I think a deck designed around Death Cloud is sufficiently different from any of the zillion decks (mis)labeled as "the Rock" to warrant its own thread, and it's clearly been doing well enough for the Competitive Forum.
in the first list i think the damnations and 2 thoughtseizes should be 4 cabal therapy. the 'nations are a bit overkill with all the control in there. and 4 therapy is better then 4 thoughtseize...
in the first list i think the damnations and 2 thoughtseizes should be 4 cabal therapy. the 'nations are a bit overkill with all the control in there. and 4 therapy is better then 4 thoughtseize...
Therapy is not that good in a deck where you don't really have any creatures you want to sacrifice (except maybe garruk tokens). It's really awkward sacrificing an STE, a tarmogoyf, or a Ravenous baloth to a therapy. It's much better in decks that run birds of paradise and such.
Therapy is not that good in a deck where you don't really have any creatures you want to sacrifice (except maybe garruk tokens). It's really awkward sacrificing an STE, a tarmogoyf, or a Ravenous baloth to a therapy. It's much better in decks that run birds of paradise and such.
Well put.....There is exactly 0 creatures you would want to sacrifice in this list unless by its own ability(Tribe Elder, Baloth), which makes Therpy weaker than Thoughtseize.
Damnations are also fine because this deck is meant for an aggro meta which my friends told me, was, it was alot of RDW, and Goblins.
Only problem I see with the lists is the sideboard could use some Pithing Needles.
i think this deck needs to play a 1-of genesis or living wish with genesis in board...
just seems too good to pass up. i play the first list right now with 3 garruk and 1 genesis. with tops it doesn't really change the amount of garruks i draw a game, but it allows for some late game tech. (searchable with vess).
I used to play Death Cloud when it was in Standard and it ran Kokusho, the Evening Star as one of its primary win conditions. I was wondering why we don't do that here. I think that it still seems like it would be good to nuke them for the last 6 or 7 points with only death cloud for 1 or 2. Am I completely off here or what?
seems nice actually.. maybe a 1-of for vess or just for kicks and giggles you can run that.. also makes profane command seem much more useful when you prof command for 5 hitting opp for 10. after attacking in the air thats 15. after a few points of dmg from lnds nd such taht shud b 20 dmg...
The way it usually goes is you build up mana while disrupting their board and hand, and ideally land a planeswalker and play a death cloud, often leaving the board completely clear, only you've got a planeswalker, and, uh, they usually don't.
Some card by card synergies:
Garruk + Death Cloud - The usual configuration for the above situation, also useful for accelerating out an early death cloud
Garruk + Golgari Rot farm - This is actually just an absurd amount of mana that's pretty easy to get going
Garruk + Ravenous Baloth - If this engine gets going, it is very difficult for, say, red decks to keep up
Liliana + Death cloud - She won't be taking damage if they have no creatures to attack her, so it's not difficult to build up counters (hence denying any topdecks that they can't play immediately) and then reanimate whatever you killed with the cloud
Sensei's Divining Top + various land search and fetches - An engine to find the parts that you need, whether they be control elements, win conditions, or a death cloud
Sakura-tribe elder/other various acceleration + Death Cloud - allows you to build up enough of a resource advantage to be able to position a favorable death cloud even when you don't have a planeswalker
Golgari Rot Farm + Death Cloud - Lets you retain more mana producing capabilities with minimal card investment post-cloud
The way it usually goes is you build up mana while disrupting their board and hand, and ideally land a planeswalker and play a death cloud, often leaving the board completely clear, only you've got a planeswalker, and, uh, they usually don't.
Some card by card synergies:
Garruk + Death Cloud - The usual configuration for the above situation, also useful for accelerating out an early death cloud
Garruk + Golgari Rot farm - This is actually just an absurd amount of mana that's pretty easy to get going
Garruk + Ravenous Baloth - If this engine gets going, it is very difficult for, say, red decks to keep up
Liliana + Death cloud - She won't be taking damage if they have no creatures to attack her, so it's not difficult to build up counters (hence denying any topdecks that they can't play immediately) and then reanimate whatever you killed with the cloud
Sensei's Divining Top + various land search and fetches - An engine to find the parts that you need, whether they be control elements, win conditions, or a death cloud
Sakura-tribe elder/other various acceleration + Death Cloud - allows you to build up enough of a resource advantage to be able to position a favorable death cloud even when you don't have a planeswalker
Golgari Rot Farm + Death Cloud - Lets you retain more mana producing capabilities with minimal card investment post-cloud
Thanks BweeBwee, I was going to ask the exact same question but this clears a lot up for me. Are there tempo problems for playing so many Rot Farms? I assume that this deck style is a lot more control-ish than Rock.
As was pointed out by a friend and tested, I've moved Liliana to the sideboard. She's not really very good except in control matchups and I found myself siding her out for more relevant cards often. I'm not positive if it's correct, but I think it's worth trying to fit more control elements in the main deck. I might end up putting her back in, but it's a thought.
Let's take a look at why Bob is bad in this deck. Lands 23= 0 damage Cards that cost 1=7 Cards that cost 2=11 Cards that cost 3=6 Cards that cost 4+ =13. That's more cards that cost 4+ than any other cost in the deck. If you are damaging yourself with fetch and shocklands and losing the life from death cloud you will be taking too much damage and aggro will punch you in the face. There is just too high of a risk of flipping a card that costs 4+ and taking that much damage every turn. If you add the DC then you will be very reliant on SDT to save you from killing yourself.
The profane commands may become Deathmarks, the Ofalsnouts may become Extirpates, and I am still looking for weak spots where I can fit in the fourth garruk, a couple of Search for tomorrows, and maybe one or two more duress between the main and side.
why are you playing ancient grudge? affinity is already an good match-up because of deed and smothers.. imo those should be krosan grips or 1 duress and 1 genesis or a 3rd pate...
EDIT: if any splash is to be put in then white for vindicate...
Just wondering. Why are most of these decks running only 3 copies of cards that are extremely critical in a lot of matchups (mostly Baltoh, Top, P-Deed, and the Cloud itself)? Isn't it better to run mostly 4-ofs (excpet possibly the Cloud which I could see only running 3) and then fill the rest in with 5-8 type cards like duress, etc, and other cards that are just good (vess).
My team has been working on a Death Cloud deck. We cut Liliana right away (this was 2 weeks ago, long before these PTQ results came in), but we're trying to fit her back in. I like Search for Tomorrow, which the second list runs, because 4 Tribe Elders just never feels like enough land searching for me. The T2 versions of this deck back in the day ran Kodama's Reach also -- while I think that's too slow, I like having a land searcher besides just the Elder. SfT is also another shuffle effect.
We've found that 4 Tops is much, much better than just running 3. It does so much to set up your draws, and it's important in a lot of matchups. ONe thing we've been running that I don't see in the original lists is Treetop Village. If you have 2-3 Villages, then you can have a built-in attacker after you Death Cloud. Your opponent will need to topdeck a creature, while you can just animate a land and swing.
My team has been working on a Cloud deck. We cut Liliana right away (this was 2 weeks ago, long before these PTQ results came in), but we're trying to fit her back in. I like Search for Tomorrow, which the second list runs, because 4 Tribe Elders just never feels like enough land searching for me. The T2 versions of this deck back in the day ran Kodama's Reach also -- while I think that's too slow, I like having a land searcher besides just the Elder. SfT is also another shuffle effect.
We've found that 4 Tops is much, much better than just running 3. It does so much to set up your draws, and it's important in a lot of matchups. ONe thing we've been running that I don't see in the original lists is Treetop Village. If you have 2-3 Villages, then you can have a built-in attacker after you Cloud. Your opponent will need to topdeck a creature, while you can just animate a land and swing.
Could you post your build? I have come to most of those conclusions as well. The only thing that I didn't like sometimes with TTV is that 4 Bounce Lands + 2 Man Lands don't work well together, especially when you want to try and play cards every turn. If you can't post your deck I understand, but how many Clouds are you running? I just think it is silly to only run 3 which is why I'm playing the full set of four.
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1st Place: Akil Steele
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
3 Liliana Vess
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Death Cloud
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
5 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Golgari Rot Farm
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
2 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Viridian Zealot
2 Damnation
1 Smother
3 Duress
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Offalsnout
5th-8th: Zach Fowler
3 Death Cloud
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Duress
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana Vess
2 Smother
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Swamp
4 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Golgari Rot Farm
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Tainted Wood
3 Deathmark
2 Primal Command
2 Offalsnout
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Indrik Stomphowler
2 Damnation
I think a deck designed around Death Cloud is sufficiently different from any of the zillion decks (mis)labeled as "the Rock" to warrant its own thread, and it's clearly been doing well enough for the Competitive Forum.
My Eternal Cube on CubeTutor| |My Reject Rare Cube on CubeTutor| |My Peasant Cube on CubeTutor
I used to write for MTGS, including Cranial Insertion and cube articles. Good on you if you can find those after the upgrade.
Therapy is not that good in a deck where you don't really have any creatures you want to sacrifice (except maybe garruk tokens). It's really awkward sacrificing an STE, a tarmogoyf, or a Ravenous baloth to a therapy. It's much better in decks that run birds of paradise and such.
Well put.....There is exactly 0 creatures you would want to sacrifice in this list unless by its own ability(Tribe Elder, Baloth), which makes Therpy weaker than Thoughtseize.
Damnations are also fine because this deck is meant for an aggro meta which my friends told me, was, it was alot of RDW, and Goblins.
Only problem I see with the lists is the sideboard could use some Pithing Needles.
Offalsnout can remove a Dread Return and Bridges in one shot, Extirpate and Coffin Purge cannot.
i think this deck needs to play a 1-of genesis or living wish with genesis in board...
just seems too good to pass up. i play the first list right now with 3 garruk and 1 genesis. with tops it doesn't really change the amount of garruks i draw a game, but it allows for some late game tech. (searchable with vess).
Agreed, I believe it could provide for some insane late game, I think the decklist should definately adopt it. Good call guys.
Thanks to Passturn for Sig
The way it usually goes is you build up mana while disrupting their board and hand, and ideally land a planeswalker and play a death cloud, often leaving the board completely clear, only you've got a planeswalker, and, uh, they usually don't.
Some card by card synergies:
Garruk + Death Cloud - The usual configuration for the above situation, also useful for accelerating out an early death cloud
Garruk + Golgari Rot farm - This is actually just an absurd amount of mana that's pretty easy to get going
Garruk + Ravenous Baloth - If this engine gets going, it is very difficult for, say, red decks to keep up
Liliana + Death cloud - She won't be taking damage if they have no creatures to attack her, so it's not difficult to build up counters (hence denying any topdecks that they can't play immediately) and then reanimate whatever you killed with the cloud
Sensei's Divining Top + various land search and fetches - An engine to find the parts that you need, whether they be control elements, win conditions, or a death cloud
Sakura-tribe elder/other various acceleration + Death Cloud - allows you to build up enough of a resource advantage to be able to position a favorable death cloud even when you don't have a planeswalker
Golgari Rot Farm + Death Cloud - Lets you retain more mana producing capabilities with minimal card investment post-cloud
Thanks BweeBwee, I was going to ask the exact same question but this clears a lot up for me. Are there tempo problems for playing so many Rot Farms? I assume that this deck style is a lot more control-ish than Rock.
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Ravenous Baloth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Duress (Tseize 5-6)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smother
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Genesis (Testing)
4 Death Cloud
2 Liliana Vess (Had 3. Cut 1 for Genesis)
4 Polluted Delta (Any B fetch works)
3 Windswept Heath (Any G fetch works)
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Golgari Rot Farm (Fiddling with numbers)
5 Swamp
5 Forest
2 Duress (blue decks/combo)
4 Leyline (Dredge/Bubble Hulk)
3 Offalsnout (maybe Extirpates which doubles vs Hulk)
2 Indrik Stomphowler (Ideal/NLBlue)
2 Primal Command (mostly aggro/NLBlue)
2 Damnation (maybe Deathmark)
I like this deck a lot. Any suggestions from more experienced Extended players would mean a lot. Thanks.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Ravenous Baloth
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Death Cloud
2 Damnation
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Smother
2 Putrefy
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Duress
3 Indrik Stomphowler
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Offalsnout
2 Extirpate
3 Liliana Vess
As was pointed out by a friend and tested, I've moved Liliana to the sideboard. She's not really very good except in control matchups and I found myself siding her out for more relevant cards often. I'm not positive if it's correct, but I think it's worth trying to fit more control elements in the main deck. I might end up putting her back in, but it's a thought.
Thanks to Passturn for Sig
4 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
3 Golgari Rot-Farm
// Creatures
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Ravenous Baloth
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
3 Sensei's Divining Top
// Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
// Planeswalkers
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Liliana Vess
// Spells
3 Death Cloud
3 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ofalsnout
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Indrik Stomphowler
2 Primal Command
3 Profane Command
The profane commands may become Deathmarks, the Ofalsnouts may become Extirpates, and I am still looking for weak spots where I can fit in the fourth garruk, a couple of Search for tomorrows, and maybe one or two more duress between the main and side.
Thoughts/Comments?
EDIT: if any splash is to be put in then white for vindicate...
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We've found that 4 Tops is much, much better than just running 3. It does so much to set up your draws, and it's important in a lot of matchups. ONe thing we've been running that I don't see in the original lists is Treetop Village. If you have 2-3 Villages, then you can have a built-in attacker after you Death Cloud. Your opponent will need to topdeck a creature, while you can just animate a land and swing.
My Eternal Cube on CubeTutor| |My Reject Rare Cube on CubeTutor| |My Peasant Cube on CubeTutor
I used to write for MTGS, including Cranial Insertion and cube articles. Good on you if you can find those after the upgrade.
Could you post your build? I have come to most of those conclusions as well. The only thing that I didn't like sometimes with TTV is that 4 Bounce Lands + 2 Man Lands don't work well together, especially when you want to try and play cards every turn. If you can't post your deck I understand, but how many Clouds are you running? I just think it is silly to only run 3 which is why I'm playing the full set of four.