Cranial Insertion: Order of Operations

[Woapalanne]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Cranial Insertion: Order of Operations. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[Kandar]

I don't get this part, wouldn't timestamps matter here?

Example: Titania controls Titania's Song (she hasn't sold out yet) and Mycosynth Lattice. Since the Lattice causes the Song to apply to exciting new permanents that it wouldn't otherwise apply to, the Song's effect is not applied until after the Lattice's effect.

Since the Song is either becoming an artifact then removing it's own ability (and the Latice's), or the Latice never works since the song shuts it off. I'm confused on which is right and why?

[Woapalanne]

Nope, the article's right. "Loses abilities" is layer 6, but "you is artifact" is layer 4. Layer 4 effects will always apply before any layer 6 effects.

[zweet]

Why is an example with Invigorate put under 7b and not under 7c? Instant P/T pumps belong under 7c now, right?

[bateleur]

Originally Posted by zweet

Why is an example with Invigorate put under 7b and not under 7c? Instant P/T pumps belong under 7c now, right?

That's exactly what that example is about: the fact that Humble applies first, then Invigorate.

[zweet]

Yes, but my point is that under 7c there are no given examples with instant effects that change P/T, and bearing in mind that under the old layer system those were together with CDAs P/T setters (which are now in 7b), it might be confusing for someone to correctly place them in coresponding layer.

[Woapalanne]

So your concern is that if someone fails to read the article, they will become confused?

Some bits are left in odd places to highlight the changes, but I tried not to highlight them too much so the article can also work for people who did not know the old system.

[Naz]

Example: Charlie activates Aquamoeba's power-and-toughness switch ability. After it resolves, Grahame splashes it with Torpor Dust. Even though Torpor Dust resolved last, it must be applied before the switch: Aquamoeba is a -2/3 creature, then a 3/-2, and then it dies a messy death.

This is so incredibly counter-intuitive.

So let's say you attack with a aquamoeba who switched power and toughness, that would make him a 3/1 and then you play a Colossal Might on it, it will becomes a 5/5? That's seriously weird. What was the reasoning for making the rules like this (it used to be different right?).

[Woapalanne]

Originally Posted by Naz

This is so incredibly counter-intuitive.

So let's say you attack with a aquamoeba who switched power and toughness, that would make him a 3/1 and then you play a Colossal Might on it, it will becomes a 5/5? That's seriously weird. What was the reasoning for making the rules like this (it used to be different right?).

Nope, this is how it has always been ever since, I believe, the 8ED layer system. Definitely since before the M10 update. The layer system has undergone many tweaks since its birth, but I'm pretty sure that for most of it switches *always* came last, since that's what it says on the earlier cards.

[doctor_why]

Thanks again Eli!

Eli is the coolest cat. Writing articles for Salvation and helping 'turnip heads' like me on 'other websites....

Eli rules!

[pstmdrn]

Dye it, mark it, paint it, stain it, lace it, dark it, wisp, repaint it

I loved his clever nod to Daft Punk.

[Woapalanne]

The article is a hurricane of clever nods, obscure/unobscure references, and puns.

Fun fact: I'm going to be appearing at ComicCon with my Tucson judge staff as well as the awesome San Diego regulars, head judging the Super FNM on Friday night. Moko will be with me while I'm off duty should anyone feel a desire to meet and worship our chimp.

[Zebi]

I loved the random Oberon/Puck/Titania bit.

Obscure Shakespeare references for the win.

But on topic, this is a really good article as a completely casual player who didn't know this even existed. I mean, it's still confusing and to be completely honest, a mess of words to me - but I'm learning. Thanks

[schrecklich]

So what happens if Humility and Opalescence enter the battlefield at the same time (because I played Open the Vaults for example)?

[Binary]

Originally Posted by schrecklich

So what happens if Humility and Opalescence enter the battlefield at the same time (because I played Open the Vaults for example)?

From the CompRules:

612.6e If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, the active player determines their timestamp order at that time.