In the MODO cube green based super ramp decks are one of the most powerful. Though it feels like be overkill from time to time with all the mana, it is certainly an archetype that earns a second view. As easy as it is these decks need to generate a ton of mana and something to do with the mana. This can be creatures or big spells like Tooth and Nail or Genesis Wave.
I like to do things when I ramp to some amount of mana. Nothing is more frustrating than 9 manas turn 5 into nothing. So, I like the possibility of drafting ramp.
I think you listed the main components of green ramp.
I think it's a fun archetype, but not really a necessary one. Ramp is a great strategy in my cube, and wins games regularly. But it's more of a "produce extra mana to play 5-7 drops in the mid-game" type of ramp. Tooth and Nail was always just overkill for us. 9 mana into 2 superfatties wins games, but an early 7-drop seems to seal the deal just about as well, and a couple turns faster.
I think it can be important for bigger cubes to have it, and if I were playing a 720 like the MTGO cube, I'd be supporting this archetype for sure.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I support this archetype. I don't include Wave or Channel though, as I think there's better options.
I do however include Kozilek as well. I think he's a little better than his Eldrazi cousin, because you'll draw another fatty when you cast him, setting yourself up for the next turn.
I dislikei tooth and nail in cube. For 9 mana, I feel like it should literally win the game on the spot. While it's possible to draft a kiki-jiki combo or some trisk variation, it's not likely, and I found most people just left it in the sideboard because they didn't have enough targets. I'd rather just have a another big guy instead.
I currently play more fatties than most, but I prefer a more toolbox ramp. Green Sun, worldly tutor, eldamri's call, natural order, and birthing pod are all great at grabbing a utility creature or a fatty so and most people aren't playing all of those so I don't think genesis wave would ever make the cut in my cube. If I can ever trade for a tooth and nail reasonably I will try it out but I fear that it would have t otake the place of one of my fatties and that is fairly counterproductive.
I know most people don't feel they are primetime cube cards but elvish piper and gamekeeper have been fun for getting fatties into play much earlier than tooth or genesis wave ever would.
Having tons of ramp is important to me but mroe so because my group tends to overdraft green and they all are looking to get multiple accelerators
It's all about Natural Order. So good. Tooth and Nail probably makes for great stories, but I agree with eidolon that it requires poor deckbuilding choices to make work. Channel is more respectable, but requires a crazy amount of green mana to play any of the big ramp targets other than the Eldrazi, whom I think are too narrow for cube.
Pattern of Rebirth is another one I haven't seen mentioned that is an effective tutor.
Channel is fine with Artifact creatures: turn two Myr Battlesphere or Sundering Titan or Wurmcoil is usually solid. As these also support Tinker and Reanimator decks I have never felt the need to include the slightly narrower Eldrazi.
Tooth and Nail made for some good stories, but was ultimately too narrow.
I have found Natural Order and GSZ to be excellent at improving the consistency of my Ramp decks.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Channel is fine with Artifact creatures: turn two Myr Battlesphere or Sundering Titan or Wurmcoil is usually solid. As these also support Tinker and Reanimator decks I have never felt the need to include the slightly narrower Eldrazi.
Tooth and Nail made for some good stories, but was ultimately too narrow.
I have found Natural Order and GSZ to be excellent at improving the consistency of my Ramp decks.
I agree exactly with this entire post.
Channel is also nutty with the Swords. T1 Elf, T2 Sword+Equip+Swing is really good. It's bonkers if the sword is Sword of Feast and Famine, because they you can follow up with even more craziness.
Channel is also nutty with the Swords. T1 Elf, T2 Sword+Equip+Swing is really good. It's bonkers if the sword is Sword of Feast and Famine, because they you can follow up with even more craziness.
Or War and Peace, because both players' hands are pretty much full.
I think that this is a very good archetype to support because ramp sets Green apart and having some super fatties in Green also sets it apart. However, I agree that what you're ramping into is important and most people seem to have had more consistent success with just some good fatties. I don't run Eldrazi or Tooth and Nail or Genesis Wave.
I think with this type of deck, it's good to consider the overlap with related strategies. Natural Order obviously plays well with Green fatties, and so does reanimation so there's the natural synergy. Ramp also plays well with any fatties, and so does Show and Tell, ramp (including Green ramp) plays well with artifact fatties (cards already mentioned like Sundering Titan) and so does Tinker.
So, for me, I want to include the types of cards that are going to be able to be played in a number of different types of decks like this and that can showcase interesting hybrid decks.
I want to test out a superramp package to see if it can work in a fast-ish cube, and I'm not sure if it can. But if I test the package out, I want to make sure I'm giving it all the support it needs to work.
I want to test out a superramp package to see if it can work in a fast-ish cube, and I'm not sure if it can. But if I test the package out, I want to make sure I'm giving it all the support it needs to work.
I think Eldrazi could be fine with a lot of cards that produce a lot of mana. They are much better when cast, so I don't think Tooth and Nail is necessary. Show and Tell and Eureka are a different story because they are much cheaper. Awakening Zone could be quite good, and it is reasonable in other archetypes as well (Ramp, Tokens, Pox or something).
So, for me, I want to include the types of cards that are going to be able to be played in a number of different types of decks like this and that can showcase interesting hybrid decks.
This is very much my philosophy as well.
I find cheating the legendary Eldrazi into play strangely unsatisfying because you lose out on the when cast abililty.
I don't much like Tooth and Nail in cube, because it is only any good in the ramp strategy. I guess it could be fun if you also have some two-creature-combo-kills, but even then it doesn't interest me much.
I think that trying to ramp to anything above eight mana is likely to be too inconsistent. Trying to ramp into Eldrazi means that you can't even use cards like Natural Order or Green Sun's Zenith to support the strategy.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I'm going to try it out and see if I can get it to work. I've never messed around with it too much in the cube, because it's all for fun and not really a necessary archetype, but I think we could have some fun sneaking Eldrazi and other big fat monsters into play. I have a few extra slots to play around with at 500, so why not?
I can see this archetype working and being fun, but is it stronger then 'regular' ramp? Is it worth the effort including these narrow cards when ramping with mana elves, six to eight mana finishers and Natural Order works just fine?
Again it looks fun, but does it increase the power level of green?
I can see this archetype working and being fun, but is it stronger then 'regular' ramp? Is it worth the effort including these narrow cards when ramping with mana elves, six to eight mana finishers and Natural Order works just fine?
Again it looks fun, but does it increase the power level of green?
It's a lot of fun but waters down packs a lot IMO, I'd include it but I get my fix every time the modo cube rolls around
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I'm playing both in my super-ramp package, and so far, Kozilek has been the far better Eldrazi. Drawing 4 cards is better than Indestructible + Vindicate in the particular deck that wants Eldrazi in it. But they've both been pretty fun. And ya, Emrakul would just be too expensive for pretty much any deck, even super ramp (unless you have a Wake out).
Just an easy question. Which Eldrazo do you think is the best? Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre or Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. I think we agree that Emrakul is too expensive. I end to think Kozilek but I am not sure.
I'm playing both in my super-ramp package, and so far, Kozilek has been the far better Eldrazi. Drawing 4 cards is better than Indestructible + Vindicate in the particular deck that wants Eldrazi in it. But they've both been pretty fun. And ya, Emrakul would just be too expensive for pretty much any deck, even super ramp (unless you have a Wake out).
I have played these two Eldrazi since the RoE release, and I must agree with wtwlf. Kozilek is best (the difference between 10 and 11 mana shouldn't be underestimated). And the ability of drawing four is better as well.
The most broken super-ramp deck I had had a couple of games where I played Kozilek followed up by Ulamog the turn after.
We also found Emrakul to be too expensive leaving it to only be cheated into play. That seemed a little to fringe for us, so I ended up cutting it.
1. Is it possible to support both green aggro and super ramp at unpowered 375-450?
2. What are some archetype-supporting cards that have other uses in cube? I'm not super interested in running Channel, for instance, but Nissa, Worldwaker seems plausible.
3. How many 7cmc+ targets are needed? I'm currently running Hornet Queen, Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, Ulamog, Karn, and Void Winnower, which is my placeholder for new Emrakul. I'm planning to add Atarka and am considering Simic Sky Swallower. Is that enough? I also support reanimator, so I want there to be enough fatties to go around.
4. Does your group find this a fun archetype?
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
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1. Is it possible to support both green aggro and super ramp at unpowered 375-450?
I do see cube lists that do it, but it often comes at the expense of having access to quality midrange creatures in green. The aggro 1-drops available to support green really don't excite me, with the exceptions of Experiment One and Kessig Prowler, so at 450-465 I support midrange with quality 2-4 drop beaters in addition to the tools for ramp decks.
2. What are some archetype-supporting cards that have other uses in cube? I'm not super interested in running Channel, for instance, but Nissa, Worldwaker seems plausible.
Nissa's a fine example, and Garruk Wildspeaker is also great in ramp decks as well as midrange. Lotus Cobra's solid in ramp as well as more aggressive strategies. Tireless Tracker grows fast and keeps the cards flowing in aggro-midrange decks, but it really gets out of hand fast in green decks built to ramp. Courser of Kruphix is also a reasonable midrange beater that keep lands flowing while holding off early aggression for ramp decks. Mana rocks that Wildfire/Upheaval/Tinker and control decks want are perfectly reasonable picks for ramp decks. All the fatties you play in ramp decks will also get poached by Sneak & Show and reanimator decks.
3. How many 7cmc+ targets are needed? I'm currently running Hornet Queen, Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, Ulamog, Karn, and Void Winnower, which is my placeholder for new Emrakul. I'm planning to add Atarka and am considering Simic Sky Swallower. Is that enough? I also support reanimator, so I want there to be enough fatties to go around.
Because they get poached by multiple archetypes, it's a good idea to have plenty that are good for reanimator and Tinker decks as well as ramp.
It's pretty easy for green ramp decks to "splash" for high-end creatures that are 2 off-color mana symbols, so it's not that unusual for Titans of any color or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to make their way into a heavy green ramp deck as well as green and colorless fatties.
4. Does your group find this a fun archetype?
Absolutely. In an 8-10 man draft, it's not unusual to have 3 or more people fighting over the tools to ramp and different kinds of fattie-cheat decks. I really recommend supporting ramp.
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In the MODO cube green based super ramp decks are one of the most powerful. Though it feels like be overkill from time to time with all the mana, it is certainly an archetype that earns a second view. As easy as it is these decks need to generate a ton of mana and something to do with the mana. This can be creatures or big spells like Tooth and Nail or Genesis Wave.
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I think you listed the main components of green ramp.
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I think it can be important for bigger cubes to have it, and if I were playing a 720 like the MTGO cube, I'd be supporting this archetype for sure.
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primeval titan is the absolute most essential element of this deck.
I do however include Kozilek as well. I think he's a little better than his Eldrazi cousin, because you'll draw another fatty when you cast him, setting yourself up for the next turn.
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I know most people don't feel they are primetime cube cards but elvish piper and gamekeeper have been fun for getting fatties into play much earlier than tooth or genesis wave ever would.
Having tons of ramp is important to me but mroe so because my group tends to overdraft green and they all are looking to get multiple accelerators
Pattern of Rebirth is another one I haven't seen mentioned that is an effective tutor.
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Tooth and Nail made for some good stories, but was ultimately too narrow.
I have found Natural Order and GSZ to be excellent at improving the consistency of my Ramp decks.
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I agree exactly with this entire post.
Channel is also nutty with the Swords. T1 Elf, T2 Sword+Equip+Swing is really good. It's bonkers if the sword is Sword of Feast and Famine, because they you can follow up with even more craziness.
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Or War and Peace, because both players' hands are pretty much full.
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I think with this type of deck, it's good to consider the overlap with related strategies. Natural Order obviously plays well with Green fatties, and so does reanimation so there's the natural synergy. Ramp also plays well with any fatties, and so does Show and Tell, ramp (including Green ramp) plays well with artifact fatties (cards already mentioned like Sundering Titan) and so does Tinker.
So, for me, I want to include the types of cards that are going to be able to be played in a number of different types of decks like this and that can showcase interesting hybrid decks.
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I have Channel and Sneak Attack in already, as well as Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and Primeval Titan.
If I added in Show and Tell, Eureka, Worn Powerstone, Thran Dynamo, Gilded Lotus and Somberwald Sage, do you think that would be enough support to run the two good big Eldrazi? Is Tooth and Nail a must if you're running both Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre? How is Awakening Zone in this archetype?
I want to test out a superramp package to see if it can work in a fast-ish cube, and I'm not sure if it can. But if I test the package out, I want to make sure I'm giving it all the support it needs to work.
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This is very much my philosophy as well.
I find cheating the legendary Eldrazi into play strangely unsatisfying because you lose out on the when cast abililty.
I don't much like Tooth and Nail in cube, because it is only any good in the ramp strategy. I guess it could be fun if you also have some two-creature-combo-kills, but even then it doesn't interest me much.
I think that trying to ramp to anything above eight mana is likely to be too inconsistent. Trying to ramp into Eldrazi means that you can't even use cards like Natural Order or Green Sun's Zenith to support the strategy.
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Again it looks fun, but does it increase the power level of green?
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
It's a lot of fun but waters down packs a lot IMO, I'd include it but I get my fix every time the modo cube rolls around
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I have played these two Eldrazi since the RoE release, and I must agree with wtwlf. Kozilek is best (the difference between 10 and 11 mana shouldn't be underestimated). And the ability of drawing four is better as well.
The most broken super-ramp deck I had had a couple of games where I played Kozilek followed up by Ulamog the turn after.
We also found Emrakul to be too expensive leaving it to only be cheated into play. That seemed a little to fringe for us, so I ended up cutting it.
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1. Is it possible to support both green aggro and super ramp at unpowered 375-450?
2. What are some archetype-supporting cards that have other uses in cube? I'm not super interested in running Channel, for instance, but Nissa, Worldwaker seems plausible.
3. How many 7cmc+ targets are needed? I'm currently running Hornet Queen, Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, Ulamog, Karn, and Void Winnower, which is my placeholder for new Emrakul. I'm planning to add Atarka and am considering Simic Sky Swallower. Is that enough? I also support reanimator, so I want there to be enough fatties to go around.
4. Does your group find this a fun archetype?
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I do see cube lists that do it, but it often comes at the expense of having access to quality midrange creatures in green. The aggro 1-drops available to support green really don't excite me, with the exceptions of Experiment One and Kessig Prowler, so at 450-465 I support midrange with quality 2-4 drop beaters in addition to the tools for ramp decks.
Nissa's a fine example, and Garruk Wildspeaker is also great in ramp decks as well as midrange. Lotus Cobra's solid in ramp as well as more aggressive strategies. Tireless Tracker grows fast and keeps the cards flowing in aggro-midrange decks, but it really gets out of hand fast in green decks built to ramp. Courser of Kruphix is also a reasonable midrange beater that keep lands flowing while holding off early aggression for ramp decks. Mana rocks that Wildfire/Upheaval/Tinker and control decks want are perfectly reasonable picks for ramp decks. All the fatties you play in ramp decks will also get poached by Sneak & Show and reanimator decks.
Because they get poached by multiple archetypes, it's a good idea to have plenty that are good for reanimator and Tinker decks as well as ramp.
In green I'm running Hornet Queen, Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, and Worldspine Wurm plus Dragonlord Atarka. In colorless I'm running Battle Ball, Sundering Titan, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, and Newlamog plus Ugin.
It's pretty easy for green ramp decks to "splash" for high-end creatures that are 2 off-color mana symbols, so it's not that unusual for Titans of any color or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to make their way into a heavy green ramp deck as well as green and colorless fatties.
Absolutely. In an 8-10 man draft, it's not unusual to have 3 or more people fighting over the tools to ramp and different kinds of fattie-cheat decks. I really recommend supporting ramp.
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