I was whipping someone up as a joke after reading all the janky standard infinite combos we were getting this set, when I realized the colors and strategies lined up to reach a janky singularity, and I'm starting to wonder, is there any element of playability to that event horizon? Mostly intended to be humorous, but consider a deck that has tons of stall, three different infinite combos and tons of backup plans should things go awry.
Duskmantle Guildmage + Jace, Memory Adept is a 20 damage combo on turn 6. Bracers make it easier and amplify his own reach in a pinch (3UUBB: Lose 8 life or 4UUUBBB for 16).
Vizkopa Guildmage + Exquisite Blood is an infinite combo sparked by any life loss on them or life gain on yourself- souls, nighthawk, seraph, or just activating his own ability or swinging with a guildmage all serve as initiation.
Captain of the Mists + Illusionist's Bracers + Gilded Lotus is infinite mana and a tapdown lock on your opponents until you draw into a way to kill them with that infinite mana- either of the guildmages or drownyard provides a mana sink win condition, or you can just swing through each turn with the lockdown.
The rest of the deck fits as much stall as possible, running souls and sweepers and nighthawks to thwart aggro as long as possible, and some mana fixing/removal/dig for good measure. Particularly if you can stabilize to whip out mana rocks, you could afford to flashback the dig and pull stray combo pieces
So, have I gone truly stark raving bonkers this time? Is there even a grain of merit to this?
I must be missing something... How does the captain of the mists combo work?
Bracers copys the ability, so you tap the first and 2 mana to untap 2 mana? That leaves the captain tapped... Then use the 2 mana to untap the first captain again and your right back where you started except with 1 tapped captain?
Ah whoops, and thanks, was a typo in there, meant to be gilded lotus, fixed that.
I'm sure you can figure it without the typo, but the Captain + Gilded Lotus + Bracers gives you infinite mana of all colors, taps all your opponents permanents and untaps all of your own, so you can kill them with anything really. They can still cast instants during their untap step and can still plow through it with hexproof beaters, so its not a 100% lock. It can use any mana sink even if it has a T, so drownyard decks them
Ah whoops, and thanks, was a typo in there, meant to be gilded lotus, fixed that.
I'm sure you can figure it without the typo, but the Captain + Gilded Lotus + Bracers gives you infinite mana of all colors, taps all your opponents permanents and untaps all of your own, so you can kill them with anything really. They can still cast instants during their untap step and can still plow through it with hexproof beaters, so its not a 100% lock. It can use any mana sink even if it has a T, so drownyard decks them
Got it, +1 mana every cycle... thats actually pretty cool because its access to any colours as well.
The only questionable cards in my mind are the Chromatic Lanterns and the Oblivion Rings. Did you feel your 3 drop slot was low? I understand ramping into Guilded Lotus is pretty nice but I think most of the time your just going to want to be able to sweep on turn 4 instead of tapping out for guilded lotus. And as for oblivion ring, isn't there just better options? Detention Sphere being the first that comes to my mind, but really I think I would run some more sweepers..
Since we are operating under the assumption that this deck is janky until proven otherwise, how about Divine Reckoning? Your creatures are pretty horrible, but also very necessary in order to win. Divine Reckoning takes some pressure off but still keeps your relevant combo piece on the board... If you up the number of spot removal spells by a couple of Ultimate Price, this could be a thing? Probably not though lol
I was figuring chromatic mostly since the deck could use the mana fixing, but maybe thats overblown for 3 colors? A good chunk of the cards can go off at 5; both guildmages can activate their abilities at 5, exquisite blood and gilded are 5, and yeah it sure is a good feeling to ramp into it, even as like you say, you're going to want to resolve a sweeper then. Lingering souls doubles up at 5 and bracers equip and jace comes down and there sure are a lot of 2-3 drops, it lets you cram them in easier. But I don't have much experience testing out the land bases, so if it really doesn't struggle with mana fixing, I wouldn't bother. A 2-of revelation seems like a solid choice
Yeah I dunno about other alternatives to O-Ring. I was figuring that the deck is lite on spot removal and had limited spaces to fill it, so it should be pretty versatile. O-Ring answers non-aggro decks, but detention sphere is incolor and sweeps tokens. Though I was worried detention sphere might give a deck that is already tough on colors more grief, I'd hate to miss an OR on T3 because of the land base. WU is the toughest since I was making the deck B centric, as most of the cards are and swamps fuel mutilate.
Divine Reckoning, heh, now theres some fun jank struggling to pop its head in. I love it. It works great with the lotuses, but necessitates running more spot removal like you say. Maybe if you step the number of captains up to 3 so they can lock down a remaining guy. But how many 4 sweepers do we want? I don't know what a good number is for a deck like this
Good point. Seems more like a tempo card, same with its buddy, and this deck would want more permanent solutions to buy even more time than tempo can afford, but its interesting because even if you aetherize their thragtusks, which is normally a big no-no, you aren't caring too much about the +10 life, even if you go for the jace kill you can just hit them yet another time with it anyway- the other wincons are infinite after all
Now that I think about it, this decks only real answers to thrag are to tap him down with captain of the mists or just hurl spirit tokens in his path. A real problem with rancor or wolf run decks.
.....I'd hate to miss an OR on T3 because of the land base. WU is the toughest since I was making the deck B centric, as most of the cards are and swamps fuel mutilate.
I think you could afford to cut Nephalia Drownyard, realistically I don't think the 1-of is going to get you there. Same with Cavern of Souls.. Nobody is playing counterspells, and your creatures are so cheap and unassuming that nobody is gonna counter them unless they have access to your decklist. **edit I see why the 1-of now, as a trigger mechanism... same as the seraphs sanctuary... still think the caverns gotta go.
Quick question, do the Guildmage abilities stack, no right? Because if they do this deck is a lot better than meets the eye with the Illusionist Bracers.
Yeah I think the caverns could probably get the boot. I figure that with 9 creatures that are all Human Wizards, 6 of them which you can lay down without passing priority to go off on a combo with counterspells as your opponents only retort, there is a good argument for caverns, but eh, like you say, who is playing countermagic?
But yeah three out of four of the guildmage abilities stack with bracers, as does captain. Vizkopa can't give lifelink more than once, but it can double up on its lifeloss-from-lifegain, so it can make a vampire nighthawk deal 6 damage in a pinch, 10 if you pay 2WWBB with the bracers. On Duskmantle Guildmage, he becomes a mana sink that can win on a slow board. Turns 7 mana into 8 damage with bracers, 10 mana into 16 damage, or just burn them for 2 damage for 3 mana when they cast an instant/sorcery or whatnot.
3 Vizkopa Guildmage
3 Duskmantle Guildmage
3 Captain of the Mists
3 Vampire Nighthawk
Artifacts/Enchantments: 12
3 Chromatic Lantern
2 Gilded Lotus
2 Illusionist's Bracers
2 Exquisite Blood
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Mutilate
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Lingering Souls
Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace, Memory Adept
Lands: 23
4 Watery Grave
4 Godless Shrine
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Seraph Sanctuary
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Island
I was whipping someone up as a joke after reading all the janky standard infinite combos we were getting this set, when I realized the colors and strategies lined up to reach a janky singularity, and I'm starting to wonder, is there any element of playability to that event horizon? Mostly intended to be humorous, but consider a deck that has tons of stall, three different infinite combos and tons of backup plans should things go awry.
Duskmantle Guildmage + Jace, Memory Adept is a 20 damage combo on turn 6. Bracers make it easier and amplify his own reach in a pinch (3UUBB: Lose 8 life or 4UUUBBB for 16).
Vizkopa Guildmage + Exquisite Blood is an infinite combo sparked by any life loss on them or life gain on yourself- souls, nighthawk, seraph, or just activating his own ability or swinging with a guildmage all serve as initiation.
Captain of the Mists + Illusionist's Bracers + Gilded Lotus is infinite mana and a tapdown lock on your opponents until you draw into a way to kill them with that infinite mana- either of the guildmages or drownyard provides a mana sink win condition, or you can just swing through each turn with the lockdown.
The rest of the deck fits as much stall as possible, running souls and sweepers and nighthawks to thwart aggro as long as possible, and some mana fixing/removal/dig for good measure. Particularly if you can stabilize to whip out mana rocks, you could afford to flashback the dig and pull stray combo pieces
So, have I gone truly stark raving bonkers this time? Is there even a grain of merit to this?
Bracers copys the ability, so you tap the first and 2 mana to untap 2 mana? That leaves the captain tapped... Then use the 2 mana to untap the first captain again and your right back where you started except with 1 tapped captain?
I'm sure you can figure it without the typo, but the Captain + Gilded Lotus + Bracers gives you infinite mana of all colors, taps all your opponents permanents and untaps all of your own, so you can kill them with anything really. They can still cast instants during their untap step and can still plow through it with hexproof beaters, so its not a 100% lock. It can use any mana sink even if it has a T, so drownyard decks them
Got it, +1 mana every cycle... thats actually pretty cool because its access to any colours as well.
The only questionable cards in my mind are the Chromatic Lanterns and the Oblivion Rings. Did you feel your 3 drop slot was low? I understand ramping into Guilded Lotus is pretty nice but I think most of the time your just going to want to be able to sweep on turn 4 instead of tapping out for guilded lotus. And as for oblivion ring, isn't there just better options? Detention Sphere being the first that comes to my mind, but really I think I would run some more sweepers..
Since we are operating under the assumption that this deck is janky until proven otherwise, how about Divine Reckoning? Your creatures are pretty horrible, but also very necessary in order to win. Divine Reckoning takes some pressure off but still keeps your relevant combo piece on the board... If you up the number of spot removal spells by a couple of Ultimate Price, this could be a thing? Probably not though lol
Yeah I dunno about other alternatives to O-Ring. I was figuring that the deck is lite on spot removal and had limited spaces to fill it, so it should be pretty versatile. O-Ring answers non-aggro decks, but detention sphere is incolor and sweeps tokens. Though I was worried detention sphere might give a deck that is already tough on colors more grief, I'd hate to miss an OR on T3 because of the land base. WU is the toughest since I was making the deck B centric, as most of the cards are and swamps fuel mutilate.
Divine Reckoning, heh, now theres some fun jank struggling to pop its head in. I love it. It works great with the lotuses, but necessitates running more spot removal like you say. Maybe if you step the number of captains up to 3 so they can lock down a remaining guy. But how many 4 sweepers do we want? I don't know what a good number is for a deck like this
Now that I think about it, this decks only real answers to thrag are to tap him down with captain of the mists or just hurl spirit tokens in his path. A real problem with rancor or wolf run decks.
I think you could afford to cut Nephalia Drownyard, realistically I don't think the 1-of is going to get you there. Same with Cavern of Souls.. Nobody is playing counterspells, and your creatures are so cheap and unassuming that nobody is gonna counter them unless they have access to your decklist. **edit I see why the 1-of now, as a trigger mechanism... same as the seraphs sanctuary... still think the caverns gotta go.
Quick question, do the Guildmage abilities stack, no right? Because if they do this deck is a lot better than meets the eye with the Illusionist Bracers.
But yeah three out of four of the guildmage abilities stack with bracers, as does captain. Vizkopa can't give lifelink more than once, but it can double up on its lifeloss-from-lifegain, so it can make a vampire nighthawk deal 6 damage in a pinch, 10 if you pay 2WWBB with the bracers. On Duskmantle Guildmage, he becomes a mana sink that can win on a slow board. Turns 7 mana into 8 damage with bracers, 10 mana into 16 damage, or just burn them for 2 damage for 3 mana when they cast an instant/sorcery or whatnot.
I really wanted to
Darn green mana.