You bring up an excellent point, luminum. I had completely forgotten the existance of Spriggans in SHA and I discredited Redcaps due to there being only a single card. Also, I'm so used to Goblins having so many different names and breeds.
When you put it that way, I wouldn't be surprised if Selkies are Merfolk. I will, however, be disappointed.
The biggest reason for my disappointment will be the ability to play Merfolk in a Mono:symg: deck. Yes, a deck will all forests and no water.
At least the plains of LOR had streams running through them to justify the flavor of mono:symw: Merfolk.
Well those same streams still exist in Shadowmoor... apparently large areas are also flooded, so I don't think it's too hard to believe forests bordering a river or at least partially flooded (not as much as Rootwater/Skyshroud, but similar).
I was in the shower and I mulled this over (Yes, I know, you don't have to tell me) and I've come up with more support for my side.
You say WotC tries to prevent clutter by making unnecessary creature types unified under one creature type, even at the expense of (a little) flavor.
I have one example of a creature type that fights against your "WotC likes to de-clutter" argument.
The creature type support my argument (drum roll please): Weird!!!!
Yes, Weirds. Everyone's favorite creature type.
There are only THREE of these in existance, they are all in the same block, and they could have easily been elementals.
Why weren't they made elementals? Because they belong to the Izzet guild and WotC really wanted to show the flavor of the Izzet's creative nature. The Izzet are so creative, they created a new creature type!
So... if they only made 3 Weirds. What's wrong with a few Selkies?
Nothing, according to the printing done by WotC in the past.
Edit: Also, aren't Weirds being classified as Elementals more flavorfully justifiable than Selkies as Merfolk?
Not that I disagree with you, I'm pretty sure there will be Selkie creatures in Eventide. However, I think you're mistaken if you believe Selkies will be the *only* creatures in Eventide.
Look at Shadowmoor for an example. G/W was mostly Elves (9) but it also contained an Ouphe, a Spirit, an Elemental, and a Treefolk. I would expect Eventide to push this even further as we move farther away from the tribal block.
My bad there. I got locked into the debate so much, it ended up as a "selkies or none at all" thing in my head. Yes, there's the evil, devouring Shadowmoor changeling known as Shorecrasher Mimic as the 1st of Eventide's creatures.
Nevertheless, the dispute and wager is whether creature Selkies will have the Merfolk Creature Type. I say "Yes", arsenick_wrath says "No."
In all honesty, we're deadlocked now- he's got his example and history, I've got mine. His weirds retort is running up against luminum can's spriggans and redcaps.
The :symwb::symwb::symwb: creature has already been revealed. It won't be long until we see our first creature card selkie and settle this debate.
Okay, Merfolk don't need anything can give them, why? Because everything creates, should also be able to be in Mono:symu:. There is nothing stopping them from making a mono:symu: Merfolk with Shroud.
I agree that having Selkies would eat up design space for Merfolk, but I can turn that argument the other direction: Why should old tribes eat up design space for new tribes?
Merfolk are not in SHA. Maybe on a different plane, they could ALL be on a different plane.
So... I guess what I'm trying to say is:
Selkies don't eat up any Merfolk design space because Merfolk aren't in whereas at least one Selkie is known to be.
You're missing two things:
1. Hybrids must only have what their parent colors have, but they also focus very well on those abilities. That's why the HHH cycle of Shadowmoor (and many other Hybrids from even Ravnica block) produced incredibly efficient mana-cost-to-ability-&-power/toughness creatures. The weakest perhaps is the :symub:- 3 mana for a 3/2 flyer- but that's pretty good for that converted casting cost compared to most of its predecessors.
A can have Shroud much, much easier than a mono :symu:.
2. Even more basic than that, what's the difference between a and merfolk? Trick question: the former is also :symg:! The game has always looked into examining a creature's colors, and NOW even more so, even without a "color matters" theme in the design.
The very act of making a merfolk and not just itself opens up design space. And MaRo and the rest of the gang are not going to shy away from that, especially where it opens gameplay options.
The very act of making a merfolk and not just itself opens up design space.
MaRo said that one of the biggest things that a new designer does wrong is doing something just because you can, not because you should.
I think this is an example of that. Just because they can open up design space by making Merfolk doesn't mean they need to do it.
MaRo said that one of the biggest things that a new designer does wrong is doing something just because you can, not because you should.
I think this is an example of that. Just because they can open up design space by making Merfolk doesn't mean they need to do it.
I don't believe this would be the case. An amateut design mistake would be to do something new just for the sake of being new. Expanding a creature type into a new color is not being new for the sake of being new. Lorwyn expanded elves and faeries into black, treefolk into black and white, goblins into primarily black, merfolk into white, etc. Shadowmoor expanded Goblins into green, merfolk into black, giants and goblins into green, faeries into white, etc. After all of that, why is expanding Merfolk into Green such a big deal? What is worse about a green merfolk than a white merfolk? Or a green goblin? or a black elf?
i think that the r/u tribe will be faeries. i saw a picture of a seemingly red/blue aligned wingless faerie riding a flying bug with red and blue tribal paint on the bug's face and the faerie's shield.
In the shadowplay, acting out your
own death, knowing no more
As the assassins all grouped
in four lines,
Dancing on the floor,
And with cold steel, odour on their bodies,
made a move to connect
I could only stare in disbelief
as the crowds all left
I think the point of new creature types isn't just so we can have new creature types; I think it's a conscious decision to move away from LOR's creature types more and more with each block.
MaRo said that one of the biggest things that a new designer does wrong is doing something just because you can, not because you should.
I think this is an example of that. Just because they can open up design space by making Merfolk doesn't mean they need to do it.
You do realize you just said "they shouldn't open up design space"?
This isn't a case of opening up design space because you can. It's opening design space for the sake of producing new cards and exploring new mechanics- something they do each time they come up with a new expansion- especially for the Merfolk tribe which trails right after Lorwyn and has a long place in Magic history.
For example, this isn't the first time they did hybrid mana- yet this is worlds away from Ravnica in both flavor and mechanics. They're exploring what else you can do with hyrbrid cards. Honestly, I loved that flow-chart thingy they have where they branch out and link together the various themes and goals of Shadowmoor block. I honestly love the "color matters", "reward playing mono/dual colors" parts of this block. Much of what we're seeing now we didn't see when hybrid first made its debut.
Of course, they have to be smart about it. The last thing they need is to make new designs that are ultimately dead ends. They have to ensure that whatever works now can work with the least amount of conflict or rules change with cards from the past and in the future.
It's tough, but that's what consistency in design is about. They have to stick to Merfolk.
Probably why Spriggans and Redcaps are gobbos, as luminum can pointed out.
On another note, quoting you quoting MaRo:
Wouldn't making Selkies their own creature type also be doing it simply because they can?
Instead, they coulld follow current design by making them part of the established Merfolk tribe, expanding on Merfolk's stuff.
On another note, quoting you quoting MaRo:
Wouldn't making Selkies their own creature type also be doing it simply because they can?
Instead, they coulld follow current design by making them part of the established Merfolk tribe, expanding on Merfolk's stuff.
You forget that creating new creature types can also open up design space because those creature types can get their own identity, flavorfully as well as mechanically. Like how the viashino are very different from the goblins and the goblins and viashino from the kobolds.
Keep in mind, Kobolds and Goblins as they've been depicted in Magic art are very similar. One look at kobolds of kher keep could tell you that. But mechanically, as well as flavorfully, they're worlds apart.
Oh man, what a cheap, cheap shot. It's like saying Slivers were part of Lorwyn- which technically they are, but only by virtue of changelings being everything else as well.
But to address that seriously: that's by virtue of the Changeling ability. Should any effect cause a changeling to lose all its abilities, it would cease being a Merfolk/Elf/Kithkin/Wizard/Rogue/Eye/Horror/Kavu/etc.
But, interestingly, it would remain a Shapeshifter. And Mistform Ultimus would similarly become just an Illusion.
Also, given the Shadowmoor Changelings (Mimics): that's one of the important mechanical differences between them and their Shadowmoor versions: no changeling ability.
---
@ DarkwaterElemental: I'm still waiting for your response to my wager. Put your pride where your mouth is.
Actually, it remains all creature types.
Here's from the FAQ of Mistform Ultimus:
Quote from FAQ of Mistform Ultimus »
9/25/2006 Mistform Ultimus has all creature types even if an effect removes its ability. Type-changing static abilities will apply in layer 4 before effects such as Sudden Spoiling's remove them in layer 5.
The previews are coming in rather fast over the past few days, but I'm surprised that our wager remains unresolved...
Anyway...
One thing I've noticed is that Eventide is moving further away from Lorwyn's Tribe = particular colors. Shadowmoor continued the established tribes with the allied color hybrids being focused mainly on them. Eventide's enemy color hybrids is pretty mixed up in terms of creature types. So far:
- hags, spirits
- elementals, hags, trolls
- beasts, ouphes
- elementals, shapeshifters
- dwarves, goblins, horror, kithkin, spirits
You make a block deck form the enemy hybrids, and they're going to be diverse in creature type.
I'm surprised hags don't have a class creature type as well.
Personally, I don't mind classifying different mythic creatures under the same creature type IF THEY HAVE ALOT IN COMMON.
Take gwyllions and hags as an example, although they possess different traits, both of them are ugly female mythic creatures who are a bit mischeivous, sometime malevolent so i think it is acceptable to classify them in the same creature type.
However, as we all know, merfolks are creatures which are half-fish adn half-people. But selkies are half-human and half-seal. Selkies can take the form of human but merfolks cannot; Selkies can leave the water for a longer period than merfolks so they are fundamentally different creature.
If Selkies does not deserve a creature type, I'd rather classify them as shapeshifter as they can take the form of two different beings. Classifying them as merfolks will terribly destroy the flavour.
In real-life mythology, yes, merrows and selkies are very different, but we don't know what Shadowmoor Selkies are like compared to Shadowmoor Merrows. If they're similar enough, it would make sense that they would have the same creature type.
I'd rather classify them as shapeshifter as they can take the form of two different beings.
Actually, that would make a lot of sense.
The problem is that if they don't want to give them Shapeshifter mechanics then people who don't read up on what Selkies are will be very confused about why they're Shapeshifters.
Edit: Not going to happen. Orb says 6 Shapeshifters.
A cycle of 5 for each enemy colored Mimic + Crag Puca = all shapeshifter's accounted for.
When you put it that way, I wouldn't be surprised if Selkies are Merfolk. I will, however, be disappointed.
The biggest reason for my disappointment will be the ability to play Merfolk in a Mono:symg: deck. Yes, a deck will all forests and no water.
At least the plains of LOR had streams running through them to justify the flavor of mono:symw: Merfolk.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
You say WotC tries to prevent clutter by making unnecessary creature types unified under one creature type, even at the expense of (a little) flavor.
I have one example of a creature type that fights against your "WotC likes to de-clutter" argument.
The creature type support my argument (drum roll please): Weird!!!!
Yes, Weirds. Everyone's favorite creature type.
There are only THREE of these in existance, they are all in the same block, and they could have easily been elementals.
Why weren't they made elementals? Because they belong to the Izzet guild and WotC really wanted to show the flavor of the Izzet's creative nature. The Izzet are so creative, they created a new creature type!
So... if they only made 3 Weirds. What's wrong with a few Selkies?
Nothing, according to the printing done by WotC in the past.
Edit: Also, aren't Weirds being classified as Elementals more flavorfully justifiable than Selkies as Merfolk?
My bad there. I got locked into the debate so much, it ended up as a "selkies or none at all" thing in my head. Yes, there's the evil, devouring Shadowmoor changeling known as Shorecrasher Mimic as the 1st of Eventide's creatures.
Nevertheless, the dispute and wager is whether creature Selkies will have the Merfolk Creature Type. I say "Yes", arsenick_wrath says "No."
In all honesty, we're deadlocked now- he's got his example and history, I've got mine. His weirds retort is running up against luminum can's spriggans and redcaps.
The :symwb::symwb::symwb: creature has already been revealed. It won't be long until we see our first creature card selkie and settle this debate.
Wins: 2
Losses: 0
Draws: 0
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=118447&page=6
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130479&page=3
I agree, we definitely just have to wait it out now.
You're missing two things:
1. Hybrids must only have what their parent colors have, but they also focus very well on those abilities. That's why the HHH cycle of Shadowmoor (and many other Hybrids from even Ravnica block) produced incredibly efficient mana-cost-to-ability-&-power/toughness creatures. The weakest perhaps is the :symub:- 3 mana for a 3/2 flyer- but that's pretty good for that converted casting cost compared to most of its predecessors.
A can have Shroud much, much easier than a mono :symu:.
2. Even more basic than that, what's the difference between a and merfolk? Trick question: the former is also :symg:! The game has always looked into examining a creature's colors, and NOW even more so, even without a "color matters" theme in the design.
The very act of making a merfolk and not just itself opens up design space. And MaRo and the rest of the gang are not going to shy away from that, especially where it opens gameplay options.
Wins: 2
Losses: 0
Draws: 0
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=118447&page=6
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130479&page=3
MaRo said that one of the biggest things that a new designer does wrong is doing something just because you can, not because you should.
I think this is an example of that. Just because they can open up design space by making Merfolk doesn't mean they need to do it.
I don't believe this would be the case. An amateut design mistake would be to do something new just for the sake of being new. Expanding a creature type into a new color is not being new for the sake of being new. Lorwyn expanded elves and faeries into black, treefolk into black and white, goblins into primarily black, merfolk into white, etc. Shadowmoor expanded Goblins into green, merfolk into black, giants and goblins into green, faeries into white, etc. After all of that, why is expanding Merfolk into Green such a big deal? What is worse about a green merfolk than a white merfolk? Or a green goblin? or a black elf?
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
here it is on top of overbeing of myth:
http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/images/temp_eventide/upet3.jpg
own death, knowing no more
As the assassins all grouped
in four lines,
Dancing on the floor,
And with cold steel, odour on their bodies,
made a move to connect
I could only stare in disbelief
as the crowds all left
Link:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=2930170#post2930170
You do realize you just said "they shouldn't open up design space"?
This isn't a case of opening up design space because you can. It's opening design space for the sake of producing new cards and exploring new mechanics- something they do each time they come up with a new expansion- especially for the Merfolk tribe which trails right after Lorwyn and has a long place in Magic history.
For example, this isn't the first time they did hybrid mana- yet this is worlds away from Ravnica in both flavor and mechanics. They're exploring what else you can do with hyrbrid cards. Honestly, I loved that flow-chart thingy they have where they branch out and link together the various themes and goals of Shadowmoor block. I honestly love the "color matters", "reward playing mono/dual colors" parts of this block. Much of what we're seeing now we didn't see when hybrid first made its debut.
Of course, they have to be smart about it. The last thing they need is to make new designs that are ultimately dead ends. They have to ensure that whatever works now can work with the least amount of conflict or rules change with cards from the past and in the future.
It's tough, but that's what consistency in design is about. They have to stick to Merfolk.
Probably why Spriggans and Redcaps are gobbos, as luminum can pointed out.
On another note, quoting you quoting MaRo:
Wouldn't making Selkies their own creature type also be doing it simply because they can?
Instead, they coulld follow current design by making them part of the established Merfolk tribe, expanding on Merfolk's stuff.
Wins: 2
Losses: 0
Draws: 0
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=118447&page=6
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130479&page=3
You forget that creating new creature types can also open up design space because those creature types can get their own identity, flavorfully as well as mechanically. Like how the viashino are very different from the goblins and the goblins and viashino from the kobolds.
Keep in mind, Kobolds and Goblins as they've been depicted in Magic art are very similar. One look at kobolds of kher keep could tell you that. But mechanically, as well as flavorfully, they're worlds apart.
This is a Shivan Ampersand
Chameleon Colossus
Changeling Titan
Game-Trail Changeling
Woodland Changeling
What's so new about Merfolk again?
But to address that seriously: that's by virtue of the Changeling ability. Should any effect cause a changeling to lose all its abilities, it would cease being a Merfolk/Elf/Kithkin/Wizard/Rogue/Eye/Horror/Kavu/etc.
But, interestingly, it would remain a Shapeshifter. And Mistform Ultimus would similarly become just an Illusion.
Also, given the Shadowmoor Changelings (Mimics): that's one of the important mechanical differences between them and their Shadowmoor versions: no changeling ability.
---
@ DarkwaterElemental: I'm still waiting for your response to my wager. Put your pride where your mouth is.
Wins: 2
Losses: 0
Draws: 0
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=118447&page=6
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130479&page=3
Here's from the FAQ of Mistform Ultimus:
Yes, I know this is really off-topic.
Anyway...
One thing I've noticed is that Eventide is moving further away from Lorwyn's Tribe = particular colors. Shadowmoor continued the established tribes with the allied color hybrids being focused mainly on them. Eventide's enemy color hybrids is pretty mixed up in terms of creature types. So far:
- hags, spirits
- elementals, hags, trolls
- beasts, ouphes
- elementals, shapeshifters
- dwarves, goblins, horror, kithkin, spirits
You make a block deck form the enemy hybrids, and they're going to be diverse in creature type.
I'm surprised hags don't have a class creature type as well.
Wins: 2
Losses: 0
Draws: 0
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=118447&page=6
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130479&page=3
I know, I keep expecting to see something that at least reference's Selkies. What are the odds, with half the set already revealed.
Take gwyllions and hags as an example, although they possess different traits, both of them are ugly female mythic creatures who are a bit mischeivous, sometime malevolent so i think it is acceptable to classify them in the same creature type.
However, as we all know, merfolks are creatures which are half-fish adn half-people. But selkies are half-human and half-seal. Selkies can take the form of human but merfolks cannot; Selkies can leave the water for a longer period than merfolks so they are fundamentally different creature.
If Selkies does not deserve a creature type, I'd rather classify them as shapeshifter as they can take the form of two different beings. Classifying them as merfolks will terribly destroy the flavour.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Actually, that would make a lot of sense.
The problem is that if they don't want to give them Shapeshifter mechanics then people who don't read up on what Selkies are will be very confused about why they're Shapeshifters.
Edit: Not going to happen. Orb says 6 Shapeshifters.
A cycle of 5 for each enemy colored Mimic + Crag Puca = all shapeshifter's accounted for.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=120314
EDIT: Wistful Selkie has been revealed too, and it's a merfolk.
Form their texts, there are 5 instances of "selkie". The Orb's 7 minus 5 equals 2- one or maybe two more selkies are in the set.
Wins: 2
Losses: 0
Draws: 0
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=118447&page=6
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130479&page=3
Damn, when I saw Noggles, I thought for sure that I was going to win this bet. Guess more than 1 new creature type would be too shocking. lol
/quit magic lol