta is fun. Loosing due to an out-of-nowhere, hard to disrupt two card combo is not.
There is no question that Time Vault is a powerful card with anything that untaps it and with some cubes supporting Splinter Twin combo, can this nasty card squeeze its way in too?
kojiro's latest Joy of Cubing Podcast sparked an interest in Time Vault.
Infinite Turns:
Tezzeret 1.0
Voltaic Key
Kiora's Follower
Ral Zarek
Ways to untap Time Vault:
Deceiver Exarch
Pestermite
Zealous Conscripts
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
There are plenty of ways to use and abuse the three key creatures that untap Time Vault multiple times in a single game. I personally think this card isn't a long way from being cubable, remember to keep in mind Time Vault during spoiler season!
So Time Vault becomes an odd gambit where you take it early and try to build around it, which leaves you with an odd deck via a P1P1 choice.
It's just a very odd card. When it works out, it works out incredibly - almost too good. But it's not worth the risk most of the time, so 90% of drafts it and it's brother get sideboarded and someone wastes a relatively high pick (and two people get wasted cards in their packs).
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Well it is certainly an exaggeration, but the fact is Time Vault is cubeable without key (imo) and Illusions isn't cubeable without Donate. I am not interested in that sort of cube. Time Vault + key is better than Illusion/Donate, but it is still a better version of the same principal. Hence the comparison.
What are we allowed to compare it to? Donate/Illusions seems like a good comparison since both cards are awful without each other but both pieces together should win you the game, similar to Key/Vault. Magosi has a very similar effect in that it forces you to skip a turn to gain an extra turn later.
How about Painter's Servant / Grindstone, is that an acceptable comparison since they're both colorless?
With Smokestack or Tangle wire, you can give your opponent a detrimental extra turn and stockpile a good turn for later.
There's several ways to break it, and I think it's worthy of inclusion.
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Now lets look at the pay off for including a card that is a blank 90% of the time. You will ocasionaly get non games where someone goes turn 1 Voltaic Key, turn 2 Vault. Turn 3 infinite turns. Time Vault never adds interesting game play. It is either a dead card or it is an instant you win the game. I don't see how adding non interactive combos is worth adding in a otherwise dead card to your cube.
You compare the combo to Splinter Twin. Splinter Twin/kiki Jiki on it's own merrits creates some interesting game play. Who wouldn't want to make an eternal witness/siege Gang Commander/Whatever every turn? Pestermte while not the most inspired card can create some good moments. Flash in as a blocker, before combat tap a creature, next turn equip a sword and go to win town. Both the cards do something by themselves. Which is not the case with Time Vault.
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I don't like the combo (maybe I just have a grudge against it since I feel like it ruined vintage). That being said if it played out like this more often I would be inclined to play it. That is a cool effect. I guess if there comes a point in my cube where there are enough scenarios that it works like this in I would consider running it without key and tezz. That way it could be used to
1) lose a turn against durdle control to gain a turn later.
2) punish with symmetrical upkeep effects.
3) be used as a time walk with a pester mite.
4) assemble a convoluted crystal shard/pester mite/time vault combo.
The actual combo does not appeal to me in the slightest though.
With out an untap effect you will lose a turn to take a turn. It doesn't actually net you another turn.
Of course any list including this card would need to include Voltaic Key and Tezzeret, the Seeker. I love the interactions with Braids, Cabal Minion, Smokestack, and Tangle Wire. I think there are enough interactions with Time Vault that including it wouldn't feel awful the same way that have Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Pestermite, or Splinter Twin in your cube for other various interactions isn't bad. Granted, Vault's use is a bit more narrow, but I still contend it'd be a fun cube card.
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However, while my play group loves powering out dudes and smashing face, there is less love for infinite combos. I may try it again, but we got really bored of it, and decided as a whole that is was more fun to play without it. But if your group loves combo, and you run ALOT of stuff to stop combos in general, or the specific cards, then by all means =).
That being said, I think combo in general only works in smaller cubes, and you shouldn't try and force combo pieces in larger cubes. You will just end up with a lot of blanked cards in your draft, and feel really unsatisfied with your deck.
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There is Voltaic Key, Tezzeret and now Ral Zerek. This might make it too strong a combo for some or might finally make it playable for some others.
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This is so true. You need your deck to function in the absence of any 'build around me' card, so it has to fit into an overall strategy. Wildfire works well with artifact ramp and big creatures, but ramping into big creatures is pretty solid without drawing Wildfire. I can see how Time Vault could fit into a strongly supported artifact archetype in a tight list.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
With the spoil of Dack Fayden is getting me to re-evaluate my whole UR section now and I feel like adding a little bit of combo elements might be a good thing for my cube. His looting ability is already incredibly powerful, but if there are also combo pieces in the deck, oh man!
I'm already running Tezz1 and Ral Zarek, going to add in Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite, Zealous Conscripts and Time Vault, sounds like fun times!
Probably not Voltaic Key or Deceiver Exarch yet because these are rather narrow and I don't want too much combo yet.
It's probably not quite good enough on its own, but it accelerates mana, grants creatures pseudo-vigilance, re-uses tap abilities, and attacks for two.
If you want a card that's less narrow than Voltaic Key, and you have a slot in your Simic section, it's well worth trying out.
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So, even though I would like to have a few more cubable combo decks around, I decided against running this one. Supporting decks beyond the aggro/midrange/control trifecta is fun. Loosing due to an out-of-nowhere, hard to disrupt two card combo is not.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG