[Variant] Esper Control

[redtwister]

So this is where my build is at right now, since I can get back to testing this week.

Deck
Land 27 4 Nephalia Drownyard 4 Drowned Catacomb 4 Isolated Chapel 4 Glacial Fortress 4 Hallowed Fountain 1 Evolving Wilds 3 Island 1 Plains 2 Swamp Instant 15 4 Azorius Charm 4 Sphinx's Revelation 3 Ultimate Price 4 Think Twice	Sorcery 9 3 Supreme Verdict 4 Terminus 1 Entreat the Angels 1 Sever the Bloodline Enchantment 3 2 Detention Sphere 1 Oblivion Ring Planeswalker 6 4 Jace, Architect of Thought 2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage	Sideboard 3 Rest in Peace 2 Jace, Memory Adept 2 Duress 2 Appetite for Brains 1 Oblivion Ring 1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope 1 Drogskol Reaver 1 Pithing Needle

EDIT:
Tinkering with the deck sideboard.

Can't decide if I want 2 Feeling of Dread or 2 Curse of Death's Hold.

[kamWise]

Originally Posted by redtwister

So this is where my build is at right now, since I can get back to testing this week.

I would cut a jace, terminus, and all of the azorius charms for some countermagic.

[Titus0]

Originally Posted by kamWise

I would cut a jace, terminus, and all of the azorius charms for some countermagic.

Honestly, I disagree with this; format is pretty aggro/creature-heavy, so I don't think cutting removal for countermagic is good. On top of that, I feel like esper builds don't really need that much countermagic in the first place.

Maybe a miserly 2-of dissipates mainboard and an assortment of counterspells sideboard would do, but I don't think it's right to cut all of the Azorius Charms.

[Aazadan]

Originally Posted by Rayman420

If it is big rakdos appetite for brains can take a slaughter games, or hellkite, or aristocrat, or Olivia, or zealous conscripts, ect.

I also find they usually take my walkers, or whatever you beat them with g1. If you get some abuse in with diverse cards, it can make it a harder choice for them too.

The deck in question is 4c reanimator running a set of Slaughter Games sideboard (and several other anti control cards too). Appetite for Brains might be the card I want here since it exiles quite a few threats.

Originally Posted by kamWise

I would cut a jace, terminus, and all of the azorius charms for some countermagic.

I agree with the Jace and Terminus but I'm a fan of Azorius Charm. 7 board wipes is too many, two can be cut plus a jace and that leaves room for a handful of counters. Too many counters in a world with Cavern of Souls is a bad idea but some are important. Since Snapcaster Mage isn't in the list I could see an argument for cutting one Charm as well. It's a strong enough card though, especially early in a game that I think having a few is good.

[Rayman420]

App for Brains is an amazing SB card, and I have been running 4x since everyone and their dentist started running thragtusks, restoration angels, angels of serenity, hellkites, planeswalkers, and slaughter games. Also hits unburial rites, which is kinda sweet, as they dont get the flashback. I cannot say enough good things about this card. If they are going big, eat their brains.

[redtwister]

As much as I like Dissipate and running a strong counter-magic deck, I really feel better with Damaja's main deck build.

This is because UWR is the better counter spell build because of Counterflux and Izzet Charm. I'm not going to win a counter war vs. UWR Control or UWR Flash or UWR Midrange. It just isn't going to happen. I have to control some other way, and to me that is under-costed hand control which also gives me insight into what they have open.

I also don't entirely care (I care a little, just not a huge amount) about their Sphinx's Revelations, since their life total is not my problem and mega-draws help me mill them. Besides, Duress is a better way prevent cards like that in the Esper vs. American match-ups. It's pretty sweet to play Duress and watch UWR try and decide if it is worth using their precious counter-magic to stop that, knowing they won't get to use it again on your Sphinx's Revelation, or the chance that you won't take their SR and instead still take their Counterflux, and know exactly what they have in hand.

I might cut a Jace, Architect of Thought, but it would not be to put in counter-magic right now. I would probably add a main deck Appetite for Brains.

As for Terminus, until my locals stop showing me 90% aggro (BG Zombies, BG Aggro, UW Humans, GW Aggro), aggro-control (UWR Flash), and mid-range (Jund, various Reanimators, 4C, GW Beatdown, Naya Beatdown), I'm keeping sweepers I can Miracle. With this build, 10 removal cards and 4 Time Walks are what make it a board control beast.

Appetite for Brains is so good, but you left out that most nasty card: Zealous Conscripts. I love taking that card away. It just feels so good.

EDIT:
Actually, if I -1 Terminus, -1 Jace, Architect of Thought, I would probably +2 Curse of Death's Hold.

[Cipher]

I ran Despise last year in Grixis, but you had your opponent's entire hand to choose from when playing it against most decks. Appetite for Brains in a control deck seems even narrower than the Wtichbane Orbs and Curse of Echoes, which I didn't think was possible. The cards going to brick half the time, and the other half they're just going to resolve the other fatty that you saw in their hand.

Unless you're playing a tap-out Esper fatty deck, I can't imagine you actually want to be running these. That or if you already have 8 counters maindeck or something crazy like that. Even then, I can't imagine running Appetite for Brains over Duress. If it's not apparent why targeted discard is a bad answer to aggressive strategies then I don't know what to tell you.

[Rayman420]

You don't have to run them over duress if you don't want, or even at all, but I can't think of a card that makes really good cards look as foolish as app for brains does. Angel of serenity loop says hi.

[Aazadan]

Originally Posted by redtwister

EDIT:
Actually, if I -1 Terminus, -1 Jace, Architect of Thought, I would probably +2 Curse of Death's Hold.

I like Curse of Death's Hold the trick is living long enough to cast it in an aggro meta. It can be done but I wouldn't call it the most consistent play in the world, even at 27 land and 11 black sources there's a not unheard of chance of lacking the mana turn 5.

[Damaja]

There is a LOT of over thinking going on in this thread. Stop over thinking lol you do NOT need Counters .... besides vs these decks like Flash and American Midrange you will not win the counter wars anyways so why bother? I am beating Flash and American Midrange quite easily without any counters at all, if you know how to bait counters then you will have no issues at all.

[Aegraen]

Originally Posted by Damaja

There is a LOT of over thinking going on in this thread. Stop over thinking lol you do NOT need Counters .... besides vs these decks like Flash and American Midrange you will not win the counter wars anyways so why bother? I am beating Flash and American Midrange quite easily without any counters at all, if you know how to bait counters then you will have no issues at all.

I lose to American Control with Devil's play quite a bit. As well as a wide range of other spells. For this reason I've chosen to add 3 counters (Dissipate) to my M/D. It isn't like they are dead by any stretch of the imagination. Countering Bonfire would have saved my ass in so many games, for instance.

[Damaja]

Originally Posted by Aegraen

I lose to American Control with Devil's play quite a bit. As well as a wide range of other spells. For this reason I've chosen to add 3 counters (Dissipate) to my M/D. It isn't like they are dead by any stretch of the imagination. Countering Bonfire would have saved my ass in so many games, for instance.

That is your choice, but vs Control decks, Esper is an easy win over them. My Control matchups are always bringing smiles to my face, I just have such good match ups vs them. Exactly why are you losing to American Control anyways?

[Aegraen]

Originally Posted by Damaja

That is your choice, but vs Control decks, Esper is an easy win over them. My Control matchups are always bringing smiles to my face, I just have such good match ups vs them. Exactly why are you losing to American Control anyways?

Since you play no counterspells, I'm wondering how you even get to resolve much against 4x Snapcaster + the 4-6 counterspells they play. Never mind they have a laundry list of burn spells to take out your planeswalkers if your life total is sufficiently high enough (assuming you got one to resolve). Bonfire + Devils Play is a beating when you are running no counter spells.

They're also running Sphinx + Jace + either Izzet or Az Charm and other CA/Hand quality engines so they can easily keep up with you in that department. I played one the other day who had a Staff of Nin out of the sideboard and that was just too much for me after I had all ready used one of my two Detention Sphere's on his PW.

Granted, I had just changed up my deck a little and didn't have time before pairings to fix my side board....so there's that.

[kamWise]

Originally Posted by Damaja

That is your choice, but vs Control decks, Esper is an easy win over them. My Control matchups are always bringing smiles to my face, I just have such good match ups vs them. Exactly why are you losing to American Control anyways?

Since you have the extra slots from not using counterspells, I'm interested in what cards you decided to put it. What is your current list looking like?

[Damaja]

Originally Posted by kamWise

Since you have the extra slots from not using counterspells, I'm interested in what cards you decided to put it. What is your current list looking like?

go backwards into this thread into you see my last posted list.

Originally Posted by Aegraen

Since you play no counterspells, I'm wondering how you even get to resolve much against 4x Snapcaster + the 4-6 counterspells they play. Never mind they have a laundry list of burn spells to take out your planeswalkers if your life total is sufficiently high enough (assuming you got one to resolve). Bonfire + Devils Play is a beating when you are running no counter spells.

They're also running Sphinx + Jace + either Izzet or Az Charm and other CA/Hand quality engines so they can easily keep up with you in that department. I played one the other day who had a Staff of Nin out of the sideboard and that was just too much for me after I had all ready used one of my two Detention Sphere's on his PW.

Granted, I had just changed up my deck a little and didn't have time before pairings to fix my side board....so there's that.

Playing smart I guess, the first time I faced that deck I figured a loss was soon coming, but after the 2-0 win it just didnt seem that hard, and G2-3 R.I.P shut all the Snapcaster Mage tricks down. I ended up Ultimating Tamiyo the Moon Sage and proceeded to Oblivion Ring my R.I.P to get use out of that Ultimate. I agree on paper it really seems like a BAD BAD BAD matchup for us, but so far it has not been hard at all. Seems Rest in Peace is key to shutting them down after G1 even though I beat it G1 hehe so I dunno, I plan to test more vs this deck.