So I've been pondering the Mono-Brown deck, and the Tinker-Goblin Welder decks as of late. One thing I've noticed that often times the single target removal in cube is so good that Tinkering for a big guy just isn't good enough... Even grabbing something like Sundering Titan can be equalized by a removal spell that forces you to get less value off of his land kill ability. I've also just been using Tinker more and more to bring out good utility cards, Batterskull, Smokestack, and obviously Triskelion.
The other issue is that in the Robots deck I often times just run out of cards after casting my big guy. Yes I have all the mana rocks in the world, but just like Stax I kind of vomit out my hand and sometimes don't get there because I don't have enough good draw capability in my deck. The same can be said for Green hyper ramp.
With all of this, I've actually been thinking about this card more. Yes, it's not great when you consider it as something you play later in the game, but when you can play it out on turn 4, or earlier, doesn't the extra card become very relevant in the decks that can normally just fail on drawing poorly? The ping ability is never dead, and it can really hamper a lot of cards in a Cube... I don't know, what do you guys think? I'm tempted to give this thing a shot, it seems deceptively good and can generate quite a lot of advantage. In a lot of cases, I'd be happy Tinkering this into play early instead of a big robot and gaining the advantage from it.
Edit: I'm also wondering if anyone has actually tested this card in their cube in a serious manner. I just seems like a less mana intensive Staff of Domination that can be Tinkered for profit.
If I am spending two cards to Tinker into this I will only start gaining card advantage two turns later, which seems a bit slow. The tiny damage output is useful, but still not worth it in my opinion. In a tinker deck I'd want to be fetching something better, and I don't think I'd want it in any other sort of deck either.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Yes, I understand that this isn't a truly apt comparison as all of the above effect the board state more than the Staff. However, I don't really agree with this mentality that "if I pay X mana for it, it should end the game." because in reality magic has never been about that as it's intended to be an interactive game.
More so, and this is probably the important thing, is that the decks that want Staff of Nin aren't decks that really differentiate between a 4 or 6 drop when it's not a coloured spell. In other words, when I'm vomiting out my hand via Mana Dorks, ramp, or simply mana rocks, I want ways to recuperate that lost card advantage, and playing Staff on turn 3-4, and then a big guy next turn is still putting me ahead of the opponent, while not completely crippling my hand if they have an answer to said big guy.
After all, there are a lot of ways to ramp into things in a cube, whether it's mana dorks, rocks, mana drain, Tinker, Goblin Welder, Metalworker, or whatever... And there are just as many ways to answer creatures, but not necessarily artifacts. Maybe I'm just over valuing this card, but Trading Post has proven itself to be very valuable as a whole, even though it costs a decent amount of mana to utilized and doesn't seem very impressive right off the bat.
@Humpty: Well you never really spend two cards to Tinker, you spend Tinker and simply replace one card. What other target would you Tinker for that would be better against an unknown opponent? I guess Inkwell Leviathan or Blightsteel Colossal if you run those? I mean after all, is not Dark Ritual into Phyrexian Arena considered a good play? So why can't Tinker be a ritual in this case that has a little more utility to it and fetches a better Arena?
As for what other decks I'd play it in, well I think it's fine in anything that wants to run its hand out for mana. As I've mentioned above, heavy ramp decks are prone to just being dead in the water if they go Land-> Mana Dork-> Land -> Ramp Spell -> Land -> Big Guy, and that big guy gets answered, because you've just used 6 cards that they answered with 1 more or less, and Staff helps you regain that loss while being harder to answer. The same even truer for Mana rock decks that run things like Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox as they're giving up an additional card in their ramping as opposed to green ramp... But both decks can play this card out as early as other decks can play out Phyrexian Arena.
So Catastrophe, Karn, liberated, Upheaval, and overloaded Mizzium Mortars all end the game on their own?
Pretty much, ya. A lot more than the Staff does.
I don't think it's worth 6 mana. And it's not worth Tinkering into play. If this was the only target in my pool, I wouldn't play a Tinker deck. And if I had this and a big robot in my deck, I'd Tinker the robot out every time.
I mean after all, is not Dark Ritual into Phyrexian Arena considered a good play? So why can't Tinker be a ritual in this case that has a little more utility to it and fetches a better Arena?
For a lot of reasons. First, if I don't have a Tinker, I don't have to pay 6 mana for my Arena. Second, there's no condition that requires me to have a certain card in play to sacrifice in order to get my Arena out. Paying 3 mana, losing a card and sacrificing an artifact is worth it if the payoff is a Sundering Titan or Wurmcoil Engine. Not if it's a Staff of Nin.
this looks WAY too low impact for something that costs 6. everything i run at that cost is game ending. it's not going to be worth 6 or 2U + artifact sacrifice until turn 9 or 10 at the earliest.
One thing I've noticed that often times the single target removal in cube is so good that Tinkering for a big guy just isn't good enough... Even grabbing something like Sundering Titan can be equalized by a removal spell that forces you to get less value off of his land kill ability.
when i ran tinker i usually used it to grab more resilient creatures like darksteel colossus, inkwell leviathan, or sphinx of the steel wind. i agree that titan can be neutralized easily sometimes, which is part of why i stopped running it.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Demagogue, I've been having similar feelings as you and I am poised to try running it the next time I update my cube (just got a foil one, too), but it will be a while before it has adequate testing.
Looks like a slow, do-nothing card to me. It's far below the standard of 6cc in cube. If I saw this dropped across the board from me, I'd think it was really cute and then play Grave Titan/Primeval Titan/Wurmcoil Engine/Consecrated Sphinx on my turn.
Demagogue, I've been having similar feelings as you and I am poised to try running it the next time I update my cube (just got a foil one, too), but it will be a while before it has adequate testing.
-rexx
Let me know how it goes, I'll add it into my cube for some testing as post the results here when I've gotten some reasonable data.
I don't think it's all that bad, really. It's a nice extra Tinker target early on. It would be an awful lot better if it immediately replaced itself. The competition at 6 means it's hard pressed to stack up against the other offerings, though, so I can't see running it outside of a fairly large cube.
So just a little update, I did a 6 man draft the other day where I got Staff of Nin early and built around it. I didn't go great as I drafted a little incorrectly, but every game I drew and resolved Staff I pretty much won. I even had two Staffs out in play sometimes as early as turn 4, thanks to a Phyrexian Metamorph. Generally as I was playing a lot of mana rocks and Mana Vault, I could just play Staff out on turn 3-4 if I had it, and always wanted it... I didn't have Tinker but I did have Mana Drain, even if I never got an awesome Drain off.
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So I've been pondering the Mono-Brown deck, and the Tinker-Goblin Welder decks as of late. One thing I've noticed that often times the single target removal in cube is so good that Tinkering for a big guy just isn't good enough... Even grabbing something like Sundering Titan can be equalized by a removal spell that forces you to get less value off of his land kill ability. I've also just been using Tinker more and more to bring out good utility cards, Batterskull, Smokestack, and obviously Triskelion.
The other issue is that in the Robots deck I often times just run out of cards after casting my big guy. Yes I have all the mana rocks in the world, but just like Stax I kind of vomit out my hand and sometimes don't get there because I don't have enough good draw capability in my deck. The same can be said for Green hyper ramp.
With all of this, I've actually been thinking about this card more. Yes, it's not great when you consider it as something you play later in the game, but when you can play it out on turn 4, or earlier, doesn't the extra card become very relevant in the decks that can normally just fail on drawing poorly? The ping ability is never dead, and it can really hamper a lot of cards in a Cube... I don't know, what do you guys think? I'm tempted to give this thing a shot, it seems deceptively good and can generate quite a lot of advantage. In a lot of cases, I'd be happy Tinkering this into play early instead of a big robot and gaining the advantage from it.
Edit: I'm also wondering if anyone has actually tested this card in their cube in a serious manner. I just seems like a less mana intensive Staff of Domination that can be Tinkered for profit.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
So Catastrophe, Karn, liberated, Upheaval, and overloaded Mizzium Mortars all end the game on their own?
Yes, I understand that this isn't a truly apt comparison as all of the above effect the board state more than the Staff. However, I don't really agree with this mentality that "if I pay X mana for it, it should end the game." because in reality magic has never been about that as it's intended to be an interactive game.
More so, and this is probably the important thing, is that the decks that want Staff of Nin aren't decks that really differentiate between a 4 or 6 drop when it's not a coloured spell. In other words, when I'm vomiting out my hand via Mana Dorks, ramp, or simply mana rocks, I want ways to recuperate that lost card advantage, and playing Staff on turn 3-4, and then a big guy next turn is still putting me ahead of the opponent, while not completely crippling my hand if they have an answer to said big guy.
After all, there are a lot of ways to ramp into things in a cube, whether it's mana dorks, rocks, mana drain, Tinker, Goblin Welder, Metalworker, or whatever... And there are just as many ways to answer creatures, but not necessarily artifacts. Maybe I'm just over valuing this card, but Trading Post has proven itself to be very valuable as a whole, even though it costs a decent amount of mana to utilized and doesn't seem very impressive right off the bat.
@Humpty: Well you never really spend two cards to Tinker, you spend Tinker and simply replace one card. What other target would you Tinker for that would be better against an unknown opponent? I guess Inkwell Leviathan or Blightsteel Colossal if you run those? I mean after all, is not Dark Ritual into Phyrexian Arena considered a good play? So why can't Tinker be a ritual in this case that has a little more utility to it and fetches a better Arena?
As for what other decks I'd play it in, well I think it's fine in anything that wants to run its hand out for mana. As I've mentioned above, heavy ramp decks are prone to just being dead in the water if they go Land-> Mana Dork-> Land -> Ramp Spell -> Land -> Big Guy, and that big guy gets answered, because you've just used 6 cards that they answered with 1 more or less, and Staff helps you regain that loss while being harder to answer. The same even truer for Mana rock decks that run things like Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox as they're giving up an additional card in their ramping as opposed to green ramp... But both decks can play this card out as early as other decks can play out Phyrexian Arena.
Pretty much, ya. A lot more than the Staff does.
I don't think it's worth 6 mana. And it's not worth Tinkering into play. If this was the only target in my pool, I wouldn't play a Tinker deck. And if I had this and a big robot in my deck, I'd Tinker the robot out every time.
For a lot of reasons. First, if I don't have a Tinker, I don't have to pay 6 mana for my Arena. Second, there's no condition that requires me to have a certain card in play to sacrifice in order to get my Arena out. Paying 3 mana, losing a card and sacrificing an artifact is worth it if the payoff is a Sundering Titan or Wurmcoil Engine. Not if it's a Staff of Nin.
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when i ran tinker i usually used it to grab more resilient creatures like darksteel colossus, inkwell leviathan, or sphinx of the steel wind. i agree that titan can be neutralized easily sometimes, which is part of why i stopped running it.
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