During last months cubes tend to allow black heavy cards and I wonder why this card wasnt discussed before. Its an edict on a 2/2 which is good. Or is the triple black too hard for this kind of effect?
I honestly haven't had much of a problem hitting BBB on/near curve for it, I tried it not long after I found that Geralf's Messenger worked well in my cube. I'm a fan, even though it took me a while to warm up to it.
I like him (and run him) because he doesn't need to be cast on turn 3 in order to be good, much like Geralf's Messenger. His ability is good at various points in the game, which mitigates the BBB cost.
I think it's too hard a cost for too fair a card. Geralf's Messenger is worth BBB because it's a monster of a creature. Gatekeeper won't be scooped up and played by me unless I'm already heavily in black for a better reason. It was an easy card to cut for more universally playable creatures.
I agree, you arguably get a better effect on the easier to cast 187 creatures. The difference between "supporting heavy black" and "force feeding heavy black" comes in to play here.
I like Phyrexian Obliterator too (he is FUN) but I don't honestly know if I would recommend anyone Cube with it.
I think the difference between BBB and BBBB is HUGE, though. I feel that Gatekeeper fits into the 'support' much more than 'force' category. And he is still a grizzly bear if you need it!
Just saying that the option is there, in case you need a warm body for equipment in an emergency if the third black isn't coming. Not a selling point, per se, just a side benefit.
Just saying that the option is there, in case you need a warm body for equipment in an emergency if the third black isn't coming. Not a selling point, per se, just a side benefit.
Do Vampires have warm bodies? Zombies most certainly don't, neither do skeletons, so would vamps as another kind of undead?
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Absolutely makes it on power level, absolutely fails on casting cost. He is very good in Pox aggro though, if you support that archetype at 450 or above I think he's a fine inclusion, as long as you make sure your black section has plenty of things to do other than mono-black.
Absolutely makes it on power level, absolutely fails on casting cost. He is very good in Pox aggro though, if you support that archetype at 450 or above I think he's a fine inclusion, as long as you make sure your black section has plenty of things to do other than mono-black.
I do think it pushes too hard toward a single strategy (Pox or Stax) but I don't really mind that it is a heavy black commitment. For us, all of the colors tend to play a primary role and pick up a secondary color as a complement, especially in the aggro decks.
This is way off topic, but a big problem for us is that we can balance our guilds EXCEPT for the fact that whites best beaters all happen to be W/G. Guys like Loam Lion, Gaddock Teeg, and Knight of the Reliquary are really close to just being white creatures because they're going in a white shell with some complementary green cards.
Meanwhile, whites role in red is WAY less land focused (Armageddon, Skyfisher, Lynx, etc) and much more just supplying additional generic beaters.
EDIT: the above probably sounds like a tangent but I'm trying to touch on how the colors actually interact during drafts and deck construction which greatly affects the color commitment you can make when building the sections in your Cube. For instance, I doubt anyone cubes with Predator Ooze or Leatherback Baloth but Geralf's Messenger is flatout out one of the best 3s in Cube. Granted, there is an inherent power gap, but still it seems like no one anticipated such a turn.
Has been surprisingly great for us since we added him. As stated, the BBB isn't as much of a problem, because you're usually not in a huge rush to cast it (except against aggro where I will often drop it as a bear).
Come into play kill effects strapped onto creatures...it never gets old.
For instance, I doubt anyone cubes with Predator Ooze or Leatherback Baloth but Geralf's Messenger is flatout out one of the best 3s in Cube. Granted, there is an inherent power gap, but still it seems like no one anticipated such a turn.
I actually do run Leatherback Baloth, to give green aggro another tool. He is real hard to deal with on t2 by non-black means with any of the green-producing 'elves' (of which I have 5: Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Arbor, BoP, and Hierarch), and is one of the best possible t2 plays in the sequence of playing an elf T1, a 3 T2, then a 4 T3.
Also curious why DShumm dropped him after reading this, since the opinion has been pretty split.
I actually do run Leatherback Baloth, to give green aggro another tool. He is real hard to deal with on t2 by non-black means with any of the green-producing 'elves' (of which I have 5: Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Arbor, BoP, and Hierarch), and is one of the best possible t2 plays in the sequence of playing an elf T1, a 3 T2, then a 4 T3.
Also curious why DShumm dropped him after reading this, since the opinion has been pretty split.
-AA
I'm pretty convinced that Leatherback Baloth is great and better than Dungrove Elder who we are running. However, my friend is in love with Kessig Wolf Run with Dungrove. He has pulled it off against my brother but my brother likes to play Wall decks.
Oh, and I don't understand dropping him due to this thread either. With AP (Adrian Peter Abyssal Persecutor) he is like the best one of them all.
I actually do run Leatherback Baloth, to give green aggro another tool. He is real hard to deal with on t2 by non-black means with any of the green-producing 'elves' (of which I have 5: Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Arbor, BoP, and Hierarch), and is one of the best possible t2 plays in the sequence of playing an elf T1, a 3 T2, then a 4 T3.
Also curious why DShumm dropped him after reading this, since the opinion has been pretty split.
-AA
You should make a thread on Leatherback. I like the guy but could never quite stomach the cost for a (very aggressively costed) vanilla.
I could certainly see Leatherback Baloth being worthy in a mid sized cube, depending on construction, but Gatekeeper is a completely different animal. CCC cards that are great against control and aren't blanks against aggro (even land denial aggro) are quite rare.
I could certainly see Leatherback Baloth being worthy in a mid sized cube, depending on construction, but Gatekeeper is a completely different animal. CCC cards that are great against control and aren't blanks against aggro (even land denial aggro) are quite rare.
Baloth is GREAT vs aggro and a WAY above curve pounder against control. I can't think of any 3s or 4s that can hang with him that aren't 187s.
Another point against it is that the ability is a Kicker ability, so it does not work for animator, flicker or any other ETB shenanigans. You can only really use it once just like a normal spell. Then what you are left with is a measly 2/2. It's CA of course, but compared to the other "Nekrataals" this is a lot worse.
Another point against it is that the ability is a Kicker ability, so it does not work for animator, flicker or any other ETB shenanigans. You can only really use it once just like a normal spell. Then what you are left with is a measly 2/2. It's CA of course, but compared to the other "Nekrataals" this is a lot worse.
During last months cubes tend to allow black heavy cards and I wonder why this card wasnt discussed before. Its an edict on a 2/2 which is good. Or is the triple black too hard for this kind of effect?
My Peasant Cube: @ mtgsalvation---- @ cubecobra
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I like Phyrexian Obliterator too (he is FUN) but I don't honestly know if I would recommend anyone Cube with it.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
But I like having edicts, especially on bodies.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Do Vampires have warm bodies? Zombies most certainly don't, neither do skeletons, so would vamps as another kind of undead?
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Never seen it. That's from White Wolf lore.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I do think it pushes too hard toward a single strategy (Pox or Stax) but I don't really mind that it is a heavy black commitment. For us, all of the colors tend to play a primary role and pick up a secondary color as a complement, especially in the aggro decks.
This is way off topic, but a big problem for us is that we can balance our guilds EXCEPT for the fact that whites best beaters all happen to be W/G. Guys like Loam Lion, Gaddock Teeg, and Knight of the Reliquary are really close to just being white creatures because they're going in a white shell with some complementary green cards.
Meanwhile, whites role in red is WAY less land focused (Armageddon, Skyfisher, Lynx, etc) and much more just supplying additional generic beaters.
EDIT: the above probably sounds like a tangent but I'm trying to touch on how the colors actually interact during drafts and deck construction which greatly affects the color commitment you can make when building the sections in your Cube. For instance, I doubt anyone cubes with Predator Ooze or Leatherback Baloth but Geralf's Messenger is flatout out one of the best 3s in Cube. Granted, there is an inherent power gap, but still it seems like no one anticipated such a turn.
Come into play kill effects strapped onto creatures...it never gets old.
I actually do run Leatherback Baloth, to give green aggro another tool. He is real hard to deal with on t2 by non-black means with any of the green-producing 'elves' (of which I have 5: Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Arbor, BoP, and Hierarch), and is one of the best possible t2 plays in the sequence of playing an elf T1, a 3 T2, then a 4 T3.
Also curious why DShumm dropped him after reading this, since the opinion has been pretty split.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
I'm pretty convinced that Leatherback Baloth is great and better than Dungrove Elder who we are running. However, my friend is in love with Kessig Wolf Run with Dungrove. He has pulled it off against my brother but my brother likes to play Wall decks.
Oh, and I don't understand dropping him due to this thread either. With AP (
Adrian PeterAbyssal Persecutor) he is like the best one of them all.You should make a thread on Leatherback. I like the guy but could never quite stomach the cost for a (very aggressively costed) vanilla.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
When I've playe him in the past he functioned more like a better Tarmogoyf than he did a beater. Red can't get rid of him at all.
Baloth is GREAT vs aggro and a WAY above curve pounder against control. I can't think of any 3s or 4s that can hang with him that aren't 187s.
I'd rather play Fleshbag Marauder, as it is splashable, and you can be rewarded with 3 power if you sac a Reassembling Skeleton, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Hellspark Elemental, or even a measly 1/1.
I think the best ones are
Shriekmaw
Bone Shredder
Fleshbag Marauder
Skinrender
At 360 Nekrataal feels like one too many terrors to us since a bunch of the top end creatures are black or artifact.
EDIT: and don't overlook being able to sac Academy Rector to Fleshbag