Planeswalkers! Some people love them, some people don't.
Every set comes with anywhere from 1-3 new Planeswalkers. My group can't get enough of them, but we want them to be powerful and board impacting. Personally I play everyone I can if I get a chance, most of them are very good first picks and typically difficult to remove.
In this thread we will discuss if there is a limit to the number of walkers a cube should run, which walkers we run and which we don't, the answers to walkers that we run, and which ones are just our favorite. Feel free to include your pictures of your pimp or altered walkers!
Below is a list of every walker so far, with links to their SCD!
G
Garruk Relentless / Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
Garruk Wildspeaker
Garruk, Primal Hunter Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Nissa Revane
Multicolor UB Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver RW Ajani Vengeant GR Domri Rade UBRNicol Bolas, Planeswalker BR Sarkhan the Mad GR Sarkhan Vol BW Sorin, Lord of Innistrad UB Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas UW Venser, the Sojourner GBVraska the Unseen GRXenagos, The Reveler
Planeswalkers change the way the game is played. This is OK, but I don't want to have every single game be about planeswalkers. Currently I have a soft cap of about 2 planeswalkers per drafter in mind (in other words, no more than 20 planeswalkers in my 450 cards cube). Right now, I only play 14, so I have some room for new ones.
I think the Top 10 on eidolons list are must plays (counting Garruk 2.0 as 10 and excluding Sorin 2.0 as 11)
After that I'd say its more niche. Venser and both Tezzerets especially but don't forget about Bolas. Jace 3.0 is a staple as well but many Cubes on mtgs seem to intentionally exclude him.
All of the ones above Liliana Vess could be justified based on their abstract power level for most Cubes
Note that Ajani 3.0 actually ranks higher since eidolon's data includes some non-m13 Cubes still
I run only 2 of any given name. This keeps the total # of PW down a bit and forces thorough analysis of why a new planeswalker should be included, especially one with mulitple variations like Jace or Garruk.
Eidolon, can you further explain your reasoning behind your 40 limit? or 70? For your 450 cube, that would be 6-7 PW per color or like you said 1/3 of your noncreature cards. Seems like a lot to me.
I'm running 23 PW. I haven't hit the "hm there are too many PW" point yet, but that might be coming soon. In an 8 man draft, that could potentially be 3 PW per player. At what point do creatures become pointless and good spells start getting crowded out?
Just for some clarification: I did not say 1/3 of the noncreature cards, but 1/3 of the 4+ or 3+ mana cards depending on the cost of the PWs.
It is pretty easy to print planeswalkers that play similar to sorceries (Liliana of the Veil <-> Edict) / enchantments (Ajani Goldmane <-> Glorious Anthem) or even creatures (Koth of the Hammer). So at first it does not seem like a restriction would be necessary, but there is still the "legend rule" thing for planeswalkers, which is kind of annoying when it happens on a regular basis, since it reduces the value of the more expensive PWs. (Just think back on the time where people ended up playing Jace 1 as "Seal of Jace", since it could come down before your opponent had Jace TMS generating value for you and preventing your opponent from playing their much more powerful version of Jace.)
The other reason against having too many of them is that their dominance in multiples, since getting through against more than 1 PW and a blocker can become quite hard for your opponent, since they have to "sacrifice" a lot of damage to get rid of the walkers, because ignoring the value generated by 2+ PWs is rarely an option.
Yup. I think the aggressive oriented planeswalkers like Ajani Goldmane and Sarkhan Vol are fair when present in multiples in one deck. It's basically performing as a spell (albeit a recurring one), and when it functions properly, you're just dead after a turn or two. The offensive multiple PW decks are the control decks that drop Jace into gideon into Tamiyo into Nicol bolas or something stupid like that. I suppose it's everyone's fault for letting that guy get all those PW, and I think that fact alone lets me continue to add them. People really should be punished for thinking "mmmmm, i'll pick up X for now, Jace will table for sure".
I think if i try to keep the planeswalkers to 2 per player, I cap off around 27 total for my cube.
With cards like dreadbore and detention sphere being printed, I'm very happy to see that wizards is not afraid of having 1-1 trades with planeswalkers, and in fact encourages it. I hope this means good things for removal spells in the future, being able to kill a creature and a planeswalker is exactly the kind of versatility needed in cube.
Also, I don't think they're too good to limit or anything, they are a permanent that can be killed in combat. Which is one of the most important phases in cube draft. (nowadays)
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I'm pretty happy with the number of planeswalkers I have now. They're still at a level where if you see one in a pack, it's exciting. I don't want to get to the point where there are consistently 2 or more in every pack. I guess I'd still have to more than double the planeswalkers in my cube before that starts to happen
My biggest issue with the card type is the lack of interactivity with other cards. The only way they can be dealt with is with burn or creature damage; if they added errata to cards like Pernicious Deed, say, or better spot removal, then I'd be much more bullish on their inclusion in my cube. As it is, we have to run subpar cards like Vampire Hexmage just to deal with them.
Thankfully, the printing of Dreadbore suggests they're aware of the problem, so that's nice.
My biggest issue with the card type is the lack of interactivity with other cards. The only way they can be dealt with is with burn or creature damage; if they added errata to cards like Pernicious Deed, say, or better spot removal, then I'd be much more bullish on their inclusion in my cube. As it is, we have to run subpar cards like Vampire Hexmage just to deal with them.
Thankfully, the printing of Dreadbore suggests they're aware of the problem, so that's nice.
And that's actually far more interaction than artifacts and enchantment. Creatures are in every single cube deck I've seen in my life.
Still, I probably won't run more than 4 at most in each colors, though.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Vampire Hexmage is really sweet, not only does she kill every walker but she has cool interactions with many great cube cards (Smokestacks being my favorite). I don't think she is subpar at all.
Huh, you're right. Never thought about that. No wonder Wizards hardly prints good ones anymore.
blue can counter and bounce, but has plenty of trouble with them. red and black are just **** out of luck. since i am a big fan of rakdos aggro i am well acquainted with how untouchable enchantments can be.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
blue can counter and bounce, but has plenty of trouble with them. red and black are just **** out of luck. since i am a big fan of rakdos aggro i am well acquainted with how untouchable enchantments can be.
Sounds better than land. Awesome nonbasic land is just unfair. Enchantment is probably the next least interactive, though.
I run a 470 cube semi powered cube. Right now we have 22 planeswalkers but I think there are enough ways to remove them from play or ways to counter them. As a result I don't believe that a cap is necessary for a long time if ever. My opinion may change as more are planeswalker added.
I think that a lot of PW's power comes from the shortage of cards that interact with them. if you can be ahead onboard and stick one its big trouble for the other player. I think as wizards prints more cards that interact with them like Detention Sphere and Dreadbore the power of the PW's will fall and then only the best ones will make the cut, if we can get a few more sets with some solid utility removal spells that can get rid of the walkers then players will be less likely to tap out for a 5 drop that doesn't do much when their opponet is likely to have a 2 or 3 casting cost option like Detention Sphere, Dreadbore, or Vindicate to remove the walker. I feel that if this keeps up walkers will have to pass the "Dreadbore Test" soon enough
I feel that if this keeps up walkers will have to pass the "Dreadbore Test" soon enough
the majority of them already do. that's the biggest problem with walkers: even if you deal with them quickly and efficiently, you're still usually 2:1ed.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
In which case you lose tempo and under certsin circumstances even cards, which would be when you're forced to alphastrike into their blockers just to get rid of the pee wee.
Not saying you're wrong, because you're absolutely right, just that there's more to removing planeswalkers, as there's more to winning a game of magic than card advantage.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
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Planeswalkers! Some people love them, some people don't.
Every set comes with anywhere from 1-3 new Planeswalkers. My group can't get enough of them, but we want them to be powerful and board impacting. Personally I play everyone I can if I get a chance, most of them are very good first picks and typically difficult to remove.
In this thread we will discuss if there is a limit to the number of walkers a cube should run, which walkers we run and which we don't, the answers to walkers that we run, and which ones are just our favorite. Feel free to include your pictures of your pimp or altered walkers!
Below is a list of every walker so far, with links to their SCD!
Ajani Goldmane
Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Elspeth Tirel
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Gideon Jura
Gideon, Champion of Justice
U
Jace Beleren
Jace, Memory Adept
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Jace, Architect of Thought
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Tezzeret the Seeker
B
Liliana of the Dark Realms
Liliana of the Veil
Liliana Vess
Sorin Markov
R
Chandra Ablaze
Chandra Nalaar
Chandra, the Firebrand
Chandra, Pyromaster
Koth of the Hammer
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded
G
Garruk Relentless / Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
Garruk Wildspeaker
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Nissa Revane
Multicolor
UB Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
RW Ajani Vengeant
GR Domri Rade
UBR Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
BR Sarkhan the Mad
GR Sarkhan Vol
BW Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
UB Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
UW Venser, the Sojourner
GB Vraska the Unseen
GR Xenagos, The Reveler
Colorless
Karn Liberated
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
After that I'd say its more niche. Venser and both Tezzerets especially but don't forget about Bolas. Jace 3.0 is a staple as well but many Cubes on mtgs seem to intentionally exclude him.
All of the ones above Liliana Vess could be justified based on their abstract power level for most Cubes
Note that Ajani 3.0 actually ranks higher since eidolon's data includes some non-m13 Cubes still
Eidolon, can you further explain your reasoning behind your 40 limit? or 70? For your 450 cube, that would be 6-7 PW per color or like you said 1/3 of your noncreature cards. Seems like a lot to me.
I'm running 23 PW. I haven't hit the "hm there are too many PW" point yet, but that might be coming soon. In an 8 man draft, that could potentially be 3 PW per player. At what point do creatures become pointless and good spells start getting crowded out?
360 Uncommons only Cube!
Yup. I think the aggressive oriented planeswalkers like Ajani Goldmane and Sarkhan Vol are fair when present in multiples in one deck. It's basically performing as a spell (albeit a recurring one), and when it functions properly, you're just dead after a turn or two. The offensive multiple PW decks are the control decks that drop Jace into gideon into Tamiyo into Nicol bolas or something stupid like that. I suppose it's everyone's fault for letting that guy get all those PW, and I think that fact alone lets me continue to add them. People really should be punished for thinking "mmmmm, i'll pick up X for now, Jace will table for sure".
I think if i try to keep the planeswalkers to 2 per player, I cap off around 27 total for my cube.
360 Uncommons only Cube!
Also, I don't think they're too good to limit or anything, they are a permanent that can be killed in combat. Which is one of the most important phases in cube draft. (nowadays)
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Thankfully, the printing of Dreadbore suggests they're aware of the problem, so that's nice.
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And that's actually far more interaction than artifacts and enchantment. Creatures are in every single cube deck I've seen in my life.
Still, I probably won't run more than 4 at most in each colors, though.
My cube
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I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
Huh, you're right. Never thought about that. No wonder Wizards hardly prints good ones anymore.
blue can counter and bounce, but has plenty of trouble with them. red and black are just **** out of luck. since i am a big fan of rakdos aggro i am well acquainted with how untouchable enchantments can be.
Sounds better than land. Awesome nonbasic land is just unfair. Enchantment is probably the next least interactive, though.
My cube
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I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon Jura
//Blue
1 Jace Beleren
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Liliana of the Veil
//Green
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
//Red
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Venser, the Sojourner
In the past we have run Sorin Markov, Liliana Vess, Karn Liberated and Sarkhan the Mad. Vess was taken out during the RtR update. Vraska the Unseen may make it into the cube in the future but I am holding off due to budgetary reasons.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=221863
The first page of my Cube list also includes my cube workbook for excel, feel free to look at and use it if you would like to.
the majority of them already do. that's the biggest problem with walkers: even if you deal with them quickly and efficiently, you're still usually 2:1ed.
Not saying you're wrong, because you're absolutely right, just that there's more to removing planeswalkers, as there's more to winning a game of magic than card advantage.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.