Gatecrash Mechanics Discussion

[Everlastingwords]

Originally Posted by bji

But drawing cards, regenerating, and redistributing counters to other cards are not combat tricks. Combat tricks are instants that change combat math in a way that surprises the opponent. None of those cards you mentioned do that.

Perhaps what we'll see in lieu of combat tricks is flash creatures that can trigger Evolve during combat.

Common Bond would be an example of a +1/+1 counter combat trick which synergizes with the printed abilities on Simic cards. No drawing cards isn't an effect that is a built-in combat trick. Though it is an effect which makes +1/+1 counter based combat tricks furthermore effective. Creatures with flash are also beneficial.

[Raver]

Bloodrush mechanic seems pretty strong. The fact that the creatures can used as board presence or combat trick is pretty strong in limited

[fnord]

So, basically:

Level 1:

Boros: wants to be aggressive, attacking with 3 or more creatures.
Dimir: wants to connect with evasives
Gruul: wants to be attacking, with lots of combat tricks making it hard to block
Orzhov: wants to play the long game, never needing to attack
Simic: wants to curve out perfectly or win the long game with massive dudes.

Level 2:

Boros: Red Gruul cards complement its strategy, but White Orzhov cards don't.
Dimir: Black Orzhov cards help a bit because of the Cipher/Extort interaction. Blue Simic cards don't help much since Dimir won't be playing many creatures (especially big ones, since Dimir favors evasion over size).
Gruul: Red Boros cards complements its aggressiveness. Playing lots of creatures means Green Simic cards with Evolve work well.
Orzhov: White Boros cards don't complement its strategy. Black Dimir cards are a bit better, but aren't really a great fit.
Simic: Green Gruul creatures complement Evolve. Blue Dimir cards don't.

The winner here seems to be Gruul, with the other two guilds in its colors complementing its gain plan.

Level 3:

Esper: Cipher's copies are cast, which triggers Extort. There's potential here.
Naya: Two aggressive decks synergizing. Gruul's high creature count makes it easy to turn Battalion on, then use any extra creatures to protect it.
RBW: One guild want to be aggressive and the other doesn't.
RUG: Gruul is synergistic with evolve. Blue provides evasion, which turns Bloodrush into damage.
BUG: Antisynergy, since Simic wants lots of big creatures and Dimir wants a few evasive ones.

Looks like the best is Naya, followed by RUG than Esper.

[Phyrre56]

Originally Posted by Raver

Bloodrush mechanic seems pretty strong. The fact that the creatures can used as board presence or combat trick is pretty strong in limited

I agree. It's a huge advantage to stuff your deck with what are effectively Creature / Combat Trick split cards. It's also weird that the Gruul mechanic seems more reckless aggro than the Rakdos mechanic.

The sheer amount of tricks available to an attacking Gruul player mean that most Gruul creatures might as well say "Can't be blocked." At least unless the defending player has a trick up their sleeve. Bloodrush turns instant speed removal and bounce into blowout cards.

[Raver]

Originally Posted by Phyrre56

It's also weird that the Gruul mechanic seems more reckless aggro than the Rakdos mechanic.

Not at all. Unleash strategy is to simply beat the opponents down without regard for one's own life. Bloodrush is more calculated in choosing between continued board presence and one shot combat tricks.

[Crypt Rat]

Originally Posted by Phyrre56

Please don't confuse this thread by wildly speculating and making up cards. It's hard enough to judge a mechanic from 2 or 3 real cards.

I'm basing my evaluation on Chasm Drake. Though to be fair, Chasm Drake was a fine body even without a friend.


If Evolve dampens the use of combat trick, then so to will sorceries with Cipher. Interesting that Bloodrush is in a different guild.

[Tahn]

Originally Posted by Phyrre56

The sheer amount of tricks available to an attacking Gruul player mean that most Gruul creatures might as well say "Can't be blocked."

Why is that? You can still block and they have to use their combat trick. They may gain a bit of tempo, but so far the combat tricks in Gruul actually look worse than those in Selesnya. So far the Bloodrush cards we've seen (only three of course) all cost 3 to Bloodrush. I don't think that will be the case for all of them, but at least for those three, we're not talking about a huge tempo gain for the Gruul player. I don't mind losing my creature to a three-mana combat trick that has no lasting advantage. The Selesnya tricks are so good because they all do something good and different: Giant Growth reliably gains you tempo by costing 1 mana; Swift Justice is less reliable but when effective it also gains tempo + life; Chorus of Might gives you extra damage to the face; Common Bond and Rootborn Defenses can both affect more than one block and leave something behind, thus creating card advantage.

I think the strength of Gruul will be more based on the fact that their creatures will be large than on Bloodrush. It's not a bad ability to have, of course, but it becomes better once you already have huge monsters in play that they can't efficiently block. If they have efficient blocks for your guys, they can just trade 1 for 1 with Bloodrush cards. I also think people will be way too eager to Bloodrush. For example on turn 3, you could attack your two-drop into theirs and use Zhur-Taa Swine to win the combat. But why would you? You should probably want to keep the 5/4 because it's the sort of creature that is by itself hard to block.

[Phyrre56]

Originally Posted by Tahn

You can still block and they have to use their combat trick.

That's true. You've changed my thinking about it. For the most part they're still just getting 1-for-1 trades, and not the "Giant Growth tempo boost" kind.

I suppose the moral of the story is don't double block against Gruul! Then you're turning Bloodrush into a potential 2-for-1 ability. Double blocking always leaves you open to that risk, it's just that on average a Gruul deck will have many more combat tricks for attackers than we're used to.

[Crypt Rat]

Originally Posted by Tahn

But why would you? You should probably want to keep the 5/4 because it's the sort of creature that is by itself hard to block.

The way I see it, if they don't block early, they have to block everything late because you can just unload a couple of Bloodrush cards on a creature they didn't block for less expensive Lava Axes.

Dimir and Simic creatures seem like they will be too small to reliably trade with early Gruul threats anyway and Boros doesn't want to trade since it needs to have 3 creatures for Battalion.

[magicmerl]

Originally Posted by Crypt Rat

Dimir and Simic creatures seem like they will be too small to reliably trade with early Gruul threats anyway and Boros doesn't want to trade since it needs to have 3 creatures for Battalion.

Do you know what the simic mechanic is?

I respectfully suggest that they might be big enough.

[Hardened]

Do we know what the pack order will be? Triple Gatecrash?

[Crypt Rat]

Originally Posted by magicmerl

Do you know what the simic mechanic is?

I respectfully suggest that they might be big enough.

Not as soon as they're played, no. And certainly not in top deck mode. I'm suggesting that the Gruul plan will be to get early beats in while Simic creatures haven't caught up to the value of their cost. In the late game, Bloodrush will be used as a finisher when possible, either through evasion (trample / intimidate) or through having more creatures than they have blockers. When it can't be used as a finisher or is too risky to do so, then the creature will be played out normally.

I can always be wrong, though.

The 0/1 is certainly about as all-in as a common can get for the Evolve mechanic. And not all the creatures in the decks will have evolve, thereby having normal P/T as soon as they're cast...

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by Hardened

Do we know what the pack order will be? Triple Gatecrash?

It will be triple Gatecrash until Dragon Maze comes out. Then it will be DGM/GTC/RTR.

[TheTennesseeFireman]

I feel like from what we've seen mechanically, the guilds will have much more strategical identity in Gatecrash than they did in RtR. None of those mechanics had a pervasive effect on the game. Here, you'll be constantly leaving a blocker for dimir, keeping Boros below 3 creatures, calculating what combat tricks gruul could have, messing with simic's curve, and killing orzhov ASAP. The latest simic spoiler suggests there will be synergy between most all of the guilds too. Really looking forward to it.

[Hardened]

WE haven't seen much, but Hands of Binding looks like our token way-overpowered common. I'm seeing Simic-splash-Dimir as the go to strategy, as Cloudfin Raptor is going to be a nutso common as well.