People ran him on regular basis some time ago. Is he still fine for the artifact.dec and with the inclsuion of some bigger mana stones like Gilded Lotus and such?
What are you expecting to animate to make this better than one of the typically played 5 mana creatures Precursor Golem, Razormane Masticore or Batterskull?
Artifacts.
I mean, with a few artifacts out, I can get a whole army of dudes with Karn. They're noncreatures before he animates them, making good use of wraths and sweeper effects. And he shoots moxen.
It depends a bit on the matchup and if you have removal to clear the path for your attackers or not. Even two Signets turn into decent damage dealers once the coast is clear. And Karn himself will smash for 4, too. If your opponent should have blockers though, Karn becomes a really good blocker himself, giving you more time to find ways to kill the opposing creatures or to win the game in another way.
Karn is great. Even if you are not beating with him, eating moxen and shutting down equipment is solid value. Killing Jittes and Swords with Lightning Bolt is also priceless. I'd even play Karn outside of artifact decks, he is very versatile.
I thought we were the only cube group that liked Karn! Karn using buddy!
Been playing Karn for a long time here, and we like him just fine! While a little better in powered cubes (with more ability to both power him out and more targets to 'shoot'), turning your mana rocks into an army works just fine as well. The ability to shut off equipment is pretty valuable as well as that card type continues to get better.
I couldn't disagree more with the 13-mana comment. I can't even fathom where that comment originated.
If you don't have a creature removal spell or your opponent does not have a noncreature artifact on the table, but one or more regular creatures that can block (and even a birdie can block Karn and survive), you still do not want your 5 drop to do something. When you are reliably able to swing in for 8 minus whatever non-Karn creature gets blocked, that might just be good enough to still win the game. 5+8=13
So it's not worth playing a 5-drop unless it can attack for at least 17? Every 5-drop needs to be able to get in for at least 8 damage even if my opponent has 2 blockers? What?
Karn attacks for 4 but gets blocked. So you're saying your 5-drop needs to provide at least 17 points of power across multiple threats so you can still get in for 13 even if they have a blocker? Or 8 damage if they have 2 blockers? That seems like a completely ridiculous and unfair hurdle for any 5-drop to have to meet.
And that's already assuming that your opponent has no non-creature artifacts at all. And that you have no removal for their blocker so that Karn can get in for damage. That's a lot of assumptions.
I'm definitely willing to be persuaded, because I've always though he was a cool ass creature. This seems like a card I wouldn't want to play outside of an artifact deck, but isn't even absurdly powerful in one. I understand that it has a myriad of uses, but none of them seem to make up for the cardinal sin of failing the Terminate, Disenchant, and Flame Slash test at five mana.
So basically it seems narrow in playability and mediocre in practice. Does it not play like this?
Ftk, Fireblast, Flame Slash, Burst Lightning, Flame Jav, Firebolt with flashback, Char, Wildfire, Burning of X, P Blast, Prophetic Bolt, and Mizzium Mortars.
But really, it wasn't my intention to create a new test so much as to show how fragile the artifact creature is at 4 toughness.
His weakness to the wildfire decks is a concern. However, the deck he saw constructed play in was.... Kai buddies wildfire deck =P. When you artifact ramp with wildfires, and then put him down after a board sweep, its often GG. (although it was a 1 of include).
That deck is up there with nether void black, and the pebbles variants as my most fav of all time. Happy to put Karn back in.
Ftk, Fireblast, Flame Slash, Burst Lightning, Flame Jav, Firebolt with flashback, Char, Staggershock, Wildfire, Burning of X, P Blast, Prophetic Bolt, and Mizzium Mortars.
But really, it wasn't my intention to create a new test so much as to show how fragile the artifact creature is at 4 toughness.
4 mana creatures don't fail the terminate test because they're two mana more than the spell being used to kill it. Therefore, Karn wouldn't fail a "Flame Slash" test to anything 3 or more mana, which is every card on that list EXCEPT Flame Slash and Mizzium Mortars.
4 mana creatures don't fail the terminate test because they're two mana more than the spell being used to kill it. Therefore, Karn wouldn't fail a "Flame Slash" test to anything 3 or more mana, which is every card on that list EXCEPT Flame Slash and Mizzium Mortars.
And Staggershock doesn't even kill him.
Again, I don't care if it is a test or not. Everything you say here is true, but none of it addresses the point, which is it is a five mana creature that does nothing the turn it comes into play, and is probably as fragile as a 0/1, thanks to dying to every piece of artifact removal.
It usually goes into a deck with a TON of artifacts. Which typically means their artifact removal has been used on your other targets. He very seldom gets shattered, because the effects are almost always used up on your Grim Monoliths and stuff.
In a deck designed to use him, he usually means big damage if you can untap with him. In addition to his utility of disabling equipment, shooting moxen and allowing me to burn, bounce and destroy my opponents noncreature artifacts.
I think that in a post-Scars world, Karn is a pretty tough sell, but even then I don't think the "dies to removal" or the "needs 23872934 mana worth of artifacts" arguments help to convince.
You can use your counter from Relic to turn it into a 3/3, too! So efficient!
I don't think anyone here is going to tell you that Karn is a must-include (not this Karn, anyway), but those of us who do use/have used it find it fun and useful enough to play with. He certainly is no Wurmcoil Engine or even a Precursor Golem, but his ceiling is actually higher than any of them.
I cut Karn, Silver Golem years ago, but two things changed now: My cube is bigger now and - more importantly - I am actively supporting the artifact deck as an archetype. Plus, the colorless 5-drop slot is still pretty barren: Nothing truly worthy after Batterskull and Precursor Golem. So I was wondering if I should give Karn another try. Is anyone here running him at the moment?
People ran him on regular basis some time ago. Is he still fine for the artifact.dec and with the inclsuion of some bigger mana stones like Gilded Lotus and such?
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Artifacts.
I mean, with a few artifacts out, I can get a whole army of dudes with Karn. They're noncreatures before he animates them, making good use of wraths and sweeper effects. And he shoots moxen.
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I don't agree.
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I thought we were the only cube group that liked Karn! Karn using buddy!
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I couldn't disagree more with the 13-mana comment. I can't even fathom where that comment originated.
-AA
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So it's not worth playing a 5-drop unless it can attack for at least 17? Every 5-drop needs to be able to get in for at least 8 damage even if my opponent has 2 blockers? What?
Karn attacks for 4 but gets blocked. So you're saying your 5-drop needs to provide at least 17 points of power across multiple threats so you can still get in for 13 even if they have a blocker? Or 8 damage if they have 2 blockers? That seems like a completely ridiculous and unfair hurdle for any 5-drop to have to meet.
And that's already assuming that your opponent has no non-creature artifacts at all. And that you have no removal for their blocker so that Karn can get in for damage. That's a lot of assumptions.
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So basically it seems narrow in playability and mediocre in practice. Does it not play like this?
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Ftk, Fireblast, Flame Slash, Burst Lightning, Flame Jav, Firebolt with flashback, Char, Wildfire, Burning of X, P Blast, Prophetic Bolt, and Mizzium Mortars.
But really, it wasn't my intention to create a new test so much as to show how fragile the artifact creature is at 4 toughness.
That deck is up there with nether void black, and the pebbles variants as my most fav of all time. Happy to put Karn back in.
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4 mana creatures don't fail the terminate test because they're two mana more than the spell being used to kill it. Therefore, Karn wouldn't fail a "Flame Slash" test to anything 3 or more mana, which is every card on that list EXCEPT Flame Slash and Mizzium Mortars.
And Staggershock doesn't even kill him.
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Again, I don't care if it is a test or not. Everything you say here is true, but none of it addresses the point, which is it is a five mana creature that does nothing the turn it comes into play, and is probably as fragile as a 0/1, thanks to dying to every piece of artifact removal.
In a deck designed to use him, he usually means big damage if you can untap with him. In addition to his utility of disabling equipment, shooting moxen and allowing me to burn, bounce and destroy my opponents noncreature artifacts.
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I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
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I don't think anyone here is going to tell you that Karn is a must-include (not this Karn, anyway), but those of us who do use/have used it find it fun and useful enough to play with. He certainly is no Wurmcoil Engine or even a Precursor Golem, but his ceiling is actually higher than any of them.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!