One of my favorite cards ever. I don't find it to be too powerful in my unpowered Winston cube, but then again my cube is balanced in a way that makes it hard for blue decks to win because drafting blue puts your opponent in very aggressive colors that end up kicking the snot out of you. Blue needs bombs like Mana Drain to survive in my cube.
Where you draw the line is a personal choice. Some dislike fast mana, some auto picks (Library, Sol ring, Black Lotus), some focus on the name Power 9.
If you ban this, do you have to ban Jitte? Or Channel? Maybe, but there are good reasons both ways.
I would play it in an Unpowered Cube. Because it doesn't break the format and it doesn't fit in any deck (you need to be quite blue).
This card is comparable to a counterspell + black lotus. It's one of my favorite and most powerful blue cards, and will stay that way because they'll never print something like it ever again.
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I'd play one if I had it. I've played cubes where it is in, and it's very good. I've actually never played with it in my own deck, just played against it a lot (which is funny because I'm usually a blue mage), but it's pretty bonkers. The biggest problem I've had with it is how dejected it makes me for a length of time, because I play my spell, it gets countered, and then I have to wait until their next turn to find out how they're going to use my own mana against me!
I will say this, if you wanted to play Channel, I think it's a good idea to also have this. The U/G deck that wants channel also wants this, and I think giving more tools that push the channel deck is good if you want channel to be played. When we played channel, it was too swingy: Either it was broken or it did nothing, and it went last a lot. By adding in other tools for big mana like this you give people more reasons to draft channel. Decide on your own if that's actually good for your environment.
At the moment I dont play fast mana and P9. Never played with the card outside of MODO cube (only once) and I am not sure if it counts as fast mana.
It may not count as fast mana, depending, but it can count as big mana. Its bad enough if it fuels Fact or Fiction or something but sometimes it gives them early Wurmcoil Engine.
But Jeff's right that it can get nasty in UG decks with Channel too. But those are typically the decks that would rather cast Wurmcoil engine than Emrakul/Blighsteel.
It's a bit too strong for unpowered. Unpowered seems like a format where you're trying to eliminate the one card blow-out enablers that are really cheap (the fast mana, the cheap card draw/extra turns/discard your whole hands) and this card is a one-card blow-out enabler. Potentially casting 5-6 drops on t3/4 off of a counter spell is an explosion of power a lot of unpowered decks can't answer on their own, or at least keep up with.
I play it in my unpowered 450 and it hasn't been a problem, although that is probably due to the fact that we usually play 1v1 sealed/winston and its hard to build around it when the card selection is so light.
I recently cut it from my unpowered cube. The early mana boost that it provided was just too much compared to what other decks were able to do. Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary can provide a similar early boost, but he can be killed by a lot of one and two mana removal spells before he gets active. Mana Drain not only cannot be stopped that easily, it also stops one of your own spells in addition to the ramp. Talk about unfair.
It is a really degenerate card, giving you access to potentially large sums of mana for no work, or risk, other than keeping up two islands. It's pretty out of flavour for blue but it's something unique and special.
I much preferred the card's dynamics when mana burn was a thing; sometimes you would have the choice to counter a spell without the possibility to abuse the mana next turn. Still broken, but a little more interesting.
This is probably the most powerful card in my cube that I haven't cut for being too good. I have very fond memories of tracking a playset down after Legends came out and running riot with them, so it isn't going anywhere. It is insanely good though, and if you want to cut it for being too powerful, I wouldn't blame you.
This is probably the most powerful card in my cube that I haven't cut for being too good. I have very fond memories of tracking a playset down after Legends came out and running riot with them, so it isn't going anywhere. It is insanely good though, and if you want to cut it for being too powerful, I wouldn't blame you.
I remember buying Italian ones for $20..loooooong time ago.
My favorite play of all time in Cube was countering my opponent's Bogardan Hellkite, then, with the 8 mana available, tapped all my lands into an Upheaval and Karn Liberated.
This card is absolutely insane. There are certain decks that will just lose to it, if you have this card in hand. Countering the 4-5th turn play, then dropping something really hard to deal with like Inkwell Leviathan or Simic Sky Swallower? Just. Not. Fair.
My favorite play of all time in Cube was countering my opponent's Bogardan Hellkite, then, with the 8 mana available, tapped all my lands into an Upheaval and Karn Liberated.
Even countering something in the 2-3 mana region can generate a tempo swing that your opponent can't recover from. BCS your opponent's 2 drop is facing a Wurmcoil Engine now without card disadvantage on your side, but casting a permanent ramp spell / card draw / medium size creature while still being able to keep mana up for your opponent's next turn is already a very good deal.
We had multiple games where cards like Frost Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Keiga, the Tide Star or Sphinx of Jwar Isle were cast on turn three. It was just unfair to give one blue mage at the draft such an insane acceleration while all the other players had to use fairer mana ramp.
I don't ban cards for power reasons, only for accessibility and for being too fast an accelerator. And Mana Drain is at least the latter (see examples above).
I had it banned from my unpowered cube the last few years (before that I had it in and it was too good), but I reincluded it a month or two ago to see how it played with the higher overall power-level of cards now. I'm still on the fence if I think I can keep it in right now, but it's swingy in the same way that Show and Tell, Tinker, Eureka, Natural Order, Grim Monolith, etc. are swingy. For now though I'll keep testing it out and if the players here enjoy it more than they have in the past.
I had it banned from my unpowered cube the last few years (before that I had it in and it was too good), but I reincluded it a month or two ago to see how it played with the higher overall power-level of cards now. I'm still on the fence if I think I can keep it in right now, but it's swingy in the same way that Show and Tell, Tinker, Eureka, Natural Order, Grim Monolith, etc. are swingy. For now though I'll keep testing it out and if the players here enjoy it more than they have in the past.
I don't consider a card having its worst mode being counterspell to be swingy. I never could understand why it was never restricted in the old days. For many blue decks I find it better than the big 3(OK maybe not ancestral).
I don't find it out of flavor for blue because in my opinion everything pre-ice age defined flavor for magic.
I don't have one but I doubt I would ban it, but that is because my group likes splashy cards. Also I have been pushing CMC down so a blue mage better be draining something 2-3 mana or get stomped on.
If there is one card that should have been errataed when they elimated mana burn it was this one.
I had it banned from my unpowered cube the last few years (before that I had it in and it was too good), but I reincluded it a month or two ago to see how it played with the higher overall power-level of cards now. I'm still on the fence if I think I can keep it in right now, but it's swingy in the same way that Show and Tell, Tinker, Eureka, Natural Order, Grim Monolith, etc. are swingy. For now though I'll keep testing it out and if the players here enjoy it more than they have in the past.
Is it though? It's swingy in that it has a large range of outcomes, and the best one is really good. It's not really swingy in the way that most of those other cards are, as sometimes they're just dead cards - at worst it's a Counterspell!
I had it banned from my unpowered cube the last few years (before that I had it in and it was too good), but I reincluded it a month or two ago to see how it played with the higher overall power-level of cards now. I'm still on the fence if I think I can keep it in right now, but it's swingy in the same way that Show and Tell, Tinker, Eureka, Natural Order, Grim Monolith, etc. are swingy. For now though I'll keep testing it out and if the players here enjoy it more than they have in the past.
1. As others said: Mana Drain is far from swingy. Now that we don't have mana burn anymore, it is always great.
2. The difference between Show and Tell, Tinker, Eureka, Natural Order, reanimation in general and super fast mana is that the former cards only work with certain card types, while mana can be used for everything. Most of those cheater cards also come with some sort of drawback or need to be set up properly.
It is a really degenerate card, giving you access to potentially large sums of mana for no work, or risk, other than keeping up two islands. It's pretty out of flavour for blue but it's something unique and special.
I much preferred the card's dynamics when mana burn was a thing; sometimes you would have the choice to counter a spell without the possibility to abuse the mana next turn. Still broken, but a little more interesting.
We play mana-burn / 6th rules...it doesn't matter, I'll burn a few life any day of the week...no brainer. Staple. Would anyone cut plain-ole' counterspell?
We play mana-burn / 6th rules...it doesn't matter, I'll burn a few life any day of the week...no brainer. Staple. Would anyone cut plain-ole' counterspell?
Countering a non-critical spell against aggro if you might take 3 or 4 damage might not always be a great idea. So although it would usually be played without an outlet, it's not quite a 'no brainer', and in those cases, straight up Counterspell was better. But yes, it is a staple with or without mana burn. Obviously.
Countering a non-critical spell against aggro if you might take 3 or 4 damage might not always be a great idea. So although it would usually be played without an outlet, it's not quite a 'no brainer', and in those cases, straight up Counterspell was better. But yes, it is a staple with or without mana burn. Obviously.
Right, rarely will you not have an outlet for some of that mana. Maybe not all of it, but I'd burn a couple that I can't outlet for some free mana...
Now here's a question...can you ever see Counterspell being cut from your cube...ever? If not, then Mana Drain with the risk of mana-burning 1 to (maybe) 3 mana is worth the other free mana you get in your outlet...plus the counter itself of course.
The only way I'd see Mana Drain not making it, is for power reasons.
A strong card. My question is this would perfom in unpowered? Probably too good?
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If you ban this, do you have to ban Jitte? Or Channel? Maybe, but there are good reasons both ways.
I would play it in an Unpowered Cube. Because it doesn't break the format and it doesn't fit in any deck (you need to be quite blue).
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I will say this, if you wanted to play Channel, I think it's a good idea to also have this. The U/G deck that wants channel also wants this, and I think giving more tools that push the channel deck is good if you want channel to be played. When we played channel, it was too swingy: Either it was broken or it did nothing, and it went last a lot. By adding in other tools for big mana like this you give people more reasons to draft channel. Decide on your own if that's actually good for your environment.
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It may not count as fast mana, depending, but it can count as big mana. Its bad enough if it fuels Fact or Fiction or something but sometimes it gives them early Wurmcoil Engine.
But Jeff's right that it can get nasty in UG decks with Channel too. But those are typically the decks that would rather cast Wurmcoil engine than Emrakul/Blighsteel.
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I much preferred the card's dynamics when mana burn was a thing; sometimes you would have the choice to counter a spell without the possibility to abuse the mana next turn. Still broken, but a little more interesting.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I remember buying Italian ones for $20..loooooong time ago.
This card is absolutely insane. There are certain decks that will just lose to it, if you have this card in hand. Countering the 4-5th turn play, then dropping something really hard to deal with like Inkwell Leviathan or Simic Sky Swallower? Just. Not. Fair.
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Probably not. I assume he had to restart the game to win it. Having just Karn on the field isn't much of an advantage.
//sarcasm
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We had multiple games where cards like Frost Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Keiga, the Tide Star or Sphinx of Jwar Isle were cast on turn three. It was just unfair to give one blue mage at the draft such an insane acceleration while all the other players had to use fairer mana ramp.
I don't ban cards for power reasons, only for accessibility and for being too fast an accelerator. And Mana Drain is at least the latter (see examples above).
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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I don't consider a card having its worst mode being counterspell to be swingy. I never could understand why it was never restricted in the old days. For many blue decks I find it better than the big 3(OK maybe not ancestral).
I don't find it out of flavor for blue because in my opinion everything pre-ice age defined flavor for magic.
I don't have one but I doubt I would ban it, but that is because my group likes splashy cards. Also I have been pushing CMC down so a blue mage better be draining something 2-3 mana or get stomped on.
If there is one card that should have been errataed when they elimated mana burn it was this one.
Is it though? It's swingy in that it has a large range of outcomes, and the best one is really good. It's not really swingy in the way that most of those other cards are, as sometimes they're just dead cards - at worst it's a Counterspell!
Draft it on Cubetutor!
1. As others said: Mana Drain is far from swingy. Now that we don't have mana burn anymore, it is always great.
2. The difference between Show and Tell, Tinker, Eureka, Natural Order, reanimation in general and super fast mana is that the former cards only work with certain card types, while mana can be used for everything. Most of those cheater cards also come with some sort of drawback or need to be set up properly.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
We play mana-burn / 6th rules...it doesn't matter, I'll burn a few life any day of the week...no brainer. Staple. Would anyone cut plain-ole' counterspell?
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
Countering a non-critical spell against aggro if you might take 3 or 4 damage might not always be a great idea. So although it would usually be played without an outlet, it's not quite a 'no brainer', and in those cases, straight up Counterspell was better. But yes, it is a staple with or without mana burn. Obviously.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Right, rarely will you not have an outlet for some of that mana. Maybe not all of it, but I'd burn a couple that I can't outlet for some free mana...
Now here's a question...can you ever see Counterspell being cut from your cube...ever? If not, then Mana Drain with the risk of mana-burning 1 to (maybe) 3 mana is worth the other free mana you get in your outlet...plus the counter itself of course.
The only way I'd see Mana Drain not making it, is for power reasons.
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass