Beyond the Threshold

[YuanTi]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Beyond the Threshold. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[Griever9977]

I'm glad to see Legacy getting some article love. =) Also I was surprised you never mentioned UGwb Thresh. A lot of people I play with run it for the best spot removal sweet in the format. In the form of 4 StP an 4 Vindicates. I see it top 8 every now and then. I was just wondering if you had considered it for article space or not. I completely understand not writing about it. I was just curious as to why you didn't.

[YuanTi]

Originally Posted by MorgulLord

One nitpick is that "discard is useful against every deck" isn't true with Ichorid.

Taking away their turn one Breakthrough could be pretty important.

I'll concede that Ichorid makes discard weaker, but, you're running black, discard out Extirpates/Leylines in. Black is still probably stronger against Ichorid than any other colour of Thresh, post board at least.

Originally Posted by Griever9977

Also I was surprised you never mentioned UGwb Thresh. A lot of people I play with run it for the best spot removal sweet in the format. In the form of 4 StP an 4 Vindicates. I see it top 8 every now and then. I was just wondering if you had considered it for article space or not. I completely understand not writing about it. I was just curious as to why you didn't.

If I were to include one more flavour of Threshold, UGbw would be my next choice. Effectively it came down to the fact that the article was getting pretty long already, and there wasn't much that could be covered by writing about UGbw that wouldn't be by writing about 5c. Even if 5c is weaker on the manabase.

[bradleyforrest]

I didn't read the article, just the thesis so I could be way off base here. I've run 3 monthly legacy tourneys at my shop in RI and we have had no Threshold do well. At all. The winning decks have been Dreadstill, by and large. This past one had 2 Mono-B Aggro decks in the finals. Yeah, that was odd.

That said, your metagame is vastly different from what mine is and I just have a hard time believing that Threshold is the best deck. I haven't seen it perform well at all.

[steve032]

I wouldn't say "Threshold is King" since it's many flavours of the deck have problems against Vial Goblins.

I still like it, and alternately play UGW with maindeck Meddling Mage and UGB similar to the build you showed except with a full set of Ghastly Demise.

I still always have trouble with Vial Goblins . Tivadar's Crusade is helpful for the UGW version, but many run Rishadan Port + Wasteland.

Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into Type 1.5 metagaming. I <3 the article.

[bladewing019]

Threshold is pretty much the consensus best archetype in the format. Which doesn't necessarily mean its the best in every meta, but across Legacy as a whole. Its consistency combined with the relative few truly bad MUs (against decks that also have a chance against the rest of the field) give it a sizable advantage.

[Suicide King]

Regarding the lists: I assume these decks made before the Restrictions.

And, how does threshold stand up now the some of its draw got nerfed?

[pingveno]

nothing has been nerfed as far as legacy goes, brainstorm and ponder were restricted in vintage... quite a difference.
that being said, good article, i really think that legacy is an underdeveloped archetype, there really needs to be more written about it so people can learn about, in my opinion, the most fun type of constructed. good start Yuan!

[YuanTi]

Originally Posted by steve032

I wouldn't say "Threshold is King" since it's many flavours of the deck have problems against Vial Goblins.

Threshold used to have problems against Goblins, but with Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance the matchup has improved significantly, and Goblins are 50-50 at worst for Thresh.

Originally Posted by bradleyforrest

I've run 3 monthly legacy tourneys at my shop in RI and we have had no Threshold do well. At all. The winning decks have been Dreadstill, by and large. This past one had 2 Mono-B Aggro decks in the finals. Yeah, that was odd.

This depends on how many people you can get, what cards they can get hold of, and what the best players are playing. If the best players play Dreadstill, Dreadstill will win. This doesn't make Dreadstill the best deck, as there are many decks Dreadstill has problems against. If MBA is putting up results, and not the generally better Eva Green, that generally reads that your metagame is not fully developed.

In the right meta (one with little Threshold or Landstill), Belcher could be the top deck easily. It wouldnt be the top deck in the format, but it is taking advantage of the metagame.

[bradleyforrest]

Originally Posted by YuanTi

This depends on how many people you can get, what cards they can get hold of, and what the best players are playing. If the best players play Dreadstill, Dreadstill will win. This doesn't make Dreadstill the best deck, as there are many decks Dreadstill has problems against. If MBA is putting up results, and not the generally better Eva Green, that generally reads that your metagame is not fully developed.

In the right meta (one with little Threshold or Landstill), Belcher could be the top deck easily. It wouldnt be the top deck in the format, but it is taking advantage of the metagame.

We get about 30 players. I could drop a few names but I don't know that it matters. When some of the best Vintage/Legacy players in the country choose not to play a Thresh variant, I wonder about the power of the deck.

[Apex]

I would really like to see your meta where Threshold isn't the "best" deck. A simple check on deckcheck will show that the number of top8 appearances of some version of Thresh is far greater than that of any other deck (save maybe goblins and landstill, both of which still put up very good numbers). So statistically speaking, it is the "best" deck.

As for the article, it's a great read for anyone interested in getting into legacy and picking up the "best" deck to play, however, it doesn't really say much more for the people that constantly check up on the source. Still, it's a very good effort, and a well written article (though maybe you could have broken this down into 2 parts. There were alot of information in that one article).

[YuanTi]

Originally Posted by bradleyforrest

We get about 30 players. I could drop a few names but I don't know that it matters. When some of the best Vintage/Legacy players in the country choose not to play a Thresh variant, I wonder about the power of the deck.

Whether or not local players play Thresh is irrelevant. Looking worldwide at tournaments with 33+ players, the following Numbers are got each month. Only Decks to Beat are shown.

July 07

Vial Goblins - 10
Threshold - 9

August 07

Vial Goblins - 7
Threshold - 7

September 07

Vial Goblins - 4
Threshold - 15
Cephalid Breakfast - 5
Landstill - 6

October 07

Threshold - 16
Landstill - 5

November 07

Threshold – 15 (colors include UGR, UGb, UG, UGRW)
Landstill – 9 (colors include UW, UWB, UWBG, UGRW, BHWC, 4c)
Goblins– 6 (splashes include W, G, and GW)

December 07

Threshold – 17 (colors include 7 UGR, 4 UGW, 3 UG, 2 UGWB, UGB)
Landstill – 8 (colors include 6 BHWC, UWG, UWR)
Goblins– 9 (splashes include 3 W, 2 BG, GW, WB, B, G)

January 08

Threshold – 12 (colors include 5 UGR, 5 UGW, UGWB, UGB)
Landstill – 7 (colors include 4 BHWC, UW, 2 UWR)
Goblins– 9 (splashes include 5 W, 2 No splash, WB, GB)

February 08

Threshold – 12 (variants include 5 UGR, 3 UGW, UGWB, UGRW, 2 Trinket Thresh)
Goblins– 10 (splashes include 4 W, 3 No splash, 2 B, G)
Landstill – 6 (colors include 4 BHWC (4C), UWb, 1 UWR)
BWG Rock - 6

March 08

Threshold – 13 (variants include 3 UGR, 6 UGW, UGB, 3 Gro)
Goblins– 10 (splashes include 4 W, 2 No splash, 1 GB, 2 G, 1 BU)
Landstill – 5 (colors include 3 BHWC (4C), UWb Cunning Wish, 1 UWB)

April 08

Threshold – 12 (variants include 3 UGR, 2 UGW, 2 UGB, 2 Gro, 2 5C, NQS)
Goblins– 7 (splashes include 3 W, 1 GWB, GW, 2 G, B, GB)
Ichorid – 9
CRET Belcher – 6

May 08

Threshold – 9 (variants include 4 UGR, UGW, UGB, 2 5C, UG)
Ichorid – 9
Landstill – 9 (colors include 5 BHWC (4C), 3 UWb, UW)
Goblins– 5 (all white splashes)
BWG Rock – 5

June 08

Threshold – 9 (variants include 3UGW, 4UGR, UGB, UG)
Landstill – 8 (colors include 3BHWC (4C), 3 UWb, UW, unknown)
Goblins– 8 (splashes include 2R, 2gb, 2w, 2b)
Aggro Loam – 8

______________________

For an entire year Threshold has had 7 or more Top 8s in tourneys over 33 people. No other deck has even stayed in the Decks to Beat that entire time. In the entire year it has been the second most scoring once (the furthest away), and top ever since. Dreadstill which seems to be being advocated has not had more than 3 in this period, partially due to it's less reliable matchups.

[jokalhaups]

I have a question about the first deck list. It runs 4 Seal of Primoridum in the main deck. Out of all the other decks, there's only one with a way to remove artifacts/enchantments once they hit play and it's only running 2 Oblivion Ring in the main. So is it that important to have 4 Seals in the main? I mean, I would think that since it doesn't even trigger Dryad that this would be a bad call. Why not run like Boomerang, Temporal Spring, or the like so you are sure to have a target regardless of what deck you're playing and get the bonus off Dryad? Or is Countertop that prevelant that you need 4 main deck ways to stop it if it hits play? I also wonder, how many decks is this card useless against?

[Finn]

@Jokulhaups: It's a judgement call for sure, but I bet Bladewing was aware that his deck did not have Counterbalance, and wanted to help out the Goyf a bit.

Thanks for the article, Yuan Ti. It as a good read. No complaints.

[Puzzle]

Originally Posted by YuanTi

Threshold used to have problems against Goblins, but with Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance the matchup has improved significantly, and Goblins are 50-50 at worst for Thresh.

Counterbalance does very little to Gobs, thanks to the curve, Lackey and Vial.
If it weren't for Goyf, Threshold would get mauled by Gobs, particularly at a time when red seems to be the least liked version.

I think the matchup is actually in Gobs' favour, based on Rb / Rgb builds.
The reason it hasn't shown to be so much is the reduction in number of "quality" players playing Gobs. That may be due to other reasons, such as combo's current efficiency, but I do doubt that Threshold has the upper hand on Gobs.

I also disagree with Jace and Hoofprints, particularly if you cite an aggro meta but the article is globally a fine job.