Yeah, this deck probably won't be playable, but I'm definitely going to do some testing when the set drops. I usually don't like to theorize decks before the spoiler is complete, but I think it's close enough (and this deck is closed enough) that it should be doable.
:4mana::symw: Creature - ElementalFlying
When Reveillark leaves play, return up to two target creature cards with power 2 or less from your graveyard to play.
Evoke :5mana::symw:
4/3
What you're trying to do here is get Saffi and Thermopod into play, preferably with a Soul/Essence Warden, gain a bunch of life, then pull of a Split Second Molten Disaster to kill the opponent. If you didn't have the life gainers in play, you can also use Blaze.
For anyone that doesn't see how it works, you'll get the three on the board, sacrifice Saffi, targeting Reveillark, sacrifice Reveillark to Thermopod, return Saffi with Reveillark's ability, Reveillark comes back into play, lather, rinse, repeat. You get mana x infi (or arbitrarily large).
I'm not worried about building a sideboard yet. First thing's first... get a maindeck. Here's is the little bit I have.
It would really help if there was a way to run black for discard, but it'd just stretch the mana base so much.
Any suggestions welcome, EXCEPT FOR THE ONES THAT SAY THIS WILL NOT BE COMPETITIVE.
I don't want to hear how you think this deck will fail, it's a bad combo because it's so creature based, and that it will never find a Tier 1 place in type 2. I've thought about this, and this is what forums like this and playtesting are for. Please do not trash the deck on this thread and only post criticism that will help. Thank you. -Jack
Special thanks to my friend in CO for help on the initial decklist and helping me think out and make changes to the deck. -Jack
Here are some of the decklists posted on this thread. They need testing and results. Feel free to test and post.
.::UPDATE, 1-16-08::.
We still do not have many results for this. The only reports so far are that they all tend to work more as aggressive decks than combo decks.
This deck uses the original colors of GWR, but switches the sac engine to Gargadon and the damage engine to Mogg Fanatic.
Okay, time for the U/B list. This list brought to you by the best ideas from my list and Jokeeeer's list. This deck's combo works a bit differently.
Reveillark in 'yard, sac engine online, play Body Double, copy Revi, sacrifice the win-con (a few in the deck), then BD-Revi, have the BD-Revi's ability target the win-con and BD, lather, rinse, repeat. It also includes Bonded Fetch to draw cards/pack the 'yard, and can be brought back with Revi's ability to push yourself through the deck (even draw the whole deck) to get what you need.
Minor testing has shown terrible results for this U/B build. Suggestions have been posted on page 9, and when a better list is made available, it will be posted here. -Jack
Very nice. If you're going with chaos's suggestion, better hike the Communes to 4, then.
Another option for a creature finisher is Flamkin Spitfire. As chaos said, mana is not supposed to be an issue. This just works better, in case the other guy has something weird like True Believer, or that new cleric lord. You can pick his guys off first.
Gargadon does not do what we want here because he does not produce mana. Yes, Thermopod is not a great card, but he's a combo piece and he creates mana. Gargadon works with Mogg Fanatic, but I didn't like the idea much. It is another idea, and if this version fails, it will be explored (or other people can playtest it while I work on this one), and we'll see which works best.
Yeah, the deck is much weaker without Chord of Calling, but it may still be doable. I like the idea of the Spitfire (I like the Invoker, too, but jylichan is right, Spitfire can hit everything). I actually did put two Disintegrate instead of Blaze. That was a poor oversight on my part.
Though it would be very difficult to ever actually pay for a pact, since this deck wants to go off in one turn, the Pact of Negation can help to protect on the turn it wants to win. The deck is an all-in sort of combo, so it seems worth it. Testing may prove otherwise. I think if it can be done well, running Spitfire would be better than Disintegrate, but I also think a Molten Disaster should stay in the deck, since it can be Split Second-ed.
I won't be able to properly test until Saturday (I'm a ways out of my meta and the shops in this area are highly inactive), but I'll be reporting when the time comes. Until then, anyone else's reports and ideas are welcome. Thanks for the actual input, people. -Jack
Removing a time counter from a suspended Gargadon is not part of the cost of its ability, nor does it require you to target a time counter.
So yes, a suspended Gargadon makes for a wondrously cheap sacrifice outlet. And killing via Mogg Fanatic really is more efficient than the entire infinite mana gig. Plus, it gives more justice to Reveillark, which returns 2 creatures to play (Saffi and the Fanatic). Opposed to the old Project X, which cycled only one creature at a time, thereby forcing the inclusion of Soul Warden for infinite life, this kills immediately.
Keysam also presented the option of being able to go aggro with Predator Justice. This isn't such a bad idea, but another option would be to invest the cards for that towards mana acceleration, like Birds of Paradise and Wall of Roots. The earlier you get the five mana for Reveillark, the closer you are to win. Wall of Roots also counts for passive defense.
At this point, I'm not even sure if Essence Wardens are required at all--since they certainly won't be of much help, aside from possibly subbing for Mogg Fanatic at times when you can't find him. In case of an emergency, you can just gain infinite life, then bash face with your Gargadon. Most forms of removal really can't get in your way because Saffi will make sure that Reveillark sticks around as a 4/3 beater.
So here's my option, tweaking KeySam's a little. I can't say if it's better or worse, but it focuses more on getting your combo out. I took out the aggro option. Having enough Wardens in play would be problematic for an aggro deck, in any case. Your opponent killing them won't be a problem once you find a Reveillark.
It's not that I don't like the Gargadon idea, it's just that I liked the Spitfire idea more. And you can just go infinite life with Thermopod, as well. Thermopod is a mana dump for himself if necessary, so you shouldn't be burning from it. Part of the reason that the original Project X could win despite comboing was the fact that it had cards like Loxodon Hierarch and Ghost Council of Orzhova. As we determine what cards in this deck can be cut out, we may be able to put in more aggressive and supportive cards, but for now, we need to see just how the deck runs. Theory is great, but practice is better. -Jack
The more I think about it, the better the Gargadon idea seems. I'll get a version for either side proxied and practiced ASAP. -Jack
@jylichan: Are you running Primal Command only to search a creature? (Not a bad idea, just asking.)
@chaosof99: I like where you're going with this, but pushing up the cards necessary can be... dangerous. Plus, that will allow black into the list, which I think is almost necessary to make this deck run at a high level of play. We need things like Thoughtseize and, if we run enough mana accel, Mind Shatter. I think the discard would be such a powerful part of the deck, but it could stretch the resources. Rough decklist time...
This, again, is just a rough idea. Liliana is great for tutoring, and if nothing else, she can help buffer with her discard. In the craziest of situations, she even re-sets up the combo from the 'yard. I like her. -Jack
Optional, for both: Essence Warden, Soul Warden -- provides infinite life for both combos.
We'll see that both combos require 4 components--with the only differences being:
> The gargadon is certainly cheaper than Thermopod. R vs 4R
> You need the Reveillark, Saffi, a Warden AND the Thermopod to kick off infinite life in combo A. In combo B, the Wardens substitute for Mogg Fanatic, for infinite life.
Having infinite life AND mana is a good thing, but wouldn't winning as fast as possible be better?
One more thing: it would be very bad if the Reveillark got countered. It would be worse if it got hit by Extirpate. Same goes for Saffi and Fanatic. Project X had this problem too. And ideas on how to recover from that? One would be Pull From Eternity, followed by Primal Command. Pull From Eternity also gets rid of any suspend spells, being double purpose against Lotus Bloom, Riftwing Cloudskate, and other pests.
The Gargadon version is clearly superior to the Thermopod version, but I actually like the version with black more. It takes an extra card to go off, but it has better control elements. This also gives us Extirpate against their Extirpates (along with Pull to bring out combo back in). I'd try and argue this more deeply, but I'm really tired and have to get some sleep. Keep up the good work, guys. -Jack
Like I said, tired. Doesn't need that extra card, my bad. Highway Robber is probably the best way to go there, in place of the Basal Sliver.
For nothing else, I'd consider black for Thougtseize. In any other way, it's the same deal, only with more cards to set up. If Thoughtseize was really important to make sure the combo goes off, wouldn't replacing the basic lands with Sulfurous Springs and Caves of Koilos be better?
Well, in my list, I maxed out the pains. Plus, it can take just as many card as the other combos (4) with Highway Robber, which seems solid enough to me. I only playtested one game, but the pains from land and seize can be crazy big, so that may be something worth watching out for. -Jack
I just realized... this could use Bitter Ordeal as the fourth card of the win condition. It becomes slightly less creature based, and possibly even more fun. -Jack
P.S. - @jylichan - I saw you posted over in the rulings forum about Primal Command. If you have any rules questions, I'm not a rules guru, but I know quite a bit about the rules. Feel free to ask them here and I'll see if I can answer them. -Jack
I just realized... this could use Bitter Ordeal as the fourth card of the win condition. It becomes slightly less creature based, and possibly even more fun. -Jack
That's it: drop the red.
We don't need Basal Sliver and Consume Spirit either. Highway Robber does the same thing. Between Liliana Vess and possibly Primal Command, finding specific cards shouldn't be a problem.
At BGW, this deck is getting closer to the original Project X.
Also, I had wondered about Primal Command for a while, and just forgot about it until now.
Seriously, Bitter Ordeal is fun, but I don't really see why it's needed. It basically requires the entire engine to work anyway, so why not use the slots for something that would A) get the combo components or B) accelerate mana faster?
Well, hopefully we can get the tweaks on this to make it work right. The only efficient sacrifice outlets in type two are Husk, Thermopod, and Gargadon. We've agreed that Black is the better option (with two good win-cons), so we have only Husk as the sac outlet (here's to hoping for some more sac outlets in MOR in those last thirty cards).
Do we want to choose one, or do we run both? If we run both, a 4/2 or 3/3 split seems best. I still think Pact of Negation is worth running to help protect the combo, since we plan on winning on our turn anyway. It's an all-in combo. Why not get completely all-in? Thoughtseize is an obvious inclusion, as is Liliana. We need to accel into this, and Birds of Paradise and Wall of Roots seem to be the agreed way to do that. With that accel, Mind Shatter seems like it could be worth it to help proactively protect the combo. In the fully creature based version, Primal Command can tutor up any piece needed. Would it still be worth running Commune With Nature, or are there better ways to set up the combo? Random thought, but is Garruk worth running, just for the accel? Doesn't seem like it, but just an idea. -Jack
No offense, chaos, but you really just seem to be taking a good deck and making it bad. It the deck is going to run that close to Doran, it may as well just be Doran. Trying to run too many ideas in the same deck is usually a fatal flaw that just winds up ruining the deck. I could see Reveillark in a Doran deck, since he can return some good targets, but there is no reason to try and merge this combo deck with that midrange aggro deck. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but it isn't going to work. At least, I don't think it will. Maybe you'll get it to work, but I think the straight Project X is a better idea. -Jack
I don't see anything better than digging 5 cards into the deck to get a creature card that you need for the combo. It's a good turn-one play, in case of no Birds, or even a turn-two play, with Wall of Roots. Paired with Liliana Vess, it eliminates the need to wait a turn to draw your combo piece. All this for G.
I'm still iffy about Bitter Ordeal. It would really suck to draw the second, third, and fourth copy when you're missing some other component (except for Highway Robber), and a creature tutor would have solved that.
Pact of Negation is cool, but I'm also not sure about it. With the amount of proactive disruption black supplies, I think drawing the pact earlier would be one less card in your hand. The original Project X worked without counters--how did it deal with combo interference?
@KeySam: Again, the aggro elements of the original Project X were utility creatures that helped move them towards the combo (Hierarch, Council). If there is a card that works as well as either of those in the current Standard, we should run it. The closest thing that comes to mind is Brion Stoutarm, which fits if you want to run the red version. (Heheh... fling inf/inf Husk...). I really don't like the idea of shoving this combo in an aggro or midrange deck. If we're doing that, we should just run the aggro or midrange deck. Putting a few aggro cards in this deck may not be bad, but since the deck is centered around the combo, they should be aggro AND advance towards this goal (as Hierarch and Council did originally).
@jylichan: The original Project X, from the lists I looked at shortly, didn't seem to have an approach to disruption, they just tried to combo off through it. With the current meta seemingly being dominated by B/G and B/G/W aggro and midrange decks, we could probably do the same. -Jack
What do you guys think of Cream of the Crop? I think it could help the deck to run through the library faster and therfore find the combo pieces, and if you have to go into the Rager combo (Husk, Saffi, Reveill and Rager) to draw into your win Condition, you should be able to do that in an 8th of the time and spending only an 8th of the life you would lose otherwise.
You can put that in instead of Doran. The certainly have no business being together in the same deck. :3
I previously played Project X back in standard. It's strong point was its ability to switch to an aggro stance with combo support and going to combo with aggro support. Whatever build you go for needs to have this aggro stance available.
Next, I believe the deck is better off as BG splash white mana base wise. Nantuko Husk fits a strong position in the deck providing a creature that allows you to do an infinite loop with the combo pieces. The deck will use 4 Birds of Paradise for acceleration with 4 of either Wall of Roots or Llanowar Elf for more acceleration. Llanowar elf will streamline the deck for a more consistent turn 2 Husk. Wall of roots would provide protection and acceleration against Doran decks. A thing to note is that we are now in the colors for doran and can run the card ourselves to help with the aggro stance. Choosing the Doran route then I would suggest running 4x Birds and 3x Elves. Also notice that murmuring bosk is available and we can use Yavimaya Dryad as more acceleration continuing our aggro acceleration.
The next thing to note about the old deck is the fact that it had 6-8 creature tutors that could operate at instant speed. We need replacements here. Searching gatherer and finding...
Cards of Interest:
That list is disappointing. But, I can work with this. We need aggro tempo with tricks and combo. Doran idea is out. We are going to use some cool cards like Oona's Prowler for some evasion and aggro hits. What we need are utility type creatures that can serve multiple uses. Having creatures with two or less toughness provides recursion off of one Reveillark. By doing this we can have plays that allow our Nantuko Husk to swing for large chunks of damage. By having the Reveillark in play that turn and a saffi we can swing if they block no problem. NO block we sack the Reveillark with saffi's ability having already resolved. This gets saffi back along with another creature= infinite damage. NO saffi but do have the Reveillark with the husk: sac Reveillark to Husk getting two creatures from graveyard sac the two creatures from grave and we've given Husk +6/+6 until end of turn swinging for 8 points. Worried about blocks? We'll play Evolution Charm provides mana fixing, evasion, and recursion of combo.
Okay, time for a decklist.
This is the starting deck you need to work with if you want a Project X type of deck. Things I already want to switch around depending on playtesting is adding 2-3 Grim Harvest to the maindeck for more resilience against discard and more power for nantuko husk. Wish there was room for Masked Admirers to get the card draw. I'm liking the look of shriekmaw in there especially for early attacks with nantuko husk. Evoke the maw and sac to husk swinging for 4 points. The warden is so you have the option of gaining infinite life to get you out of a bind. Warden with the Primal Command will also allow you to trump dragonstorm if they don't have the nuts on their hand. You need at least four Primal Commands seeing as they will win you the game. They have all of the utility you need to allow you to search up combo pieces while delaying the game. They will also prevent you from decking should you go off for infinite life ensuring that you will win while renewing your resources. I'm thinking that the Commune with Nature may be a good card for this setup. Seeing as we run 27 creatures we should hit a useful creature.
The reason I believe this is the route the deck should take is that it will put pressure on your opponent constantly. It can go aggro has recursion and the threat of going off in one turn. But, I need people to playtest this deck to find out. Feel free to let me know what you think.
What do you guys think about Makeshift Manique as a some of in the deck to be able to get infnite life at instant speed after getting it countered? And dont play essence warden in this deck when Darkheart Sliver and Spike feeder do exactly the same thing and are just better against aggro.
Essence warden is one drop earlier and is just as effective against aggro as Darkheart Sliver. Spike Feeder would play a better role against aggro than the Sliver or the Warden allowing a transfer of counters as well as life gain. Warden is better for my list due to the Palace and providing the chance to have it come into play untapped. Warden being less intensive on your mana allows you to combo in one turn out of no where and provides and easier build up to the combo. turn 1 acceleration turn 2 warden the saffi turn 3 husk with option to commune with nature turn 4 combo. There is a reason I chose to ignore Darkheart Sliver. Also notice how my list runs a Pendelhaven as an option to pump my 1/1 into a 2/3 which is superior to the sliver. Against the Elf deck the warden buys you crucial time necessary to combo off. A fetched Warden off of the Primal Command can be played almost immediately after resolution.
Please analyze the deck as a whole with the synergies before dismissing the warden as an option. I do agree with your idea in having doran available as you will notice in my previous post. I would however prefer it in the sideboard to provide a transformation for the deck should we need to go more aggro than combo.
Thoughts?
I played the previous Project X too, and the problem I see with this version is lack of card advantage. Having 4 combo pieces and the need to draw into them is kinda tough. Ohran Viper maybe?
Also, this deck needs an alternate win condition to comboing out. Looking at some of the lists, it seems that if the combo gets hit by Extirpate or gets disrupted in any way, there aren't enough threats to win another way.
I know why you like the Sliver and I understand the reasoning behind the choice. But, for the deck I'm playing I think I would choose either the warden or feeder. This is mainly because everything I want to play by turn 2 the lifegainer is last on my list. It's just nice to drop lifegain with saffi out there. There is a tempo to the deck that I can feel and having the sliver there would cause a slow down in turns 2 and 3. I may be wrong however and need to test the deck against other decks. I may need the sliver if I need the lifegain. But, having the warden can save me pain damage from my lands. I will have to see.
Any more thoughts on my decklist?
Edit: MonoPink:
I had that in mind which is why I have 4 cards that find the specific creatures and another 4 cards that let me dig 5 deep into my deck. Although if I go with a Doran transformation on the sideboard than I would want to include the viper for the card draw. The list I posted also has evasion available to finish off the game. Hence the aggro elements. Extirpate will always be a pain but not many decks are including it in the list due to concern for other decks and not enough space in SB. Pull from Eternity is the best bet for dealing with an extirpate and this would be a Sideboard situation where I could change the deck to Doran to negate the effects of an extirpate. Notice how Reveillark has flying. Husk is my main win in my list with the evasion being there to finish off the opponent should I fail to combo.
I'm trying to make the deck not so reliant on comboing out to win. You only need three cards to win by swinging for an arbitrarily large number with the husk. Four pieces to gain infinite life which may not be necessary. I may just as well take out the wardens to put in the vipers. You just won't be able to swing through with the husk which is where the infinite life would come in. The deck needs tweaking and playtesting though.
I know what you mean about the palace but I haven't tested yet and do not know if I can afford the life loss in comparison to the potential tempo loss. Testing will show what is needed to change.
I am also a combo enthusiast and i have piloted various combo decks, some of them experimental. This card Reveillark, has a very simple combo to which you can integrated into, Pandemonium+Reveillark+Saffi Eriksdotter. This assures an infinite combo, while dealing damage by itself.
1.)Have Saffi Eriksdotter and Pandemonium in play.
2.)Play the Reveillark, which activates the pandemonium, target itself.
3.)Sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter targeting Reveillark.
4.) Let the pandemonium resolve and Reveillark leaves play.
5.) Return saffi FIRST to the field and make it deal 1 damage with the pandemonium
6.) Return Reveillark to play
7.) repeat
PS: In addition to this combo, if you play a bunch 2 power creatures, you can get some sick engines, an infinite mulldrifter to get it going seems as a nice choice to me, a mogg war marshall is just deadly and the sun shines when you just got kick on the nots by an avanlanche rider.
It's not a Golden Jesus Cookie (with chocolate AIDS-vaccine frosting),(Note - Despite what your crafty opponents may tell you, rogue Tarmogoyfs ONLY have the creature type 'Lhurgoyf'. They will not enable them to Prowl out spells after dealing combat damage. If your opponent tries this trick on you, I suggest making his Tarmogoyf even more rogue...cover it with tasty peanut butter.)
how about maralen of the mournsong: a card in morningtide wich lets u and ur opp. tutor instead of drwaing
Maralen would probably get you into more trouble than she's worth. Your opponent would happily tutor for the inconspicuous singletons in her deck that could interfere with your combo.
BTW: Sarnath'd means having someone post the same idea that you did, only the other guy clicked Submit Reply ahead.
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Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
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Yeah, this deck probably won't be playable, but I'm definitely going to do some testing when the set drops. I usually don't like to theorize decks before the spoiler is complete, but I think it's close enough (and this deck is closed enough) that it should be doable.
The cards necessary...
Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter, Thermopod
Since Reveillark isn't on Gatherer yet...
Reveillark
:4mana::symw: Creature - ElementalFlying
When Reveillark leaves play, return up to two target creature cards with power 2 or less from your graveyard to play.
Evoke :5mana::symw:
4/3
For anyone that doesn't see how it works, you'll get the three on the board, sacrifice Saffi, targeting Reveillark, sacrifice Reveillark to Thermopod, return Saffi with Reveillark's ability, Reveillark comes back into play, lather, rinse, repeat. You get mana x infi (or arbitrarily large).
I'm not worried about building a sideboard yet. First thing's first... get a maindeck. Here's is the little bit I have.
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Brushland
4 Karplusan Forest
3 Battlefield Forge
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Forest
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Reveillark
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Thermopod
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Soul Warden
3 Essence Warden
Other (16)
3 Pact of Negation
2 Commune With Nature
2 Harmonize
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Coalition Relic
2 Molten Disaster
2 Blaze
Any suggestions welcome, EXCEPT FOR THE ONES THAT SAY THIS WILL NOT BE COMPETITIVE.
I don't want to hear how you think this deck will fail, it's a bad combo because it's so creature based, and that it will never find a Tier 1 place in type 2. I've thought about this, and this is what forums like this and playtesting are for. Please do not trash the deck on this thread and only post criticism that will help. Thank you. -Jack
Special thanks to my friend in CO for help on the initial decklist and helping me think out and make changes to the deck. -Jack
.::UPDATE, 1-16-08::.
We still do not have many results for this. The only reports so far are that they all tend to work more as aggressive decks than combo decks.
This deck uses the original colors of GWR, but switches the sac engine to Gargadon and the damage engine to Mogg Fanatic.
4 Reiveillark
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Greater Gargadon
3 Essence Warden
3 Soul Warden
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
4 Commune with Nature
4 Primal Command
Lands:
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Karplusan Forest
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Doran the Siege Tower
3 Nantuko Husk
2 Phyrexian Rager
2 Basal Sliver
2 Reveillark
4 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana Vess
3 Profane Command
2 Mind Shatter
Lands:
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Brushland
2 Caves of Koilos
1 Urborg
3 Swamp
7 Forest
4 Murmuring Bosk
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Pendelhaven
1 Plains
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nantuko Husk
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Reveillark
3 Shriekmaw
3 Yavimaya Dryad
3 Essence Warden
2 Evolution Charm
4 Primal Command
4 Commune with Nature
.::UPDATE, 1-16-08::.
Okay, time for the U/B list. This list brought to you by the best ideas from my list and Jokeeeer's list. This deck's combo works a bit differently.
4 Underground River
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Dreadship Reef
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Island
5 Swamp
Creatures (23)
4 Bonded Fetch
4 Body Double
3 Nantuko Husk
3 Reveillark
3 Mulldrifter
2 Merrow Witsniper
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Greater Gargadon
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Highway Robber
4 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Consideration
2 Damnation
2 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Prismatic Lens
2 Coalition Relic
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Vizzerdrix Count = 183, 3 in Italian, 2 Foil
Another option for a creature finisher is Flamkin Spitfire. As chaos said, mana is not supposed to be an issue. This just works better, in case the other guy has something weird like True Believer, or that new cleric lord. You can pick his guys off first.
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
Yeah, the deck is much weaker without Chord of Calling, but it may still be doable. I like the idea of the Spitfire (I like the Invoker, too, but jylichan is right, Spitfire can hit everything). I actually did put two Disintegrate instead of Blaze. That was a poor oversight on my part.
Though it would be very difficult to ever actually pay for a pact, since this deck wants to go off in one turn, the Pact of Negation can help to protect on the turn it wants to win. The deck is an all-in sort of combo, so it seems worth it. Testing may prove otherwise. I think if it can be done well, running Spitfire would be better than Disintegrate, but I also think a Molten Disaster should stay in the deck, since it can be Split Second-ed.
I won't be able to properly test until Saturday (I'm a ways out of my meta and the shops in this area are highly inactive), but I'll be reporting when the time comes. Until then, anyone else's reports and ideas are welcome. Thanks for the actual input, people. -Jack
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Vizzerdrix Count = 183, 3 in Italian, 2 Foil
Removing a time counter from a suspended Gargadon is not part of the cost of its ability, nor does it require you to target a time counter.
So yes, a suspended Gargadon makes for a wondrously cheap sacrifice outlet. And killing via Mogg Fanatic really is more efficient than the entire infinite mana gig. Plus, it gives more justice to Reveillark, which returns 2 creatures to play (Saffi and the Fanatic). Opposed to the old Project X, which cycled only one creature at a time, thereby forcing the inclusion of Soul Warden for infinite life, this kills immediately.
Keysam also presented the option of being able to go aggro with Predator Justice. This isn't such a bad idea, but another option would be to invest the cards for that towards mana acceleration, like Birds of Paradise and Wall of Roots. The earlier you get the five mana for Reveillark, the closer you are to win. Wall of Roots also counts for passive defense.
At this point, I'm not even sure if Essence Wardens are required at all--since they certainly won't be of much help, aside from possibly subbing for Mogg Fanatic at times when you can't find him. In case of an emergency, you can just gain infinite life, then bash face with your Gargadon. Most forms of removal really can't get in your way because Saffi will make sure that Reveillark sticks around as a 4/3 beater.
So here's my option, tweaking KeySam's a little. I can't say if it's better or worse, but it focuses more on getting your combo out. I took out the aggro option. Having enough Wardens in play would be problematic for an aggro deck, in any case. Your opponent killing them won't be a problem once you find a Reveillark.
4 Reiveillark
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Greater Gargadon
3 Essence Warden
3 Soul Warden
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
4 Commune with Nature
4 Primal Command
Lands:
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Karplusan Forest
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain
I'll try to test this out when I have the time. Still, a very good idea, OP.
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
The more I think about it, the better the Gargadon idea seems. I'll get a version for either side proxied and practiced ASAP. -Jack
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@chaosof99: I like where you're going with this, but pushing up the cards necessary can be... dangerous. Plus, that will allow black into the list, which I think is almost necessary to make this deck run at a high level of play. We need things like Thoughtseize and, if we run enough mana accel, Mind Shatter. I think the discard would be such a powerful part of the deck, but it could stretch the resources. Rough decklist time...
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Brushland
4 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Nantuko Husk
4 Basal Sliver
4 Saffi Eriksdotter
3 Reveillark
4 Bird of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
4 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana Vess
3 Mind Shatter
3 Commune With Nature
4 Consume Spirit
This, again, is just a rough idea. Liliana is great for tutoring, and if nothing else, she can help buffer with her discard. In the craziest of situations, she even re-sets up the combo from the 'yard. I like her. -Jack
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i took this in a completely different, and in my opinion more consistent and better direction
essentially without a ton of tutoring, the deck doesnt work.
Combo A:
Thermopod, Flamekin Spitfire, Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter
Combo B:
Greater Gargadon, Mogg Fanatic, Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter
Optional, for both: Essence Warden, Soul Warden -- provides infinite life for both combos.
We'll see that both combos require 4 components--with the only differences being:
> The gargadon is certainly cheaper than Thermopod. R vs 4R
> You need the Reveillark, Saffi, a Warden AND the Thermopod to kick off infinite life in combo A. In combo B, the Wardens substitute for Mogg Fanatic, for infinite life.
Having infinite life AND mana is a good thing, but wouldn't winning as fast as possible be better?
One more thing: it would be very bad if the Reveillark got countered. It would be worse if it got hit by Extirpate. Same goes for Saffi and Fanatic. Project X had this problem too. And ideas on how to recover from that? One would be Pull From Eternity, followed by Primal Command. Pull From Eternity also gets rid of any suspend spells, being double purpose against Lotus Bloom, Riftwing Cloudskate, and other pests.
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
It takes an extra card to go off, but it has better control elements. This also gives us Extirpate against their Extirpates (along with Pull to bring out combo back in). I'd try and argue this more deeply, but I'm really tired and have to get some sleep. Keep up the good work, guys. -JackLike I said, tired. Doesn't need that extra card, my bad. Highway Robber is probably the best way to go there, in place of the Basal Sliver.
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Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
I just realized... this could use Bitter Ordeal as the fourth card of the win condition. It becomes slightly less creature based, and possibly even more fun. -Jack
P.S. - @jylichan - I saw you posted over in the rulings forum about Primal Command. If you have any rules questions, I'm not a rules guru, but I know quite a bit about the rules. Feel free to ask them here and I'll see if I can answer them. -Jack
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That's it: drop the red.
We don't need Basal Sliver and Consume Spirit either. Highway Robber does the same thing. Between Liliana Vess and possibly Primal Command, finding specific cards shouldn't be a problem.
At BGW, this deck is getting closer to the original Project X.
Also, I had wondered about Primal Command for a while, and just forgot about it until now.
Seriously, Bitter Ordeal is fun, but I don't really see why it's needed. It basically requires the entire engine to work anyway, so why not use the slots for something that would A) get the combo components or B) accelerate mana faster?
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
Saffi Eriksdotter
Reveillark
Highway Robber -or- Bitter Ordeal
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I'm still iffy about Bitter Ordeal. It would really suck to draw the second, third, and fourth copy when you're missing some other component (except for Highway Robber), and a creature tutor would have solved that.
Pact of Negation is cool, but I'm also not sure about it. With the amount of proactive disruption black supplies, I think drawing the pact earlier would be one less card in your hand. The original Project X worked without counters--how did it deal with combo interference?
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
@jylichan: The original Project X, from the lists I looked at shortly, didn't seem to have an approach to disruption, they just tried to combo off through it. With the current meta seemingly being dominated by B/G and B/G/W aggro and midrange decks, we could probably do the same. -Jack
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You can put that in instead of Doran. The certainly have no business being together in the same deck. :3
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
Next, I believe the deck is better off as BG splash white mana base wise. Nantuko Husk fits a strong position in the deck providing a creature that allows you to do an infinite loop with the combo pieces. The deck will use 4 Birds of Paradise for acceleration with 4 of either Wall of Roots or Llanowar Elf for more acceleration. Llanowar elf will streamline the deck for a more consistent turn 2 Husk. Wall of roots would provide protection and acceleration against Doran decks. A thing to note is that we are now in the colors for doran and can run the card ourselves to help with the aggro stance. Choosing the Doran route then I would suggest running 4x Birds and 3x Elves. Also notice that murmuring bosk is available and we can use Yavimaya Dryad as more acceleration continuing our aggro acceleration.
The next thing to note about the old deck is the fact that it had 6-8 creature tutors that could operate at instant speed. We need replacements here. Searching gatherer and finding...
Cards of Interest:
That list is disappointing. But, I can work with this. We need aggro tempo with tricks and combo. Doran idea is out. We are going to use some cool cards like Oona's Prowler for some evasion and aggro hits. What we need are utility type creatures that can serve multiple uses. Having creatures with two or less toughness provides recursion off of one Reveillark. By doing this we can have plays that allow our Nantuko Husk to swing for large chunks of damage. By having the Reveillark in play that turn and a saffi we can swing if they block no problem. NO block we sack the Reveillark with saffi's ability having already resolved. This gets saffi back along with another creature= infinite damage. NO saffi but do have the Reveillark with the husk: sac Reveillark to Husk getting two creatures from graveyard sac the two creatures from grave and we've given Husk +6/+6 until end of turn swinging for 8 points. Worried about blocks? We'll play Evolution Charm provides mana fixing, evasion, and recursion of combo.
Okay, time for a decklist.
4 Murmuring Bosk
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Pendelhaven
1 Plains
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nantuko Husk
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Reveillark
3 Shriekmaw
3 Yavimaya Dryad
3 Essence Warden
2 Evolution Charm
4 Primal Command
4 Commune with Nature
This is the starting deck you need to work with if you want a Project X type of deck. Things I already want to switch around depending on playtesting is adding 2-3 Grim Harvest to the maindeck for more resilience against discard and more power for nantuko husk. Wish there was room for Masked Admirers to get the card draw. I'm liking the look of shriekmaw in there especially for early attacks with nantuko husk. Evoke the maw and sac to husk swinging for 4 points. The warden is so you have the option of gaining infinite life to get you out of a bind. Warden with the Primal Command will also allow you to trump dragonstorm if they don't have the nuts on their hand. You need at least four Primal Commands seeing as they will win you the game. They have all of the utility you need to allow you to search up combo pieces while delaying the game. They will also prevent you from decking should you go off for infinite life ensuring that you will win while renewing your resources. I'm thinking that the Commune with Nature may be a good card for this setup. Seeing as we run 27 creatures we should hit a useful creature.
The reason I believe this is the route the deck should take is that it will put pressure on your opponent constantly. It can go aggro has recursion and the threat of going off in one turn. But, I need people to playtest this deck to find out. Feel free to let me know what you think.
Essence warden is one drop earlier and is just as effective against aggro as Darkheart Sliver. Spike Feeder would play a better role against aggro than the Sliver or the Warden allowing a transfer of counters as well as life gain. Warden is better for my list due to the Palace and providing the chance to have it come into play untapped. Warden being less intensive on your mana allows you to combo in one turn out of no where and provides and easier build up to the combo. turn 1 acceleration turn 2 warden the saffi turn 3 husk with option to commune with nature turn 4 combo. There is a reason I chose to ignore Darkheart Sliver. Also notice how my list runs a Pendelhaven as an option to pump my 1/1 into a 2/3 which is superior to the sliver. Against the Elf deck the warden buys you crucial time necessary to combo off. A fetched Warden off of the Primal Command can be played almost immediately after resolution.
Please analyze the deck as a whole with the synergies before dismissing the warden as an option. I do agree with your idea in having doran available as you will notice in my previous post. I would however prefer it in the sideboard to provide a transformation for the deck should we need to go more aggro than combo.
Thoughts?
Also, this deck needs an alternate win condition to comboing out. Looking at some of the lists, it seems that if the combo gets hit by Extirpate or gets disrupted in any way, there aren't enough threats to win another way.
Anyway, just some thoughts
Any more thoughts on my decklist?
Edit: MonoPink:
I had that in mind which is why I have 4 cards that find the specific creatures and another 4 cards that let me dig 5 deep into my deck. Although if I go with a Doran transformation on the sideboard than I would want to include the viper for the card draw. The list I posted also has evasion available to finish off the game. Hence the aggro elements. Extirpate will always be a pain but not many decks are including it in the list due to concern for other decks and not enough space in SB. Pull from Eternity is the best bet for dealing with an extirpate and this would be a Sideboard situation where I could change the deck to Doran to negate the effects of an extirpate. Notice how Reveillark has flying. Husk is my main win in my list with the evasion being there to finish off the opponent should I fail to combo.
I'm trying to make the deck not so reliant on comboing out to win. You only need three cards to win by swinging for an arbitrarily large number with the husk. Four pieces to gain infinite life which may not be necessary. I may just as well take out the wardens to put in the vipers. You just won't be able to swing through with the husk which is where the infinite life would come in. The deck needs tweaking and playtesting though.
More Thoughts?
Just one thing: Gilt-Leaf Palace over Llanowar Wastes? I'm not sure if I'd appreciate missing my first-turn Birds.
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
1.)Have Saffi Eriksdotter and Pandemonium in play.
2.)Play the Reveillark, which activates the pandemonium, target itself.
3.)Sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter targeting Reveillark.
4.) Let the pandemonium resolve and Reveillark leaves play.
5.) Return saffi FIRST to the field and make it deal 1 damage with the pandemonium
6.) Return Reveillark to play
7.) repeat
PS: In addition to this combo, if you play a bunch 2 power creatures, you can get some sick engines, an infinite mulldrifter to get it going seems as a nice choice to me, a mogg war marshall is just deadly and the sun shines when you just got kick on the nots by an avanlanche rider.
Maralen would probably get you into more trouble than she's worth. Your opponent would happily tutor for the inconspicuous singletons in her deck that could interfere with your combo.
BTW: Sarnath'd means having someone post the same idea that you did, only the other guy clicked Submit Reply ahead.
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai