Magic 101: Triggered Abilities

[Yare]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Magic 101: Triggered Abilities. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[Noman Peopled]

Great article for beginners looking to advance. A bit convoluted maybe, but then if you want to play a game with simple rules, you should play something else.
I really like the detailed stacks (especially the top/bottom part) and the questions with spoilered answers at the end.

A point that might not have been sufficiently covered (or maybe it's just overkill): if an ability triggers during the resolution of a spell, it has to wait until a player would receive priority to be put on the stack. If I control two abilities that trigger off two separate conditions during a spell's resolution (meaning one triggered "first" chronologically), they are still put on the stack at the same time and I can choose how to stack them (APNAP applies of course).

And of course, while playing a spell is not meant to be covered by the article, it's very important to know that a spell or ability counts as played only if all its costs have been paid and all of its targets are legal (duh). That means that triggers like Chalice's or Counterbalance's trigger before the resolution of a spell but after it has been fully placed on the stack and therefore are put on top of the spell on the stack - it's obvious with Chalice because it wouldn't work otherwise, but perhaps less so with Standstill or Enchantress. It's easy to see how drawing three cards off Standstill is better before the offending spell resolves than after.
(Also, an ability that triggers of a spell being played always resolves before an ability that triggers off something the spell does.)

Weird things can happen if abilities are triggered by conditions that don't use the stack. You can, for example, bounce City of Traitors with a Lair because playing a land doesn't use the stack (top/bounce ability/sacrifice ability/bottom).



Maybe a few pointers for the eager readers: printed wordings using "during your upkeep" are pretty much always triggered abilities (unless there's a ":" in there). Many older cards also use "if" instead of "when/whenever/at". If they use the word "instead" somewhere as well, they are replacement effects; if not, they are most likely triggered abilities according to their Oracle wording.

[volcom]

Great article for intermediate players like myself! I really learned a lot of new tricks from this article. I don't think it was too advanced, as far as I'm concerned you could have included even more technicalities and special exceptions. The better you know the rules, the more you can use them to your advantage when playing, and the lesser chance you have getting screwed over by your opponent!

[Penumbra Leprechaun]

I really liked the article. Hopefully this will come in handy for newer players, as even in T2 I don't like being forced to explain why, for example, Militia's Pride has a triggered ability, much less(at last count) on average 5 times each match, which just seems egregious.

[Yare]

I'm glad you guys like the article. The next one won't be published for about two months (because of this "exam" thing I have to do). However, I don't have any ideas on what I should write about next. If any of you guys have a suggestion, I'd love to hear it.

[bateleur]

Originally Posted by Yare

If any of you guys have a suggestion, I'd love to hear it.

Power/toughness altering effects.

For example: I have two Riptide Manglers in play, a Night of Souls' Betrayal and an Anthem of Rakdos. Both creatures attack, then in response to the Anthem trigger my opponent flashes out a Crookclaw Transmuter, targetting one of the Manglers with the triggered ability. I play Blades of Velis Vel targetting my two Manglers in response. Once blockers are declared (none) I then activate the ability on the Mangler with the lower power, targetting the other one. Assuming I don't have Hellbent, how much damage do they deal in total?

I can work out the answer to this myself, but only by using the complex and messy rules for layers. How can this sort of thing be explained to a player with less rules experience? I think that might make a useful article.

[Thallid Ice Cream Man]

Originally Posted by bateleur

Power/toughness altering effects.

For example: I have two Riptide Manglers in play, a Night of Souls' Betrayal and an Anthem of Rakdos. Both creatures attack, then in response to the Anthem trigger my opponent flashes out a Crookclaw Transmuter, targetting one of the Manglers with the triggered ability. I play Blades of Velis Vel targetting my two Manglers in response. Once blockers are declared (none) I then activate the ability on the Mangler with the lower power, targetting the other one. Assuming I don't have Hellbent, how much damage do they deal in total?

I can work out the answer to this myself, but only by using the complex and messy rules for layers. How can this sort of thing be explained to a player with less rules experience? I think that might make a useful article.

8? By my estimation the Manglers are 4/1 and 4/2 after all that has happened. I'm probably wrong.

I know enough about the layering system to know that it's involved here, but not enough to know how. I thought I knew a lot because I caught the fact that the Manglers were sort of -1/2 but really 0/2 when they attacked...

Please do write about p/t in the next article. It's just complicated enough to form a good-sized article.

[rrwoods]

Originally Posted by The Article

A triggered ability will always have “when, whenever, or at” at the beginning of it. If it doesn’t have one of those three words, it isn’t a triggered ability (unless it’s some special keyword ability).

Unless it's delayed.

[Penumbra Leprechaun]

Originally Posted by Thallid Ice Cream Man

8? By my estimation the Manglers are 4/1 and 4/2 after all that has happened. I'm probably wrong.

I know enough about the layering system to know that it's involved here, but not enough to know how. I thought I knew a lot because I caught the fact that the Manglers were sort of -1/2 but really 0/2 when they attacked...

Please do write about p/t in the next article. It's just complicated enough to form a good-sized article.

That's the same answer I'm getting; 4/1 (that was targeted by the Crookclaw Transmuter) and 4/2. And the Manglers aren't 0/2 when attacking; the game just sees a creature with power 0 or less trying to deal combat damage and views the amount of damage dealt as zero by definition.

Power/toughness would be a fairly interesting topic, I think. Personally, I'd rather see one on Banding, but I won't ask for it, because that would be horrible to have to write.

[armada]

Oh man, I couldn't work out that Riptide Mangler conundrum with any degree of certainty. It's not 6 or possibly 5 damage total, is it? I've just got this idea in my head from previous brushes with layers that it's easiest to leave p/t swapping effects till last when working out how big everything ends up.

[Yare]

I think that the P/T determination article would be good. That being said, I have to admit that when I see one of those problems in the rulings forum, I run the other way because I don't understand all the rules myself. Consequently, I might have difficulty being really effective in writing an article on this because I haven't done it a million times. So, on the one hand I myself would learn, but on the other hand, it might not be as good because I would have to learn.

So, in summary, I'll keep it in mind. If you guys want to throw your support to that idea or pitch another idea, please post it here. Thanks for your feedback.

[armada]

Look, I do have a compulsion to try and work this out, even if it's mostly off topic here. Here is the order of the layers, ripped out of an article I googled for:

(6a) P/T CSAs—More on what a CSA (Characteristic Setting Ability) is in a minute (see 6c below). Examples: Maro, Nightmare.
(6b) P/T: Changes from resolving spells, triggered abilities, or activated abilities and changes from static abilities that set the P/T to specific number—Note this includes all P/T effects from things that resolve, regardless of what it does to the actual P/T. The "setting only" clause just applies to static abilities Examples: Giant Growth, Basking Rootwalla, Humility.
(6c) P/T: Changes from counters—Nothing too special here. That +1/+1 counter that's sitting on your Arcbound Ravager? Apply the +1/+1 here.
(6d) P/T: Changes from static abilities that adjust the power/toughness by increasing or decreasing them by a certain amount, not setting them to a number—Note the contrast here against 6b. Examples: Bonesplitter, Castle.
(6e) P/T: Switching—Apply switching of power and toughness here. Examples: Aquamoeba, Strange Inversion.

So Riptide Mangler's activated ability applies in 6b. So does Anthem of Rakdos and Blades of Velis Vel. Night of Souls' Betrayal is inside 6d, and then of course Crookclaw Transmuter falls in the most terrifying layer of all, 6e.

In the precombat main phase, we have 2 Riptide Manglers, who are -1/2 (6d Night of Souls' Betrayal).
The Manglers attack, and Anthem triggers.
Crookclaw Transmuter is played in response.
Blades of Velis Vel is played in response and resolves. The Manglers are 1/2. (0/3 + 2/0 + -1/-1)
Crookclaw Transmuter resolves. One Mangler is 2/1. (P/T swap applied last.)
Anthem resolves. Both Manglers are now 3/2 up until layer 6d. Due to the Transmute effect in layer 6e, one of the Manglers is now 2/3.

Now Bateleur activates the ability of the 2/3 (lower powered, transmuted) Mangler, aiming to give it the power of the 3/2 one. This resolves and so the following stuff is affecting it:

Base power: 0/3
Layer 6b: +2/0 (Blades) +2/0 (Anthem) set Power to 3 (Mangler effect) - I'm assuming that these apply in timestamp order, and so we end up with a 3/3 Mangler.
Layer 6d: -1/-1 (Night) - 2/2 Mangler
Layer 6e: swap P/T (Crookclaw) - 2/2 Mangler

So by my calculations the Manglers deal 5 damage total, and activating the Mangler ability ends up just reducing its Toughness by 1!!!

Did I make a mistake in my calculations anywhere along the line here?

[platinummyr]

Originally Posted by armada

Look, I do have a compulsion to try and work this out, even if it's mostly off topic here. Here is the order of the layers, ripped out of an article I googled for:

(6a) P/T CSAs—More on what a CSA (Characteristic Setting Ability) is in a minute (see 6c below). Examples: Maro, Nightmare.
(6b) P/T: Changes from resolving spells, triggered abilities, or activated abilities and changes from static abilities that set the P/T to specific number—Note this includes all P/T effects from things that resolve, regardless of what it does to the actual P/T. The "setting only" clause just applies to static abilities Examples: Giant Growth, Basking Rootwalla, Humility.
(6c) P/T: Changes from counters—Nothing too special here. That +1/+1 counter that's sitting on your Arcbound Ravager? Apply the +1/+1 here.
(6d) P/T: Changes from static abilities that adjust the power/toughness by increasing or decreasing them by a certain amount, not setting them to a number—Note the contrast here against 6b. Examples: Bonesplitter, Castle.
(6e) P/T: Switching—Apply switching of power and toughness here. Examples: Aquamoeba, Strange Inversion.

So Riptide Mangler's activated ability applies in 6b. So does Anthem of Rakdos and Blades of Velis Vel. Night of Souls' Betrayal is inside 6d, and then of course Crookclaw Transmuter falls in the most terrifying layer of all, 6e.

In the precombat main phase, we have 2 Riptide Manglers, who are -1/2 (6d Night of Souls' Betrayal).
The Manglers attack, and Anthem triggers.
Crookclaw Transmuter is played in response.
Blades of Velis Vel is played in response and resolves. The Manglers are 1/2. (0/3 + 2/0 + -1/-1)
Crookclaw Transmuter resolves. One Mangler is 2/1. (P/T swap applied last.)
Anthem resolves. Both Manglers are now 3/2 up until layer 6d. Due to the Transmute effect in layer 6e, one of the Manglers is now 2/3.

Now Bateleur activates the ability of the 2/3 (lower powered, transmuted) Mangler, aiming to give it the power of the 3/2 one. This resolves and so the following stuff is affecting it:

Base power: 0/3
Layer 6b: +2/0 (Blades) +2/0 (Anthem) set Power to 3 (Mangler effect) - I'm assuming that these apply in timestamp order, and so we end up with a 3/3 Mangler.
Layer 6d: -1/-1 (Night) - 2/2 Mangler
Layer 6e: swap P/T (Crookclaw) - 2/2 Mangler

So by my calculations the Manglers deal 5 damage total, and activating the Mangler ability ends up just reducing its Toughness by 1!!!

Did I make a mistake in my calculations anywhere along the line here?

Actually, the layers only matter for continuous effects, or effects which are applied at the same time, if I am correct...

That means, you have two 0/3's which are -1/2's because of the night thing, right?

They attack, so the anthem triggers.

In response to the triggers, the P/T switcher is played.

In response, we make the creatures into 1/2's by using blades

Now transmute from the creature resolves, turning one of the things into a 2/1

then the anthem effect resolves, turning them into a 4/1 and a 3/2 respectively.

Finally, we change the one's power to the other, making it a 4/2..

I believe I may have easily screwed up here because of the CONTINUOUS effect of the night enchantment, but I am not aware...

I think I need an article on this one myself

[Hippy]

I enjoyed the article I am a fairly new player but am quickly advancing my knowledge of the more complicated inner workings of MTG. This article provided concise examples and explained how to resolve specific problems in detail. Good descriptions of situational play for examples which were also well chosen and entertaining in a way. I will look forward to your next article.
As a suggestion on a next article might I suggest (since it will be after Shadowmoor release) that you do an Article on the Tap/Untap abilities and restrictions.

[IOWAPA]

Kudos on another good article. Keep them coming. Thanks.