Hey folks! Just wanted to take a moment to note that we've reached 100 pages in discussion of what some disparagingly refer to as "dirty red." Looking back as far as the original developing discussion, this family of fire variants has proven to be one of the most resilient and difficult for the meta to pin down. Some would argue that BR Zombies is the "better" deck, but our Human/Vampire-based lists have proven much more difficult to hate out and thus we more easily ride the waves of meta shift.
I tip my hat to many of my brothers here who do so much in testing and play to move this variant forward...I'm not going to get into trying to name you all as I would invariably leave someone off the list, but you each know who you are and this place and this deck would not be here without you. I raise my glass!
Just FYI, Rakdos's Return is gramatically correct. You only omit the second s if the first is a consequence of pluralization.
Been testing Dos Rakis lately and it's been going well. With the resurgence of BR decks, I've split my twos again (to 4 AZ, 2 KoI, 2 GHC), allowing me to reduce my black source count for a little more consistency.
Actually this appears to be a source of controversy much like the Oxford comma.
I keep going back and forth between a Hellrider build and a Helllkite build. This might just be a meta decision. Any opinions?
Depends on how fast you want to kill and if you think you can win attacking into restoration angels periodically with your hellrider. On the play, with 24 lands, hellrider is generally going to enable turn 4 and 5 kills. However, if there are enough huntmasters and generally Naya decks running about, Thundermaw looks more appealing since it can go over the top both literally and figuratively.
BE WARY. Many naya decks run selesnya charm as a 3-4 of so plan your attacks carefully and factor in how badly you're getting blown out if/when they have it. Personally, I like keeping my hellkites in the board. Then again, that's with mono-red and I haven't played Dos Rakis in a while so take my advice with a grain of salt.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I'm playing the deck as tranformational and it is really screwing with other players because they are having trouble siding appropriately. The main deck plays like red sligh with the added punch of Aristocrat and Knight. Hellrider with all the 1- and 2-drops can mean a very fast clock if I curve out, and having him on the field with Aristocrat just feels dirty. Sometimes I don't even attack with him because he is worth more as recurrent damage against decks that lack the reach to remove him.
Depending on what I am up against, post-SB the deck shifts big. Against creature decks, I drop Hellrider in favor of Olivia as she can win by herself if they have no answer. If there are tokens, flyers and the like, then Hellkite comes in to punch through damage. Some of the one-drops come out in favor of more burn and removal as needed, and I now have a deck that can still get in early kills but is fine with going into the long game.
I do need to tweak a bit...Angel of Serenity shenanigans are just too annoying and prevalent in my meta, and the Predator Ooze deck is popping up. Thus, I need to shoehorn in some number of Sever the Bloodline and Conscripts. I hate to dilute the sideboard out any more, but I also hate struggling with the same decks.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I am considering this deck or BR Zombies. What makes this deck better than BR Zombies? Thanks in advance.
different playstyle decks one (Dos Rakis) is basically a Sligh build where B/R Zombies (not that it is really tribal anymore) is more of an Aggressive Midrange style build in short Dos Rakis = bigger early game with more 1 drops usually 12? and more Red based. BR Zombies = more of a going bigger approach think sledgehammer with a black base
I'm playing the deck as tranformational and it is really screwing with other players because they are having trouble siding appropriately. The main deck plays like red sligh with the added punch of Aristocrat and Knight. Hellrider with all the 1- and 2-drops can mean a very fast clock if I curve out, and having him on the field with Aristocrat just feels dirty. Sometimes I don't even attack with him because he is worth more as recurrent damage against decks that lack the reach to remove him.
Depending on what I am up against, post-SB the deck shifts big. Against creature decks, I drop Hellrider in favor of Olivia as she can win by herself if they have no answer. If there are tokens, flyers and the like, then Hellkite comes in to punch through damage. Some of the one-drops come out in favor of more burn and removal as needed, and I now have a deck that can still get in early kills but is fine with going into the long game.
I do need to tweak a bit...Angel of Serenity shenanigans are just too annoying and prevalent in my meta, and the Predator Ooze deck is popping up. Thus, I need to shoehorn in some number of Sever the Bloodline and Conscripts. I hate to dilute the sideboard out any more, but I also hate struggling with the same decks.
I really like it. My main is really close to yours. I'm running 23 lands main and one more pillar. I have been unable to get Cavern here yet. Looks like ordering is gonna happen soon, want them for too many decks :D. My manabase is the 8 better duals, 11 mountains, 3 swamps, 1 guildgate. So far that has been adequate for the main and if I only board in 2 or so additional black spells.
I've found it to be a really solid main. My board uses appetite for brains and duress over slaughter games right now. I have my 24th land there for bringing the Hellkite's which is lots of fun.
Have fun playing it and let us know how that many of Olivia goes.
the mana base isn't that different basically one you run more mountains and less guildgates and opposite with the other.
Dos Rakis is a Rb deck that only plays 8 spells MD that require B mana.
Zombies is a Br deck that plays like 20+ spells MD that require R mana - many require RR.
It's not the number of dual lands available that makes Dos Rakis have a more stable mana base, it's how intensive the splash is. Dos Rakis is significantly less likely to get color screwed.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Dos Rakis is a Rb deck that only plays 8 spells MD that require B mana.
Zombies is a Br deck that plays like 20+ spells MD that require R mana - many require RR.
It's not the number of dual lands available that makes Dos Rakis have a more stable mana base, it's how intensive the splash is. Dos Rakis is significantly less likely to get color screwed.
You are correct.
though I love red I personally don't like RDW and that is why I favor zombies. Less consistent maybe but more powerful all in all.
You are correct.
though I love red I personally don't like RDW and that is why I favor zombies. Less consistent maybe but more powerful all in all.
Loved RDW and tweaked almost everyday but sadly, Red source is limited which is why Dos Rakis is much flexible and i dont even need to tweak often bec. its more consistent specially with removals and discarding w/o even sacrificing the speed of your deck like RDW ftw!!.. i'll never go zombies route for sure!!
Question: Im thinking of putting KOI to side bec. of G/W's missing in action here. im thinking of adding shred freak for additional speed and the color is friendly but lightning mauler is good too with haste for your friends like cackler or noble so what will you guys suggest..
Yes!! thank you man... I guess adding a friend for haste will not matter and SF can evade ultimate price also, i always side out KOI vs BR zombies so thanks again
Really? I thought the Mauler (at least in more aggresive builds) was favored because of Mauler -> Pyreheart Wolf-> Hellrider. Am I wrong to push potential upside over consistency?
I think Lightning Mauler is a fine card in a removal-light meta if you have a lot of value at the 3-drop slot (Hellhole Flailer). In Pyreheart Wolf's case, he only provides as much value as the creatures swinging with him, so pairing him with Lightning Mauler isn't very exciting.
In an ideal scenario, you would curve out like so -
T1 Stromkirk Noble
T2 Lightning Mauler, unpaired, swing with Noble (1 damage threatened)
T3 Pyreheart Wolf, swing with everyone (5 damage threatened)
Which isn't particularly impressive. Plus, you're quite vulnerable after turns 2 and 3, up until the Declare Attackers step. Any removal will kill Lightning Mauler and ruin your tempo.
The real value propostion of Pyreheart Wolf is turn 4 when you pop a Hellrider, swing with the whole team for a bunch of triggers and laugh as half of your creatures go unblocked. In the case of your 2-drop spot, Ash Zealot is our best choice because it provides haste without any restrictions. If you need another hasty 2-drop, Rakdos Shred-Freak is the better choice because he can attack for 2 after a sweeper without a buddy.
I don't like Lightning Mauler or Rakdos Shred-Freak, for the record. But I think Shreddy is the better of the two in most situations.
I've thought about Lightning Mauler in a sligh-type RB build. One issue with him is that there are only a couple of creatures I actually want him to give haste to in the same build. Giving haste to a Stromkirk Noble or Rakdos Cackler is typically suboptimal as the board is usually developed enough by turn three that I won't be swinging with these two as my opponent will usually have a body on their side that either trades with it or outright kills it depending on if I'm on the play or draw. There are certain situations where he could come in handy, say if I have a Searing Spear in hand to clear the creature before playing the one-drop.
The only other creature I'd be excited to give haste that doesn't have it already is Hellhole Flailer. A turn three 4/3 with haste is pretty nice. If some Dos Rakis builds are running Hound of Griselbrand in the sideboard I guess that'd be another good creature, but who is doing that? Only a BR sligh build would have that kind of sideboard option to side out his/her Hellriders in the GW aggro matchup.
Yeah I actually went and did the math after I posted. Shred-freak threatens more damage, albiet only 1 more, but hey, a turn 4 kill against an unlcky opponent is still better than a turn 5 kill.
In this goldfish scenario, Lightning Mauler represents 2 more damage on the board. The question then becomes one of consistency. In that case, I COULD play Lightning Mauler as a turn-two hasty creature by bonding him with my Rakdos Cackler if I don't have a Hellhole Flailer in my hand.
Seems to me that the Lightning Mauler is the better choice due to flexibility. He's obviously not as good post-sweeper when he's being played on his own, but he's otherwise the same card as Shred-Freak when we want him to be and even better with a Flailer attached the following turn.
That would be true, but then you have to remove yourself from a goldfish scenario and look at reality. Turn three with a hasted Pyreheart Wolf means you are definitely getting through with all of your creatures if on the play and almost certainly are getting through on the draw. If you play an unhasted Wolf on turn three, do you think you'll be able to get through that 2/2 creature your opponent played on his second turn? What about that Centaur Healer on his third turn if you're on the draw?
I mean Hellhole Flailer is best agains control. Correct me if I am wrong, but control plays white nowadays. We won't be cutting ash zealot fo KoI so Mauler gets cut for the same matches you would want Flailer for. So I guess Flailer wouldn't be paired with Mauler in most cases since yor optimal 2 drops would be KoI and Zealot. So the pairing, for reality's sake, would have to be with PHW. I started writing this before you replied so I guess Mauler would still be better against the creature heavy deck that you want PHW for.
I keep going back and forth between wanting to play a sligh build like this or a big build with Hellkites. Not sure which to go with. I don't have Cavern of Souls yet so I might avoid the big build initially as I fear it's too slow to put up with the durdle decks I've seen around me locally that play copious amounts of counter magic. For reference:
I tip my hat to many of my brothers here who do so much in testing and play to move this variant forward...I'm not going to get into trying to name you all as I would invariably leave someone off the list, but you each know who you are and this place and this deck would not be here without you. I raise my glass!
Actually this appears to be a source of controversy much like the Oxford comma.
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/possessives.htm
But let's not digress.
I keep going back and forth between a Hellrider build and a Helllkite build. This might just be a meta decision. Any opinions?
Depends on how fast you want to kill and if you think you can win attacking into restoration angels periodically with your hellrider. On the play, with 24 lands, hellrider is generally going to enable turn 4 and 5 kills. However, if there are enough huntmasters and generally Naya decks running about, Thundermaw looks more appealing since it can go over the top both literally and figuratively.
BE WARY. Many naya decks run selesnya charm as a 3-4 of so plan your attacks carefully and factor in how badly you're getting blown out if/when they have it. Personally, I like keeping my hellkites in the board. Then again, that's with mono-red and I haven't played Dos Rakis in a while so take my advice with a grain of salt.
I just moved over to a build last week that doesn't make me choose and I'm loving it.
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
3 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Knight of Infamy
3 Hellrider
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
Lands (24)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rakdos Guildgate
8 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
2 Brimstone Volley
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Ultimate Price
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Olivia Voldaren
2 Slaughter Games
3 Rakdos Charm
2 Flames of the Firebrand
I'm playing the deck as tranformational and it is really screwing with other players because they are having trouble siding appropriately. The main deck plays like red sligh with the added punch of Aristocrat and Knight. Hellrider with all the 1- and 2-drops can mean a very fast clock if I curve out, and having him on the field with Aristocrat just feels dirty. Sometimes I don't even attack with him because he is worth more as recurrent damage against decks that lack the reach to remove him.
Depending on what I am up against, post-SB the deck shifts big. Against creature decks, I drop Hellrider in favor of Olivia as she can win by herself if they have no answer. If there are tokens, flyers and the like, then Hellkite comes in to punch through damage. Some of the one-drops come out in favor of more burn and removal as needed, and I now have a deck that can still get in early kills but is fine with going into the long game.
I do need to tweak a bit...Angel of Serenity shenanigans are just too annoying and prevalent in my meta, and the Predator Ooze deck is popping up. Thus, I need to shoehorn in some number of Sever the Bloodline and Conscripts. I hate to dilute the sideboard out any more, but I also hate struggling with the same decks.
The mana base and ability to play defense.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
different playstyle decks one (Dos Rakis) is basically a Sligh build where B/R Zombies (not that it is really tribal anymore) is more of an Aggressive Midrange style build in short
Dos Rakis = bigger early game with more 1 drops usually 12? and more Red based.
BR Zombies = more of a going bigger approach think sledgehammer with a black base
the mana base isn't that different basically one you run more mountains and less guildgates and opposite with the other.
in my build I actually splashed white for Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and I don't have a problem with it
3rd at Wisconsin States 2012
Standard:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next Lvl ZombiesB//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JUND Whedon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks to DNC @ Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Sig.
I really like it. My main is really close to yours. I'm running 23 lands main and one more pillar. I have been unable to get Cavern here yet. Looks like ordering is gonna happen soon, want them for too many decks :D. My manabase is the 8 better duals, 11 mountains, 3 swamps, 1 guildgate. So far that has been adequate for the main and if I only board in 2 or so additional black spells.
I've found it to be a really solid main. My board uses appetite for brains and duress over slaughter games right now. I have my 24th land there for bringing the Hellkite's which is lots of fun.
Have fun playing it and let us know how that many of Olivia goes.
Dos Rakis is a Rb deck that only plays 8 spells MD that require B mana.
Zombies is a Br deck that plays like 20+ spells MD that require R mana - many require RR.
It's not the number of dual lands available that makes Dos Rakis have a more stable mana base, it's how intensive the splash is. Dos Rakis is significantly less likely to get color screwed.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
You are correct.
though I love red I personally don't like RDW and that is why I favor zombies. Less consistent maybe but more powerful all in all.
3rd at Wisconsin States 2012
Standard:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next Lvl ZombiesB//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JUND Whedon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks to DNC @ Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Sig.
Loved RDW and tweaked almost everyday but sadly, Red source is limited which is why Dos Rakis is much flexible and i dont even need to tweak often bec. its more consistent specially with removals and discarding w/o even sacrificing the speed of your deck like RDW ftw!!.. i'll never go zombies route for sure!!
SF or LM????
Thanks in advance.
If you're determined to use a fragile 2/1 haster, you're probably better off picking the one that doesn't require a friend.
Watch my Twitch.tv stream.
Take the Ham Challenge.
In an ideal scenario, you would curve out like so -
T1 Stromkirk Noble
T2 Lightning Mauler, unpaired, swing with Noble (1 damage threatened)
T3 Pyreheart Wolf, swing with everyone (5 damage threatened)
Which isn't particularly impressive. Plus, you're quite vulnerable after turns 2 and 3, up until the Declare Attackers step. Any removal will kill Lightning Mauler and ruin your tempo.
The real value propostion of Pyreheart Wolf is turn 4 when you pop a Hellrider, swing with the whole team for a bunch of triggers and laugh as half of your creatures go unblocked. In the case of your 2-drop spot, Ash Zealot is our best choice because it provides haste without any restrictions. If you need another hasty 2-drop, Rakdos Shred-Freak is the better choice because he can attack for 2 after a sweeper without a buddy.
I don't like Lightning Mauler or Rakdos Shred-Freak, for the record. But I think Shreddy is the better of the two in most situations.
Watch my Twitch.tv stream.
Take the Ham Challenge.
Ash Zealot ****s on Shred-Freak man, it has First Strike and the burn thingy which is cool against flashback decks
Fires Rf Salvation
"We win because, much like fire-starting, we find a way to make it happen."
-Khaospawn
Mono-Red
RRR
The only other creature I'd be excited to give haste that doesn't have it already is Hellhole Flailer. A turn three 4/3 with haste is pretty nice. If some Dos Rakis builds are running Hound of Griselbrand in the sideboard I guess that'd be another good creature, but who is doing that? Only a BR sligh build would have that kind of sideboard option to side out his/her Hellriders in the GW aggro matchup.
Turn one: Mountain, Rakdos Cackler.
Turn two: Mountain, swing 2, Lightning Mauler.
Turn three: Dragonskull Summit, Hellhole Flailer unleashed, swing 8.
Turn four: Mountain, Hellrider, swing 15.
Now consider this one for Shred-Freak.
Turn one: Mountain, Rakdos Cackler.
Turn two: Mountain, Shred-Freak, swing 4.
Turn three: Dragonskull Summit, Hellhole Flailer, swing 4.
Turn four: Mountain, Hellrider, swing 15.
In this goldfish scenario, Lightning Mauler represents 2 more damage on the board. The question then becomes one of consistency. In that case, I COULD play Lightning Mauler as a turn-two hasty creature by bonding him with my Rakdos Cackler if I don't have a Hellhole Flailer in my hand.
Seems to me that the Lightning Mauler is the better choice due to flexibility. He's obviously not as good post-sweeper when he's being played on his own, but he's otherwise the same card as Shred-Freak when we want him to be and even better with a Flailer attached the following turn.
While we're on the subject of RB sligh, let me pose another deck idea.
2 Stonewright
3 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
3 Lightning Mauler
2 Knight of Infamy
3 Hellhole Flailer
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Hellrider
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
2 Brimstone Volley
Lands (22)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
1 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Swamp
12 Mountain
3 Appetite for Brains
2 Knight of Infamy
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Ultimate Price
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Hound of Griselbrand
I keep going back and forth between wanting to play a sligh build like this or a big build with Hellkites. Not sure which to go with. I don't have Cavern of Souls yet so I might avoid the big build initially as I fear it's too slow to put up with the durdle decks I've seen around me locally that play copious amounts of counter magic. For reference:
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
Spells (12)
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Rakdos Keyrune
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Swamp
11 Mountain
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Ultimate Price
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos Charm
3 Dreadbore
2 Appetite for Brains
3 Traitorous Blood