Yes, I agree. But if they announced the discontinuation openly, it would be at least clear as day that they really decided to bury the past and stick with the Modern as their Eternal flagship. Now, they're really sending mixed signal by releasing the Powered Cube in MODO for example...
The powered cube is a one shot phantom event adding no cards to the card pool of MODO.
Modern IS the only enternal format WoTC cares about. Dedicating an entire release soley to making the format more accessible is unheard of. Printing a set with shockland reprints to make them even easier to get. Making Modern FNM sanctionable in Jan.
There's a reason I've been selling my Legacy staples and acquiring Modern ones. The writing is on the wall.
So there's still a few big tourneys happening which are drawing a few hundred and smaller ones drawing dozens.
Statistically, Vintage tournaments are a rounding error. They just are. Legacy would be in a similar boat if SCG didn't adopt it.
The RL will keep making Legacy harder and more expensive to get into. WoTC will keep doing things to make Modern easier and cheaper to get into. There's no doubt that Modern will be the eternal format of choice, it's just a question of how long.
While I think it is pretty silly to invent an entire new format just to circumvent the RL, apparently it's what they did.
1. Which part of the policy allowed them to stop putting cards on the RL after Urza's Destiny? Because, if they could change that without worries about their integrity and given promises, they could also revoke the RL as whole if they wanted...
Here's the text of the 1999 reprint policy update which outlines the Urza block and no longer adding cards.
Magic: The Gathering®
Card Reprint Policy
9/28/99
Primary to the value of purchasing Magic® cards is the concept that each card will maintain a reasonable value over time. Because we're sensitive to this issue and to the ramifications of reprinting cards too soon or too often, we try to make decisions that won't negatively affect card collectability over time and that will enhance the value of cards you purchase.
To maintain your confidence in the Magic game as a collectible, we've created this Magic: The Gathering card reprint policy, which we will update periodically. It explains why we reprint cards and how many cards from which expansions you can expect to see reprinted in future Magic products.
Why We Reprint Cards
The Magic TCG has tremendous appeal as both a game and a collectible. For us, however, the Magic game is first and foremost a supreme game of strategy and skill. We choose to reprint cards from limited expansions in products such as the Anthologies™ box set and the Classic™ set because we believe (a) the cards we reprint make for enjoyable game play, and (b) all Magic players deserve an opportunity to play with these cards.
Border-Color Policy
Wizards of the Coast® understands that the Magic TCG appeals to many of you as a collectible as well as a game. It's always been our policy, therefore, to print a new card (one with a new name) with a black border before or at the same time as we print it with a white border. This rule also holds for existing cards reprinted with new illustrations. There are three notable exceptions to this policy:
The 1999 Starter card set includes a few new white-bordered cards created specifically for this starter-level product.
Portal Three Kingdoms™ products, which are intended for new players in Asia, contain all white-bordered cards.
The Fifth Edition™ set contains some white-bordered cards with new art. We felt a set with both black and white borders would be too confusing.
We feel that in these cases the cards weren't relevant to our largest base of players, so there was little harm in printing them for the first time with white borders.
The public opinion about card border color is clear: players greatly prefer black-bordered cards to white-bordered cards for aesthetic reasons. We believe, however, that our collectors and players want to maintain the collectability of older black-bordered cards. The following is a compromise we hope will address both concerns.
As of October 1, 1999, we reserve the right to reprint cards from the Mercadian Masques™ expansion and beyond in black borders with the original art. This new policy will give Magic players what they want-black borders more often-without undermining collectability. Whenever possible, we will attempt to distinguish reprinted cards from their original versions with a different expansion symbol. We take our past commitments seriously, so this new policy will not affect any card printed before the Mercadian Masques expansion. For example, we won't reprint an Ice Age™ uncommon card with the original art in a black border.
To support this new border-color policy, starter- and advanced-level products now have their own expansion symbols. The purpose of these symbols is to make it easy for players to distinguish an original card printed in an expert-level set from its reprint in a starter- or advanced-level set, thereby maintaining the original card's collectability.
Premium Cards
Premium cards have given the Magic TCG even greater appeal as a collectable card product. Premium cards will generally look the same as their regular counterparts, with the exceptions of black-bordered premium versions of white-bordered originals and modifications made for promotional premium cards. Minor differences in the premium card's text, such as the omission of reminder text, will sometimes be necessary.
Reserved Cards
In addition to the limited nature of our black-bordered products, much of a Magic card's collectability is determined by its availability for game play. Accordingly, we have created a list of "reserved" cards that we will never print again in a black or white border in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same rules text, mana cost, power, and toughness as another card. The exclusion of any particular card from the reserved-card list doesn't indicate that we have any plans to reprint that card. The current list of reserved cards includes:
All Limited Edition™ cards that don't appear in Fourth Edition™ or Ice Age
All uncommon and rare cards from Arabian Nights® and Antiquities® that don't appear in Revised Edition™, Fourth Edition, or Chronicles™
All rare cards from Legends®, The Dark®, Fallen Empires™, Ice Age, Homelands™, Alliances™, Mirage™, Visions™ and Weatherlight™ that haven't been reprinted with a white border
A complete list of the reserved cards can be found at the end of this document.
Reprinting Cards from the Urza Block
In accordance with the commitment made in our prior reprint policy, rare cards from Urza's Saga™, Urza's Legacy™, and Urza's Destiny™ that aren't reprinted in Classic Seventh Edition will be added to the reserved-card list. Additionally, we won't reprint more than 25% of the rare cards in these sets.
Non-English Cards
All policies described in this document apply both to English and non-English cards. The only exception arises when printing Magic for the first time in a new language; we may print some cards in that language with white borders (in a starter-level product, for example) without printing them with black borders first.
Wizards of the Coast won't print cards from the Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, or The Dark expansions with black or white borders in any additional languages, although cards from these expansions may be printed in non-English versions of Classic and Chronicles. Subsequent limited-edition expansions may be printed with black borders in additional languages. Wizards will periodically announce when any of these products are being removed from consideration for reprinting in additional languages.
Special-Purpose Reprints
All policies described in this document apply only to standard, non-premium, tournament-legal Magic cards. Wizards has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as factory sets and oversized cards.
2. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but might the exclusion clause be another loophole? I mean they stick to the RL but are they able to remove cards from it? Or does it only refer to cards that never were on the list?
They did remove cards from it in 2002, the same month that they released another revised policy with the line "no cards will be removed from this list." So... that's a mixed signal.
Here's the text of the 2002 policy:
Official Reprint Policy
July 2002
Primary to the value of purchasing Magic cards is the concept that
each card will maintain a reasonable value over time. Because we're
sensitive to this issue and to the ramifications of reprinting cards
too soon or too often, we try to make decisions that won't
negatively affect card collectability over time and that will
enhance the value of cards you purchase.
To maintain your confidence in the Magic game as a collectible,
we've created this Magic: The Gathering card reprint policy. It
explains why we reprint cards and lists which cards from past
Magic sets will never be reprinted.
Why We Reprint Cards
The Magic trading card game has tremendous appeal as both a game
and a collectible. For us, however, the Magic game is first and
foremost a supreme game of strategy and skill. We choose to
reprint cards because we believe (a) the cards we reprint make
for enjoyable game play, and (b) all Magic players deserve an
opportunity to play with these cards. Any card that isn't on the
reserved list may be reprinted.
Reserved Cards
The complete list of reserved cards appears at the end of this
document. Reserved cards will never be printed again in a
functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally
identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes,
abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness. No cards will be added
to the reserved list in the future. No cards from the
Mercadian Masques set and later sets will be reserved. In
consideration of past commitments, however, no cards will be
removed from this list. The exclusion of any particular card from
the reserved list doesn't indicate that there are any plans to
reprint that card.
Non-English Cards
The reprint policy applies to both English and non-English cards.
Special-Purpose Reprints
All policies described in this document apply only to non-premium,
tournament-legal Magic cards. Wizards of the Coast has and may
continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular
game play, such as oversized cards.
The writing is on the wall.
The RL will keep making Legacy harder and more expensive to get into. WoTC will keep doing things to make Modern easier and cheaper to get into. There's no doubt that Modern will be the eternal format of choice, it's just a question of how long.
While I think it is pretty silly to invent an entire new format just to circumvent the RL, apparently it's what they did.
Whatever the reasons behind it, I think that this is a pretty good picture of where we are and where we are headed. Legacy/Vintage have all but lost official support. Modern is being pushed to finish burying them. All to avoid the cards on the list.
The MODO cube drafting is the last thing I expected to see and it is a mixed signal. My understanding though is that you can't use those cards outside of the format preventing online Vintage from taking off.
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The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
the Chronicles debacle - a single wave of reprints never before (or after) seen.
Somewhat justifiable but still panic-like reaction from the (still very young) Magic community at the time. Collectors were quoted to be the main complainers.
WotC also panicked and announced the Reserved List (RL) without thinking twice about the real problem, which was the sheer amount of reprints too close to when the Legends expansion was originally printed, not the reprints themselves. But at the end of the day, the promise was made...
The big problem though was the structure of the RL. They put on it everything in base sets not reprinted in 4th edition and all ucommons and "rares" (U1s) from other sets up until then. Just like that. No regard for supply/demand whatsoever.
For newer sets, they adopted the arbitral 75% ratio of all cards printed ot the "rarest press sheets" for a particular set. For some notable examples of how it turned out, refer to [1].
There were the Special-Purpose Reprints and Non-English-Language Editions exceptions in the policy to work round the RL.
1999:
By this time, WotC realized that their policy was far too heavy-handed and did not really make sense in the time of the revised approach to reprints, so they changed the policy:
no cards to be added to RL after Urza's Destiny
Also, between Tempest and Urza's Destiny, only selected rares were put on the list rather than all rarities as before [1].
2002:
WotC openly admitted that RL is still too big and does not really serve the intended purpose. As a result, the policy was changed again. As a result:
Commons and uncommons from ABU were removed from the list.
The Non-English Cards loophole was closed
The new policy stated than no further cards will be removed from the list, which was supposedly broken between 2002 and 2010 as per [1]
2010:
After various foil promo reprints in FTV products and elsewhere, Mark Rosewater (MaRo) was quoted that "the experiment went badly" [2].
And then:
Wizards staff had a meeting with a select group of players collectors and storeowners to discuss what to do with the reserved list. [1]
If this quote is based on fact, we can easily assume these select few have had an inproportionate influence over the R&D which apparently tried to resist. We can also assume that these select few are owners of large stock of reserved cards and hence have direct incentive to insist on the existence of RL. From what we have learned from this discussion, these people are very few (less than 1%) but at that meeting they still pulled it off. But don't get me wrong, this is how it's been in all of history...
The worst part of it is of course the secrecy. In 2002, players and collectors alike could voice their concerns and opinions. This time around, we have secret meetings and shady deals shielded by NDAs, to everyone's but the select few's dismay
As a result:
RL froze
the loophole for Premium foil reprints was closed
MaRo voiced the interest of WotC to stick with the "spirit of the law" in relation to RL and not try anything like Reverbate or often discussed Snow duals. We'll see about that (and by that I mean cards such as Blue Sun's Zenith, Cumber Stone, Master of the Wild Hunt, or Voiceless Spirit, which obviously emulate reserved cards and make them even better...)
However:
Oversized reprints are still a possibility
Virtual cards in Magic Online are also excluded and, in fact, many of the popular reserved cards already got their new art in the Powered Cube
Curious thing that MODO Cube - to open the old wound like that. Many new players became aware of this RL mess because of that...
In conclusion, it's a self-inflicted wound. Shame and corporate dishonesty. The stain will remain...
IWe can also assume that these select few are owners of large stock of reserved cards and hence have direct incentive to insist on the existence of RL.
Starcitygames, which I believe is the largest MTG store on the planet, and so would have the most to lose from depreciating card values, has publically called for the abolishment of the RL.
WoTC still retains the right to ban cards whenever they like, which tanks collectoin values whenever that happens. And the vast majority of the cards on the RL are worthless. If the RL had anything to do with collector value, what's Soraya the Falconer, Fatal Lore, and Divine Retribution doing on the Reserved List?
Starcitygames, which I believe is the largest MTG store on the planet, and so would have the most to lose from depreciating card values, has publically called for the abolishment of the RL.
WoTC still retains the right to ban cards whenever they like, which tanks collectoin values whenever that happens. And the vast majority of the cards on the RL are worthless. If the RL had anything to do with collector value, what's Soraya the Falconer, Fatal Lore, and Divine Retribution doing on the Reserved List?
I think that those are on the reserve list for no reason. I think that they should take those worthless cards off of the reserve list, and no one would get angry about their Aysen Highway being taken off of it.
Starcitygames, which I believe is the largest MTG store on the planet, and so would have the most to lose from depreciating card values, has publically called for the abolishment of the RL.
Very true.
WoTC still retains the right to ban cards whenever they like
But the banlist and its policy has never been negotiable by ousiders and lobbyists so even they have to live with it.
They've simply been left on the list since they are of high enough rarity for inclusion (see the "original promise"). IMO, it is BS but they've decided to stick with it. Collateral damage if you will...
WotC were able to cut off a lot from that list over the years but obviously not quite enough. And since 2010, RL is taboo so no rational argument will help it seems.
Just for kicks, I ran the RL through deckstats.net, popped it into Excel, and ran some numbers
There are 571 cards on the Reserve List.
The average card value of the Reserve List is $18.36.
Well over half (61.82%) of the Reserve List is worth LESS than $1.
A little over 2/3rd's (77.76%) is worth LESS than $5
Only 66 cards out of 571 (11.56%) are worth more than the average RL card price.
Richard Garfield once said he thought that $20 as the top price for a Magic card sounded about right to him. 59 cards, just 10.33% of the cards on the Reserve List exceed this value.
Looking at those numbers, the Reserve List sure doesn't sound like a collector value driven decision to me.
Fun factoid: It would cost you $10,481.78 (plus shipping) to purchase 1 copy of every card on the RL.
If you remove the P9 from that list (remember, that's just NINE cards out of 571), the value of the entire RL drops to $5,196.66. Yes, HALF of the entire value of the RL is comprised of 9 cards. Over 50% of the Reserve Lists value is comprised of 1.58% of the cards on the list. If those 9 cards represent 50% of the collector value they are trying to protect, why include the other 562?
It just doesn't make sense for the RL to be based on "protecting collector value", when over 2/3rd of the entire list is worth less than a foot long sub at SubWay, and the majority of the value is tied up in just 9 cards.
A LGS owner with whom we were gaming sometimes, said that from business point of view, it sucks that cards are so expensive. While they can get more from individual cards, it vastly decreases the volume. Plus people usually compare prices more often when they are shopping for something expensive, it's easier to have better margins (as % of price) for cheap cards.
Also, price represents a barrier to entry. If no one played MTG, a Black Lotus or a Mox wouldn't be worth the cardboard it was printed on. Higher prices and less availability = a higher barrier to entry, which hurts collector values.
Most collectors know this, which is another reason I question the collector value argument for the RL. If the product stops being purchased, their collections become worthless. Look at Beanie Babies or Webkinz or baseball cards or any other collapsed collectible market.
And as your LGS friend stated, higher prices = smaller market. It's far easier to sell a million widgets at $1 than one widget at $1 million, because there are a lot more people who can afford to spend $1 than $1 million.
Actually they had representatives from SCG which is openly against the reserved list. Also, Stephen Menendian, who is a vintage player, was there and he is openly against the reserved list. I have no idea who else have been there discussing about it.
The plot thickens. We already know that most collectors are not the problem. It's not unheard of at all that a minority within a minority can force their way though. Or could that be that a team of Hasbro legal reps with a veto power was also visiting that meeting :tongue:?
Maybe they have different opinions inside the company? R&D hates the list, and it really looks like some higher-up shoved it down their throats, so they don't really care about it.
They most likely do. I've read through MaRo's blog and other stuff online and I could feel the frustration... Carrying around those secrets must be tough
Maybe they are afraid of some psycho who has built a shrine out of cards on reserved list and threatens Wotc with revenge if they abolish the list or something?
You joke, but it probably is something that ridiculous, like WoTC's CEO's kid got mad back in the day that his friends could get Chronicles reprints easily to beat his deck and complained to his dad so he made the RL to shut his kid up.
Okay, while we're on the subject at the very least, WotC owes it to the players who have supported this game to at least explain WHY the reserve list can't go away. All MaRo has said is that they can't talk about it.
What the **** does that even mean?
If they can't talk about something then it has to be some kind of gag order or legal problem. Otherwise there is no reason why they wouldn't be able to give us a satisfactory explanation.
My best guess is that they were sued after Chronicles, settled out of court, and then made the reserve list as some kind of promise to keep these people from suing them again and, in addition, agreed that they wouldn't discuss it so as to not throw these bastards who have essentially destroyed the best format ever, under the bus.
I'm not an idiot. What's going on with this reserve list and all the hush-hush has to be something alone those lines.
Unless somebody here knows something to the contrary and can point me to the documentation (assuming there is documentation) so I can at least understand what's going on.
If I sound angry, you're damn right I am.
Standard is a shell. Modern is okay. Vintage is dead.
Legacy is the only thing left that is truly rewarding to play.
Maro can't talk about it because it's a legal issue and he's not allowed to talk about it. Just like any legal issue at any company, if you want to know about it, you need to talk to the legal people. You don't ask IT about HR questions, you don't ask the factory foreman about accounting, and you don't ask the head of design about legal issues. And it really goes double for Maro, since as the unofficial face of the company what he says will be taken as gospel truth and repeated as "what Wizards says" and twisted around until it no longer even resembles the truth. Like almost everything he says.
You really wanna know why? Send a letter to the legal department, though I don't think there's going to be any more satisfying answer than what's already been put out there ("We promised not to reprint these cards, we need to stand by it").
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Retrodrome!
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My best guess is that they were sued after Chronicles, settled out of court, and then made the reserve list as some kind of promise to keep these people from suing them again and, in addition, agreed that they wouldn't discuss it so as to not throw these bastards who have essentially destroyed the best format ever, under the bus.
I highly, highly doubt they were sued, or there is any legal reason behind the RL. Never in the history of collectibles has there even been a contract or legally enforceable promise that the collectible would hold or increase it's value. WoTC owns the copyrights and trademarks for MTG cards, they can print any card as many times as they want.
The closest I have ever found around legal recourse of collectible availability was a case where a baseball card company was sued by collectors over a "promised distribution of card rarity" and the company selling reprint packs. IIRC the case was thrown out by summary judgement and never even got to court, cause it had no legal foothold to stand on.
If there was any legal standing to the RL, then we as customers could file a class action lawsuit against WoTC for not reprinting cards. I never signed any contract or agreed to any reprint policy when I purchase a pack of MTG cards. If they were enjoining me from receiving cards based on a legal contract they never consulted me on, I could sue them. I can't sure them, because WoTC reserves the right to print or not print any card it chooses.
Legal reasons fall into the "sounds right to me" camp, but there's no evidence to back it up, and a lot of evidence to dismiss it.
Unless somebody here knows something to the contrary and can point me to the documentation (assuming there is documentation) so I can at least understand what's going on.
No one here knows, it's all just supposition and guesswork. But if you follow the logic, you can weed out the unlikely scenarios:
- It's not driven by card values, since the majority of cards on the RL are worthless, and WoTC still routinely alters collection values through reprints, banning, and unbannings.
- It's not a legal thing, since there's no law that WoTC breaks by printing anything it wants.
- It's not a collector thing, since the biggest stores and collectors in the game have all called for the RL to be abolished.
Obviously there is some reason for it, but just looking at the situation with a critical eye and not making assumptions, we can likely rule out those scenarios for the RL's creation.
Sadly, that only really leave the more absurd explanations, which is a sad fact unto itself. That's my pet theory as to why they take a tight lipped stance: It's such a stupid reason they know the backlash over revealing it would be epic. "THAT'S the reason I have to pay $100 for a tundra? F' this"
Maro can't talk about it because it's a legal issue and he's not allowed to talk about it
There is no evidence to support it being a legal issue at all. Nowhere is card value, availability, or reprints stated in any way as to form a contract that WoTC could be in violation of.
There's also the fact that the Reserve List was created when WoTC was a stand alone company. They have since been acquired by Hasbro. It's rare for an acquiring company to agree to accept any legal holdings or contractual responsibilities in an agreement to purchase a company. No one from Hasbro ever agreed to anything when the RL was formed, they aren't going to accept terms of an agreement they weren't involved in crafting. You cannot force someone to accept a contract or legal agreement someone else made.
There is no evidence to support it being a legal issue at all. Nowhere is card value, availability, or reprints stated in any way as to form a contract that WoTC could be in violation of.
Just because there's no contract doesn't mean they can do it. I've mentioned this before in this thread - misrepresentation of your product can also be actionable. You say you're never going to print something again, and you print it, you lied about your product. If that affects the value of the product, it could get you sued.
Still, regardless of the type of issue it is, it's clearly not in Maro's (or anyone else who's been asked about it publicly that I've seen) department.
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Retrodrome!
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In some SCG article it was mentioned that legal reasons are not plausible for keeping the reserved list, I'd imagine they would know about it if such thing was possible. IIRC Stephen Menendian, who is against reserved list, is a lawyer, and would have probably mentioned about such possibility in articles.
The thing about lawyers is, they will interpret the law in such a way that it supports their viewpoint. It's what makes them the big bucks. Hasbro lawyers have their company's best interest in mind, and if they think the reserve list can't go away, then it can't.
Again, assuming it's a legal issue.
But I really don't see what else it could be. It's clearly holding the game back. Several prominent people who make the game have said they would like to get rid of it. Yes, it would alienate a small percentage of the market but make a much larger section of it happy, which is something that Wizards has been known to do and done many times in the past. The only thing that makes sense (and no, I don't think "Hasbro is trying to sabotage the game" makes sense) is that the people who support the reserve list outside the company have some sort of legal teeth that they can use to attack Hasbro, and because of that, the decision has been made to leave the list in place.
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Retrodrome!
Hoi, hoi, u embleer hrair
M'saion ulé hraka vair.
The only thing that makes sense (and no, I don't think "Hasbro is trying to sabotage the game" makes sense) is that the people who support the reserve list outside the company have some sort of legal teeth that they can use to attack Hasbro, and because of that, the decision has been made to leave the list in place.
This is exactly what I was thinking too. It's sad to think about it, but there is almost certainly a small group of people who are extremely pro-Reserved List that have threatened serious legal action against Wizards if they go back on the Reserved List. Those people are basically holding Wizards hostage on this issue.
This is exactly what I was thinking too. It's sad to think about it, but there is almost certainly a small group of people who are extremely pro-Reserved List that have threatened serious legal action against Wizards if they go back on the Reserved List. Those people are basically holding Wizards hostage on this issue.
I'm just curious what they could do legally, granted I'm no expert on law of any kind.
- It's not a collector thing, since the biggest stores and collectors in the game have all called for the RL to be abolished.
Maro has talked about a group of collectors who take the list seriously but who are publicly silent about it. So I would put this back on the table as a possibility.
There's also the fact that the Reserve List was created when WoTC was a stand alone company. They have since been acquired by Hasbro. It's rare for an acquiring company to agree to accept any legal holdings or contractual responsibilities in an agreement to purchase a company. No one from Hasbro ever agreed to anything when the RL was formed, they aren't going to accept terms of an agreement they weren't involved in crafting. You cannot force someone to accept a contract or legal agreement someone else made.
The thing about this is that they were acquired by Hasbro in 1999. They kept the Reserve list at that time but were still open and flexible about it. They pulled cards off in 2002. It was after that when they got all serious and tight-lipped about it. So whatever happened happened under Hasbro's watch.
Private Mod Note
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The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Yeah, but it doesn't make sense that collectors would have been able to sue Hasbro over a promise they didn't make, even if they didn't break it earlier.
You are correct in that Hasbro didn't have to honor it when they absorbed WOTC. However they did make the promise for themselves when they reaffirmed it in 2002.
That being said, I'm not convinced that threat of legal action is the source of the issue.
Private Mod Note
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The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Yes, they did reaffirm it in 2002. However, that is just a promise, and they can't be seen as lying about their product or neglecting a warranty as they didn't sell the sets with cards on reserved list. And mere promises are not legally binding.
All I was saying was that they did in fact make the promise, which you previously stated that they didn't.
And contracts are defined, in part, as promises. It is true that not all promises are contracts. However if the collectors have relied on the promise to their detriment on the assurances of Hasbro, then it is enforceable and they can be sued over it. All that would have to be shown is that the collectors have lost money by relying on the promise that Hasbro broke.
Private Mod Note
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The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Maro has talked about a group of collectors who take the list seriously but who are publicly silent about it. So I would put this back on the table as a possibility.
The thing about this is that they were acquired by Hasbro in 1999. They kept the Reserve list at that time but were still open and flexible about it. They pulled cards off in 2002. It was after that when they got all serious and tight-lipped about it. So whatever happened happened under Hasbro's watch.
I will never understand secrecy of this manner. Why is there such a tight lip about why they stopped removing cards? What is so terrible that they can't squash rumors about why they won't abolish the Reserved List? It seems to me that if the public knows about it, we can actually tackle the problems.
Let me ask this. Forget about the reasons for the RL for now.
What happens if WotC burns it?
Let's look at this logically from a legal (if possible) and public relations viewpoint.
Before I begin, I am now in favor of burning the RL.
Possible outcomes.
1. The promise is interpreted as a legal contract. Maybe the lawyers know something we don't. If that's the case, then breaking it could get them sued. Doesn't mean they'd lose the lawsuit but it could be costly enough for them not to want to go down that path. Final Outcome: Lawsuit
2. There was a group of people who threatened WotC with something worse than a lawsuit. Maybe they threatened to do a negative PR campaign and maybe they have the kind of money behind them that such a campaign would be ugly enough that it would hurt WotC's business. Final Outcome: Bad press causing loss of business.
3. A group of big retailers with old stock threatened to take their business away from WotC and drop their product. Final Outcome: Major loss of business from loss of retailers.
4. A group threatened WotC with bodily harm to its members. Hey, there are a lot of kooks in the world. We don't know. They could have been threatened especially if this group felt that its retirement income was in jeopardy. Final Outcome: Possible physical harm to WotC employees.
5. Wotc realizes or thinks that by burning the RL, they'll sell less of their flagship products because more people will turn to Legacy and even Vintage if they reprinted the P9. I know this sounds absurd and I can't imagine WotC truly believing that burning the RL will result in less sales alone (not taking into consideration options 1-4 above) but you never know. Maybe they truly believe constructed and limited will see less play if old cards are available and affordable. Final Outcome: Decrease in their flagship product sales.
6. Or this is simply a matter of good will. They made a promise and don't want to be seen as the lying company. So they're keeping their promise. If they reprint, they're looked at badly. Final Outcome: Poor PR with the players in general and loss of trust.
Now, what that loss of trust will ultimately do is anybody's guess.
See, the truth is, even if there were no threatened lawsuits, even if there were no threats of campaigns against the company, even if there were no threats by the retailers to pull their business, even if there were no threats of bodily harm, and even if WotC doesn't believe there will be a loss of sales from any of the 4 items above, maybe they simply don't have a firm enough grasp on the player base to know what THEY would do if the RL was burned.
1. What percent would be happy and go out and buy all the Legacy staples they could?
2. What percent would become angry and sell all their cards before the expected "collapse" and stop playing?
3. What percent would not care either way because they don't care about old cards OR the value of their collection and just keep doing what they're doing?
If WotC doesn't have a firm enough grasp on the pulse of the community, then burning the RL COULD cause them more harm than good depending on the percent of each group.
Imagine if group 2 actually made up 75% of the player base, or even 50%. It could be catastrophic to the company.
Heck, I think somebody mentioned that a 10% drop in sales could be catastrophic.
This final reason is the only logical one that I could see for WotC keeping the RL alive for so long. They simply don't want to take the chance that the fallout could be catastrophic.
I mean seriously, would YOU bet your last dollar on any of the scenarios above as absolutely being the one that would take place, good or bad?
I know I wouldn't.
And I think that's ultimately why we won't ever see the RL done away with.
You may be correct but I don't think that it is irrelevant. I don't know much about the law though. I took two years of legal classes in college and walked out with an appreciation of how complicated and varied the law can be.
I stand by what I said earlier. My understanding of contract law is that if the claimant can show loss from trusting a promise that was broken then they can sue. This is from Cornell:
Certain promises that are not considered contracts may, in limited circumstances, be enforced if one party has relied to his detriment on the assurances of the other party.
Source: http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract
I don't provide this as proof that I am correct, just as a counterpoint. It is a difficult subject and I am not a lawyer. I don't think that any link that either of us could provide would definitively prove the matter. If any lawyers who specialize in contract law are listening in, I would love to hear their input.
I will never understand secrecy of this manner. Why is there such a tight lip about why they stopped removing cards? What is so terrible that they can't squash rumors about why they won't abolish the Reserved List? It seems to me that if the public knows about it, we can actually tackle the problems.
I think that this is what is so frustrating. All that we have to go on are vague allusions and the history of the matter. What is clear is that our collective nerd-rage and near-constant pestering are insufficient motivators for openness. It isn't helped by the fact that they haven't felt any impact worth changing their minds over. Our wild conjectures go unanswered and they are raking in cash hand-over-fist. No matter how vocal we are, we are the minority and business is good. We don't even know if they won't talk for a legal reason, because it would be embarrassing, or just because they don't want to. In any case, rather than answering, they are waiting for the question askers to get tired and give up.
Let me ask this. Forget about the reasons for the RL for now.
What happens if WotC burns it?
Let's look at this logically from a legal (if possible) and public relations viewpoint.
Before I begin, I am now in favor of burning the RL.
*snip*
Great post LBS. Even if we disagree on what the outcomes would be, I think that this may be exactly the line of thinking by Hasbro that leaves us where we are.
I still want to know who these silent collectors are who are in favor of the list. I would love some of their input on the subject and think it could be enlightening.
I guess it's a thing in US. Plus all kinds of frivolous lawsuits seem to get more traction there.
We probably do but not as many as you might think. I think the problem isn't that our legal system is flawed so much as that our mass media is flawed and they know that focusing on the corner-cases and misrepresenting things will garner higher ratings. That's a whole other subject though.
EDIT: Btw, if they would announce abolishing the list well in advance, could they still get sued? Let's assume that prices of duals behave like price of Tarmogoyf after announcing Modern Masters.
I think that the problem would be that any effect on the prices would be immediate upon the announcement rather than upon the printing. However, the price of Tarmogoyf hasn't done anything yet so I may be wrong on this as well.
Majority of magic players play only casual and Standard, so it's fairly certain that 75% of players would not ragequit. In fact, I'd be surprised if even 5% of magic players play Legacy. Still it's possible that they have considered that financial risks outweight the benefits, and that's probably the most likely reason.
I lean more in this direction, but you introduce the other side of the problem. Either the Legacy crowd is large enough that they fear a backlash, or they are so small that they can be safely ignored. They are either marginal or they aren't, there isn't a lot of middle-ground.
Any dip in sales would be cause for alarm, especially with how well they have been doing. That is what caused the reserve list to come about in the first place.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
It is all about money. If Wizards believed that their long-term profits would increase by abolishing the reserve list then it would be gone the next day.
Anyone who plays multiple formats knows that the larger the card base, the better the format (ok, a bit of over-generalization maybe). Anyways, a large portion of players who have the cards for Legacy think that it is better than Standard (darn, did it again).
I believe that Wizards fears that Legacy and Vintage becoming more popular would take away from the Standard base. When a new set comes out, I wait until things cool a bit and then I buy the cards that are good in Eternal formats (Modern is not an eternal format, IMO). Wizards doesn't make much money from me. I bought up my Legacy and Vintage staples and now spend a couple hundred per year to buy new eternal singles. Many eternal players buy less than this as they are not interested in maintaining a complete Eternal collection, only maintaining a couple Legacy decks. Standard players spend $200-$500+ every year to keep up with the format. Much of this is spent on packs or on tournaments that reward with packs purchased by the stores. Wizards makes money selling packs, they want to do whatever will allow them to do more of this.
TL; DR: We all know Legacy and Vintage are better than Standard and Modern but if they were more accessible then Wizards would lose money on its cash-cow Standard. Therefore, unfortunately, the reserve list will remain.
The powered cube is a one shot phantom event adding no cards to the card pool of MODO.
Modern IS the only enternal format WoTC cares about. Dedicating an entire release soley to making the format more accessible is unheard of. Printing a set with shockland reprints to make them even easier to get. Making Modern FNM sanctionable in Jan.
There's a reason I've been selling my Legacy staples and acquiring Modern ones. The writing is on the wall.
Statistically, Vintage tournaments are a rounding error. They just are. Legacy would be in a similar boat if SCG didn't adopt it.
The RL will keep making Legacy harder and more expensive to get into. WoTC will keep doing things to make Modern easier and cheaper to get into. There's no doubt that Modern will be the eternal format of choice, it's just a question of how long.
While I think it is pretty silly to invent an entire new format just to circumvent the RL, apparently it's what they did.
Here's the text of the 1999 reprint policy update which outlines the Urza block and no longer adding cards.
Magic: The Gathering®
Card Reprint Policy
9/28/99
Primary to the value of purchasing Magic® cards is the concept that each card will maintain a reasonable value over time. Because we're sensitive to this issue and to the ramifications of reprinting cards too soon or too often, we try to make decisions that won't negatively affect card collectability over time and that will enhance the value of cards you purchase.
To maintain your confidence in the Magic game as a collectible, we've created this Magic: The Gathering card reprint policy, which we will update periodically. It explains why we reprint cards and how many cards from which expansions you can expect to see reprinted in future Magic products.
Why We Reprint Cards
The Magic TCG has tremendous appeal as both a game and a collectible. For us, however, the Magic game is first and foremost a supreme game of strategy and skill. We choose to reprint cards from limited expansions in products such as the Anthologies™ box set and the Classic™ set because we believe (a) the cards we reprint make for enjoyable game play, and (b) all Magic players deserve an opportunity to play with these cards.
Border-Color Policy
Wizards of the Coast® understands that the Magic TCG appeals to many of you as a collectible as well as a game. It's always been our policy, therefore, to print a new card (one with a new name) with a black border before or at the same time as we print it with a white border. This rule also holds for existing cards reprinted with new illustrations. There are three notable exceptions to this policy:
The 1999 Starter card set includes a few new white-bordered cards created specifically for this starter-level product.
Portal Three Kingdoms™ products, which are intended for new players in Asia, contain all white-bordered cards.
The Fifth Edition™ set contains some white-bordered cards with new art. We felt a set with both black and white borders would be too confusing.
We feel that in these cases the cards weren't relevant to our largest base of players, so there was little harm in printing them for the first time with white borders.
The public opinion about card border color is clear: players greatly prefer black-bordered cards to white-bordered cards for aesthetic reasons. We believe, however, that our collectors and players want to maintain the collectability of older black-bordered cards. The following is a compromise we hope will address both concerns.
As of October 1, 1999, we reserve the right to reprint cards from the Mercadian Masques™ expansion and beyond in black borders with the original art. This new policy will give Magic players what they want-black borders more often-without undermining collectability. Whenever possible, we will attempt to distinguish reprinted cards from their original versions with a different expansion symbol. We take our past commitments seriously, so this new policy will not affect any card printed before the Mercadian Masques expansion. For example, we won't reprint an Ice Age™ uncommon card with the original art in a black border.
To support this new border-color policy, starter- and advanced-level products now have their own expansion symbols. The purpose of these symbols is to make it easy for players to distinguish an original card printed in an expert-level set from its reprint in a starter- or advanced-level set, thereby maintaining the original card's collectability.
Premium Cards
Premium cards have given the Magic TCG even greater appeal as a collectable card product. Premium cards will generally look the same as their regular counterparts, with the exceptions of black-bordered premium versions of white-bordered originals and modifications made for promotional premium cards. Minor differences in the premium card's text, such as the omission of reminder text, will sometimes be necessary.
Reserved Cards
In addition to the limited nature of our black-bordered products, much of a Magic card's collectability is determined by its availability for game play. Accordingly, we have created a list of "reserved" cards that we will never print again in a black or white border in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same rules text, mana cost, power, and toughness as another card. The exclusion of any particular card from the reserved-card list doesn't indicate that we have any plans to reprint that card. The current list of reserved cards includes:
All Limited Edition™ cards that don't appear in Fourth Edition™ or Ice Age
All uncommon and rare cards from Arabian Nights® and Antiquities® that don't appear in Revised Edition™, Fourth Edition, or Chronicles™
All rare cards from Legends®, The Dark®, Fallen Empires™, Ice Age, Homelands™, Alliances™, Mirage™, Visions™ and Weatherlight™ that haven't been reprinted with a white border
A complete list of the reserved cards can be found at the end of this document.
Reprinting Cards from the Urza Block
In accordance with the commitment made in our prior reprint policy, rare cards from Urza's Saga™, Urza's Legacy™, and Urza's Destiny™ that aren't reprinted in Classic Seventh Edition will be added to the reserved-card list. Additionally, we won't reprint more than 25% of the rare cards in these sets.
Non-English Cards
All policies described in this document apply both to English and non-English cards. The only exception arises when printing Magic for the first time in a new language; we may print some cards in that language with white borders (in a starter-level product, for example) without printing them with black borders first.
Wizards of the Coast won't print cards from the Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, or The Dark expansions with black or white borders in any additional languages, although cards from these expansions may be printed in non-English versions of Classic and Chronicles. Subsequent limited-edition expansions may be printed with black borders in additional languages. Wizards will periodically announce when any of these products are being removed from consideration for reprinting in additional languages.
Special-Purpose Reprints
All policies described in this document apply only to standard, non-premium, tournament-legal Magic cards. Wizards has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular game play, such as factory sets and oversized cards.
They did remove cards from it in 2002, the same month that they released another revised policy with the line "no cards will be removed from this list." So... that's a mixed signal.
Here's the text of the 2002 policy:
Official Reprint Policy
July 2002
Primary to the value of purchasing Magic cards is the concept that
each card will maintain a reasonable value over time. Because we're
sensitive to this issue and to the ramifications of reprinting cards
too soon or too often, we try to make decisions that won't
negatively affect card collectability over time and that will
enhance the value of cards you purchase.
To maintain your confidence in the Magic game as a collectible,
we've created this Magic: The Gathering card reprint policy. It
explains why we reprint cards and lists which cards from past
Magic sets will never be reprinted.
Why We Reprint Cards
The Magic trading card game has tremendous appeal as both a game
and a collectible. For us, however, the Magic game is first and
foremost a supreme game of strategy and skill. We choose to
reprint cards because we believe (a) the cards we reprint make
for enjoyable game play, and (b) all Magic players deserve an
opportunity to play with these cards. Any card that isn't on the
reserved list may be reprinted.
Reserved Cards
The complete list of reserved cards appears at the end of this
document. Reserved cards will never be printed again in a
functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally
identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes,
abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness. No cards will be added
to the reserved list in the future. No cards from the
Mercadian Masques set and later sets will be reserved. In
consideration of past commitments, however, no cards will be
removed from this list. The exclusion of any particular card from
the reserved list doesn't indicate that there are any plans to
reprint that card.
Non-English Cards
The reprint policy applies to both English and non-English cards.
Special-Purpose Reprints
All policies described in this document apply only to non-premium,
tournament-legal Magic cards. Wizards of the Coast has and may
continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular
game play, such as oversized cards.
Whatever the reasons behind it, I think that this is a pretty good picture of where we are and where we are headed. Legacy/Vintage have all but lost official support. Modern is being pushed to finish burying them. All to avoid the cards on the list.
The MODO cube drafting is the last thing I expected to see and it is a mixed signal. My understanding though is that you can't use those cards outside of the format preventing online Vintage from taking off.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
So, in summary:
1996:
The big problem though was the structure of the RL. They put on it everything in base sets not reprinted in 4th edition and all ucommons and "rares" (U1s) from other sets up until then. Just like that. No regard for supply/demand whatsoever.
For newer sets, they adopted the arbitral 75% ratio of all cards printed ot the "rarest press sheets" for a particular set. For some notable examples of how it turned out, refer to [1].
There were the Special-Purpose Reprints and Non-English-Language Editions exceptions in the policy to work round the RL.
1999:
By this time, WotC realized that their policy was far too heavy-handed and did not really make sense in the time of the revised approach to reprints, so they changed the policy:
Also, between Tempest and Urza's Destiny, only selected rares were put on the list rather than all rarities as before [1].
2002:
WotC openly admitted that RL is still too big and does not really serve the intended purpose. As a result, the policy was changed again. As a result:
2010:
After various foil promo reprints in FTV products and elsewhere, Mark Rosewater (MaRo) was quoted that "the experiment went badly" [2].
And then:
If this quote is based on fact, we can easily assume these select few have had an inproportionate influence over the R&D which apparently tried to resist. We can also assume that these select few are owners of large stock of reserved cards and hence have direct incentive to insist on the existence of RL. From what we have learned from this discussion, these people are very few (less than 1%) but at that meeting they still pulled it off. But don't get me wrong, this is how it's been in all of history...
The worst part of it is of course the secrecy. In 2002, players and collectors alike could voice their concerns and opinions. This time around, we have secret meetings and shady deals shielded by NDAs, to everyone's but the select few's dismay
As a result:
However:
Curious thing that MODO Cube - to open the old wound like that. Many new players became aware of this RL mess because of that...
In conclusion, it's a self-inflicted wound. Shame and corporate dishonesty. The stain will remain...
[1]: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/finance/24792-I-Hate-The-Reserved-List.html
[2]: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/8784118216/why-the-reserved-list-is-off-limits-for-ftv-legends-but
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Starcitygames, which I believe is the largest MTG store on the planet, and so would have the most to lose from depreciating card values, has publically called for the abolishment of the RL.
WoTC still retains the right to ban cards whenever they like, which tanks collectoin values whenever that happens. And the vast majority of the cards on the RL are worthless. If the RL had anything to do with collector value, what's Soraya the Falconer, Fatal Lore, and Divine Retribution doing on the Reserved List?
I think that those are on the reserve list for no reason. I think that they should take those worthless cards off of the reserve list, and no one would get angry about their Aysen Highway being taken off of it.
Very true.
But the banlist and its policy has never been negotiable by ousiders and lobbyists so even they have to live with it.
They've simply been left on the list since they are of high enough rarity for inclusion (see the "original promise"). IMO, it is BS but they've decided to stick with it. Collateral damage if you will...
WotC were able to cut off a lot from that list over the years but obviously not quite enough. And since 2010, RL is taboo so no rational argument will help it seems.
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There are 571 cards on the Reserve List.
The average card value of the Reserve List is $18.36.
Well over half (61.82%) of the Reserve List is worth LESS than $1.
A little over 2/3rd's (77.76%) is worth LESS than $5
Only 66 cards out of 571 (11.56%) are worth more than the average RL card price.
Richard Garfield once said he thought that $20 as the top price for a Magic card sounded about right to him. 59 cards, just 10.33% of the cards on the Reserve List exceed this value.
Looking at those numbers, the Reserve List sure doesn't sound like a collector value driven decision to me.
Fun factoid: It would cost you $10,481.78 (plus shipping) to purchase 1 copy of every card on the RL.
If you remove the P9 from that list (remember, that's just NINE cards out of 571), the value of the entire RL drops to $5,196.66. Yes, HALF of the entire value of the RL is comprised of 9 cards. Over 50% of the Reserve Lists value is comprised of 1.58% of the cards on the list. If those 9 cards represent 50% of the collector value they are trying to protect, why include the other 562?
It just doesn't make sense for the RL to be based on "protecting collector value", when over 2/3rd of the entire list is worth less than a foot long sub at SubWay, and the majority of the value is tied up in just 9 cards.
Also, price represents a barrier to entry. If no one played MTG, a Black Lotus or a Mox wouldn't be worth the cardboard it was printed on. Higher prices and less availability = a higher barrier to entry, which hurts collector values.
Most collectors know this, which is another reason I question the collector value argument for the RL. If the product stops being purchased, their collections become worthless. Look at Beanie Babies or Webkinz or baseball cards or any other collapsed collectible market.
And as your LGS friend stated, higher prices = smaller market. It's far easier to sell a million widgets at $1 than one widget at $1 million, because there are a lot more people who can afford to spend $1 than $1 million.
The plot thickens. We already know that most collectors are not the problem. It's not unheard of at all that a minority within a minority can force their way though. Or could that be that a team of Hasbro legal reps with a veto power was also visiting that meeting :tongue:?
They most likely do. I've read through MaRo's blog and other stuff online and I could feel the frustration... Carrying around those secrets must be tough
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You joke, but it probably is something that ridiculous, like WoTC's CEO's kid got mad back in the day that his friends could get Chronicles reprints easily to beat his deck and complained to his dad so he made the RL to shut his kid up.
What the **** does that even mean?
If they can't talk about something then it has to be some kind of gag order or legal problem. Otherwise there is no reason why they wouldn't be able to give us a satisfactory explanation.
My best guess is that they were sued after Chronicles, settled out of court, and then made the reserve list as some kind of promise to keep these people from suing them again and, in addition, agreed that they wouldn't discuss it so as to not throw these bastards who have essentially destroyed the best format ever, under the bus.
I'm not an idiot. What's going on with this reserve list and all the hush-hush has to be something alone those lines.
Unless somebody here knows something to the contrary and can point me to the documentation (assuming there is documentation) so I can at least understand what's going on.
If I sound angry, you're damn right I am.
Standard is a shell. Modern is okay. Vintage is dead.
Legacy is the only thing left that is truly rewarding to play.
At the very least, we deserve answers.
You really wanna know why? Send a letter to the legal department, though I don't think there's going to be any more satisfying answer than what's already been put out there ("We promised not to reprint these cards, we need to stand by it").
Hoi, hoi, u embleer hrair
M'saion ulé hraka vair.
I highly, highly doubt they were sued, or there is any legal reason behind the RL. Never in the history of collectibles has there even been a contract or legally enforceable promise that the collectible would hold or increase it's value. WoTC owns the copyrights and trademarks for MTG cards, they can print any card as many times as they want.
The closest I have ever found around legal recourse of collectible availability was a case where a baseball card company was sued by collectors over a "promised distribution of card rarity" and the company selling reprint packs. IIRC the case was thrown out by summary judgement and never even got to court, cause it had no legal foothold to stand on.
If there was any legal standing to the RL, then we as customers could file a class action lawsuit against WoTC for not reprinting cards. I never signed any contract or agreed to any reprint policy when I purchase a pack of MTG cards. If they were enjoining me from receiving cards based on a legal contract they never consulted me on, I could sue them. I can't sure them, because WoTC reserves the right to print or not print any card it chooses.
Legal reasons fall into the "sounds right to me" camp, but there's no evidence to back it up, and a lot of evidence to dismiss it.
No one here knows, it's all just supposition and guesswork. But if you follow the logic, you can weed out the unlikely scenarios:
- It's not driven by card values, since the majority of cards on the RL are worthless, and WoTC still routinely alters collection values through reprints, banning, and unbannings.
- It's not a legal thing, since there's no law that WoTC breaks by printing anything it wants.
- It's not a collector thing, since the biggest stores and collectors in the game have all called for the RL to be abolished.
Obviously there is some reason for it, but just looking at the situation with a critical eye and not making assumptions, we can likely rule out those scenarios for the RL's creation.
Sadly, that only really leave the more absurd explanations, which is a sad fact unto itself. That's my pet theory as to why they take a tight lipped stance: It's such a stupid reason they know the backlash over revealing it would be epic. "THAT'S the reason I have to pay $100 for a tundra? F' this"
There is no evidence to support it being a legal issue at all. Nowhere is card value, availability, or reprints stated in any way as to form a contract that WoTC could be in violation of.
There's also the fact that the Reserve List was created when WoTC was a stand alone company. They have since been acquired by Hasbro. It's rare for an acquiring company to agree to accept any legal holdings or contractual responsibilities in an agreement to purchase a company. No one from Hasbro ever agreed to anything when the RL was formed, they aren't going to accept terms of an agreement they weren't involved in crafting. You cannot force someone to accept a contract or legal agreement someone else made.
Just because there's no contract doesn't mean they can do it. I've mentioned this before in this thread - misrepresentation of your product can also be actionable. You say you're never going to print something again, and you print it, you lied about your product. If that affects the value of the product, it could get you sued.
Still, regardless of the type of issue it is, it's clearly not in Maro's (or anyone else who's been asked about it publicly that I've seen) department.
Hoi, hoi, u embleer hrair
M'saion ulé hraka vair.
The thing about lawyers is, they will interpret the law in such a way that it supports their viewpoint. It's what makes them the big bucks. Hasbro lawyers have their company's best interest in mind, and if they think the reserve list can't go away, then it can't.
Again, assuming it's a legal issue.
But I really don't see what else it could be. It's clearly holding the game back. Several prominent people who make the game have said they would like to get rid of it. Yes, it would alienate a small percentage of the market but make a much larger section of it happy, which is something that Wizards has been known to do and done many times in the past. The only thing that makes sense (and no, I don't think "Hasbro is trying to sabotage the game" makes sense) is that the people who support the reserve list outside the company have some sort of legal teeth that they can use to attack Hasbro, and because of that, the decision has been made to leave the list in place.
Hoi, hoi, u embleer hrair
M'saion ulé hraka vair.
This is exactly what I was thinking too. It's sad to think about it, but there is almost certainly a small group of people who are extremely pro-Reserved List that have threatened serious legal action against Wizards if they go back on the Reserved List. Those people are basically holding Wizards hostage on this issue.
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StaffI'm just curious what they could do legally, granted I'm no expert on law of any kind.
Maro has talked about a group of collectors who take the list seriously but who are publicly silent about it. So I would put this back on the table as a possibility.
The thing about this is that they were acquired by Hasbro in 1999. They kept the Reserve list at that time but were still open and flexible about it. They pulled cards off in 2002. It was after that when they got all serious and tight-lipped about it. So whatever happened happened under Hasbro's watch.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
You are correct in that Hasbro didn't have to honor it when they absorbed WOTC. However they did make the promise for themselves when they reaffirmed it in 2002.
That being said, I'm not convinced that threat of legal action is the source of the issue.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
All I was saying was that they did in fact make the promise, which you previously stated that they didn't.
And contracts are defined, in part, as promises. It is true that not all promises are contracts. However if the collectors have relied on the promise to their detriment on the assurances of Hasbro, then it is enforceable and they can be sued over it. All that would have to be shown is that the collectors have lost money by relying on the promise that Hasbro broke.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
I will never understand secrecy of this manner. Why is there such a tight lip about why they stopped removing cards? What is so terrible that they can't squash rumors about why they won't abolish the Reserved List? It seems to me that if the public knows about it, we can actually tackle the problems.
What happens if WotC burns it?
Let's look at this logically from a legal (if possible) and public relations viewpoint.
Before I begin, I am now in favor of burning the RL.
Possible outcomes.
1. The promise is interpreted as a legal contract. Maybe the lawyers know something we don't. If that's the case, then breaking it could get them sued. Doesn't mean they'd lose the lawsuit but it could be costly enough for them not to want to go down that path. Final Outcome: Lawsuit
2. There was a group of people who threatened WotC with something worse than a lawsuit. Maybe they threatened to do a negative PR campaign and maybe they have the kind of money behind them that such a campaign would be ugly enough that it would hurt WotC's business. Final Outcome: Bad press causing loss of business.
3. A group of big retailers with old stock threatened to take their business away from WotC and drop their product. Final Outcome: Major loss of business from loss of retailers.
4. A group threatened WotC with bodily harm to its members. Hey, there are a lot of kooks in the world. We don't know. They could have been threatened especially if this group felt that its retirement income was in jeopardy. Final Outcome: Possible physical harm to WotC employees.
5. Wotc realizes or thinks that by burning the RL, they'll sell less of their flagship products because more people will turn to Legacy and even Vintage if they reprinted the P9. I know this sounds absurd and I can't imagine WotC truly believing that burning the RL will result in less sales alone (not taking into consideration options 1-4 above) but you never know. Maybe they truly believe constructed and limited will see less play if old cards are available and affordable. Final Outcome: Decrease in their flagship product sales.
6. Or this is simply a matter of good will. They made a promise and don't want to be seen as the lying company. So they're keeping their promise. If they reprint, they're looked at badly. Final Outcome: Poor PR with the players in general and loss of trust.
Now, what that loss of trust will ultimately do is anybody's guess.
See, the truth is, even if there were no threatened lawsuits, even if there were no threats of campaigns against the company, even if there were no threats by the retailers to pull their business, even if there were no threats of bodily harm, and even if WotC doesn't believe there will be a loss of sales from any of the 4 items above, maybe they simply don't have a firm enough grasp on the player base to know what THEY would do if the RL was burned.
1. What percent would be happy and go out and buy all the Legacy staples they could?
2. What percent would become angry and sell all their cards before the expected "collapse" and stop playing?
3. What percent would not care either way because they don't care about old cards OR the value of their collection and just keep doing what they're doing?
If WotC doesn't have a firm enough grasp on the pulse of the community, then burning the RL COULD cause them more harm than good depending on the percent of each group.
Imagine if group 2 actually made up 75% of the player base, or even 50%. It could be catastrophic to the company.
Heck, I think somebody mentioned that a 10% drop in sales could be catastrophic.
This final reason is the only logical one that I could see for WotC keeping the RL alive for so long. They simply don't want to take the chance that the fallout could be catastrophic.
I mean seriously, would YOU bet your last dollar on any of the scenarios above as absolutely being the one that would take place, good or bad?
I know I wouldn't.
And I think that's ultimately why we won't ever see the RL done away with.
At least not in my lifetime.
You may be correct but I don't think that it is irrelevant. I don't know much about the law though. I took two years of legal classes in college and walked out with an appreciation of how complicated and varied the law can be.
I stand by what I said earlier. My understanding of contract law is that if the claimant can show loss from trusting a promise that was broken then they can sue. This is from Cornell:
Source: http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract
I don't provide this as proof that I am correct, just as a counterpoint. It is a difficult subject and I am not a lawyer. I don't think that any link that either of us could provide would definitively prove the matter. If any lawyers who specialize in contract law are listening in, I would love to hear their input.
I think that this is what is so frustrating. All that we have to go on are vague allusions and the history of the matter. What is clear is that our collective nerd-rage and near-constant pestering are insufficient motivators for openness. It isn't helped by the fact that they haven't felt any impact worth changing their minds over. Our wild conjectures go unanswered and they are raking in cash hand-over-fist. No matter how vocal we are, we are the minority and business is good. We don't even know if they won't talk for a legal reason, because it would be embarrassing, or just because they don't want to. In any case, rather than answering, they are waiting for the question askers to get tired and give up.
---edit---
*snip*
Great post LBS. Even if we disagree on what the outcomes would be, I think that this may be exactly the line of thinking by Hasbro that leaves us where we are.
I still want to know who these silent collectors are who are in favor of the list. I would love some of their input on the subject and think it could be enlightening.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
We probably do but not as many as you might think. I think the problem isn't that our legal system is flawed so much as that our mass media is flawed and they know that focusing on the corner-cases and misrepresenting things will garner higher ratings. That's a whole other subject though.
I think that the problem would be that any effect on the prices would be immediate upon the announcement rather than upon the printing. However, the price of Tarmogoyf hasn't done anything yet so I may be wrong on this as well.
I lean more in this direction, but you introduce the other side of the problem. Either the Legacy crowd is large enough that they fear a backlash, or they are so small that they can be safely ignored. They are either marginal or they aren't, there isn't a lot of middle-ground.
Any dip in sales would be cause for alarm, especially with how well they have been doing. That is what caused the reserve list to come about in the first place.
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Anyone who plays multiple formats knows that the larger the card base, the better the format (ok, a bit of over-generalization maybe). Anyways, a large portion of players who have the cards for Legacy think that it is better than Standard (darn, did it again).
I believe that Wizards fears that Legacy and Vintage becoming more popular would take away from the Standard base. When a new set comes out, I wait until things cool a bit and then I buy the cards that are good in Eternal formats (Modern is not an eternal format, IMO). Wizards doesn't make much money from me. I bought up my Legacy and Vintage staples and now spend a couple hundred per year to buy new eternal singles. Many eternal players buy less than this as they are not interested in maintaining a complete Eternal collection, only maintaining a couple Legacy decks. Standard players spend $200-$500+ every year to keep up with the format. Much of this is spent on packs or on tournaments that reward with packs purchased by the stores. Wizards makes money selling packs, they want to do whatever will allow them to do more of this.
TL; DR: We all know Legacy and Vintage are better than Standard and Modern but if they were more accessible then Wizards would lose money on its cash-cow Standard. Therefore, unfortunately, the reserve list will remain.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener