**Please contact Kraj for all issues related to this game.**
Welcome to Prehistoric Mafia!
Long before the dawn of recorded history, somewhere north of the Arctic circle, in a fertile valley, warmed by hot volcanic springs, the Onkilon tribe leads its peaceful existance; the grass is green, the berries are red, and the mammoth meat is nutricious and rich in proteins.
The Onkilon men, bronze skinned, burly and strong, are hunters, leaders, the muscle and brain of the tribe. But the tribe cannot survive without its heart - the women. Though not as powerful or skillful as the men, the feminine touch is necessary not only to keep the fire in the hearth burning, but also for the survival of the bloodline, and they must be taken care of as the most precious treasure. So it is, so it was for thousands of years.
But now, things have changed. The evil Vampu tribe, hairy and ape-like, has invaded the valley, claiming in for their own. In direct confrontations, the Onkilons' nimble spears were superior to the Vampu heavy, but clumsy stone clubs, and the trive was able to fend off the invaders, although not without losses, and now only a handful of you remain. Still, the Vampu's losses were immeasureable, and they decided to take the land by deceit rather than force. Under the cover of the month-long Arctic night, a small group of Vampu infiltrated the Onkilon tribe. In the darkness, it's hard to distinguish friend from foe. Discussion, persuasion and diplomacy, rather than military prowess, take center stage.
Each "day", you must decide upon one of you to be thrown into the Great Geyser, then retire for a "night" rest.
However, Onkilons, be warned! Merely eliminating the Vampu infiltrators is not enough! The Onkilon bloodline must survive, and to that end, at least one male and at least one female Onkilon need to survive. To gain control of the valley, the Vampu do not need to kill you all, merely remove your capability to produce offsprings.
Typical vanilla townie PM:
You are <name>, an Onkilon woman. You have no abilities in the game.
You win when all Vampu are eliminated, provided at least one Onkilon of each gender survives.
Rules:
1. This is a game. As such, it's supposed to be fun for all involved. Do your part to make it happen.
2. No lurking. Three days of unjustified inactivity = prod. No response to prod within reasonable time = replacement. If you need to go on vacation or something, let me know.
3. No editing or deleting posts.
4. No posting at night.
5. If you're dead, you're dead. Dead people don't post. Sometimes they go 'bah!', but that's more or less the extent of the communication a dead person is capable of.
6. Don't quote your role PM. Don't try to subtly get around this restriction by unobtrusively posting key parts of your role PM. I worded all PMs in a way that makes this tactic useless anyway.
7. No talking about the game out side the thread, unless your role allows you to, and only within the parameters of your role.
8. Votes and unvotes in bold. Lynching requires regular majority.
9. Nights will be deadlined. No choice = no action.
Players (alive):
Zionite (replacing BigTime)
Wrath of Dog
Ged
JqlGirl (replacing wo bu YA0)
Catalina
Players (dead): Apokalypse Kid - Harrad, Vampu Tracker (male) - lynched day 1 desCoures - Targa, Onkilon veteran and storyteller (male) - killed night 1 andelijah - Uertava, an Onkilon woman -lynched day 2 Cyan - Azzarg, Vampu Hider (male) - lynched day 3 DYH - M'rand, an Onkilon bodyguard (male) - killed night 3 Mystery Meat of Doom - Ndialle, an Onkilon hunter skilled in scouting and stealth (male) - killed night 3 Roja - Lauhl, a young Onkilon hunter, whose skills are keen sense of smell and affinity for languages (male). - Killed night 4.
Big thanks to Azrael for his invaluable assistance in the development of this game!
the terms "day", "night", "dawn", "twilight", etc. will be used liberally throughout the game. Please take them at their mafia value, not literal value. Literally speaking, there are no days. The whole game takes place during the month-long Arctic night.
It's now Day 1. With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch. The Great Geyser rumbles angrily in the distance, requiring a sacrifice. Fight for your land and your bloodline, Onkilons!
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
It's now Day 1. With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch. The Great Geyser rumbles angrily in the distance, requiring a sacrifice. Fight for your land and your bloodline, Onkilons!
To clarify: this doesn't have any in game significance, correct?
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
What better mad mischief than to swap around everyone's hats? I see that you have no answer. And I am not at all surprised, for indeed there is no finer mischief than a swapping around of hats.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
There may be a point far down the line where it becomes necessary, but it'll be just that: far down the line.
And it's not quite half, but it's close. Assume 3 scum and 9 town. Normally, this means they have to kill 6 of us to bring the game down to an even level, assuring their victory.
Now assume the mechanics of this game are active, with 5 males and 4 females (or 5 females and 4 males, it doesn't matter) in the town. The scum only have to kill 4 of us to start instead of 6 (although they have to get lucky to do that if we haven't claimed). Not too bad at first glance since it's unlikely that the scum will hit the 4 they need early.
But here's the kicker: they only ever have to kill those 4 of us. In a normal game, the more of them that we kill, the more of us they have to kill back. If it starts 9 town vs 3 scum but we lynch a scum, they have to kill 7 of us instead of 6. Not so with this gender business flying around. They only have to kill a certain 4 of us. Ever. Which means that if we mass claim and the townies aren't lying, then we have 4 nights maximum to kill the scum. And that assumes that we don't accidentally lynch a townie of the wrong gender.
It gets even worse if we have 6 males and 3 females (or 3 and 6).
Just thinking about the idea of telling the mafia who they need to kill scares me. Gender claiming is a terri-bad idea.
There may be a point far down the line where it becomes necessary, but it'll be just that: far down the line.
And it's not quite half, but it's close. Assume 3 scum and 9 town. Normally, this means they have to kill 6 of us to bring the game down to an even level, assuring their victory.
Now assume the mechanics of this game are active, with 5 males and 4 females (or 5 females and 4 males, it doesn't matter) in the town. The scum only have to kill 4 of us to start instead of 6 (although they have to get lucky to do that if we haven't claimed). Not too bad at first glance since it's unlikely that the scum will hit the 4 they need early.
But here's the kicker: they only ever have to kill those 4 of us. In a normal game, the more of them that we kill, the more of us they have to kill back. If it starts 9 town vs 3 scum but we lynch a scum, they have to kill 7 of us instead of 6. Not so with this gender business flying around. They only have to kill a certain 4 of us. Ever. Which means that if we mass claim and the townies aren't lying, then we have 4 nights maximum to kill the scum. And that assumes that we don't accidentally lynch a townie of the wrong gender.
It gets even worse if we have 6 males and 3 females (or 3 and 6).
Just thinking about the idea of telling the mafia who they need to kill scares me. Gender claiming is a terri-bad idea.
I take opposition to your math: the scum need kill only 3 + the number of scum we lynch. Because while the scum need 6 townies dead total, mislynches are on their side. Each right lynch makes them kill more, but for the mafia to win, they need to kill a maximum of 5 people. They need there to be 3 mislynches.
Since town will claim honestly, whilst scum will have to lie, we may end up with an imbalance in claimed gender, which will help us work out where the greater concentration of scum is.
Why do the scum have to lie?
Gaming the mod, I'd assume Alx made it 6 and 6 forseeing this. However, even if he didn't, what happens if it turns up 8 and 4? We going to completely ignore the minority gender? What if there's a scum there?
I'm especially worried if there are only two of a claimed gender left. If one is scum, the scum win if we ignore them, but we can't lynch them in case both are town. Without the claim, we can a) just lynch the suspicious person and b) not have to worry about the scum *knowing* who to shoot at night.
Anyhow, against claiming. I am not in favor of a plan that tells the scum how to accomplish their win condition.
I thought that Catalina's initial suggestion was okay, if a little naive.
But after the 'clarification', I'm all on board for a Vote Catalina.
No matter how you try to mask it, a gender claim is simply going to benefit the scum more than the town. I'm pretty sure that we should never reveal our genders, unless we're in a situation where we have a specific reason to suspect that one of the genders is about to be wiped out. And even then, we would have to have protective measures in place.
I'm pretty sure that we should never reveal our genders, unless we're in a situation where we have a specific reason to suspect that one of the genders is about to be wiped out. And even then, we would have to have protective measures in place.
I think that would be the worst time to reveal genders, no?
I take opposition to your math: the scum need kill only 3 + the number of scum we lynch. Because while the scum need 6 townies dead total, mislynches are on their side. Each right lynch makes them kill more, but for the mafia to win, they need to kill a maximum of 5 people. They need there to be 3 mislynches.
True. But if we lynch someone of the minority gender, we can still end up in a situation where they win faster than normal through gender discrimination.
Gender is an issue. However, I think our best bet is to lynch scum first obv, and worry about gender second. Bring it up when we we are called upon to claim. We aren't stupid here. Mass claiming now would only outline which players the scum should kill to allow them to win. The town is going to be plenty aware of the situation for a day or two. Just my thoughts...
In short, FULL CLAIM BAD! SCUM HUNT GOOD!
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Underrated, Overlooked
Thanks to THEY DID WHAT!? For the sweet banner!
Games played:3, 1 ongoing Times Town: 1, with 1 win Times Scum: 1, with 1 loss
I do not agree with a gender claim as there are only so many of one sex for the mafia to deal with. (Who knows if there are more women then men..) I think this idea gives the Mafia more help in destroying the town.
(wow I even got to miss the random voting stage too..)
However a good FOS on Catalina.
And like in FF a great case of open mouth insert foot.
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Unvote Ged, because the random stage is apparently over.
I feel a mass gender claim is, as Ged put it, TERRI-BAD. It puts the town on a timer regardless of the number of scum lynched. Also, all of Catalina's points are mediocre.
-------------------
Quote from Catalina »
For instance, obvobv if they're killing for gender, they're not killing for role.
Wouldn't it be better if they weren't killing for either?
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Quote from Catalina »
If someone is the last of their gender, we'll need to know that so we don't kill them/ so that any potential protective roles can protect.
Time for a hypothetical situation:
We get down to the last of a gender
We say "Oh, don't worry, the doc will protect them!"
We don't have a doc.
We lose.
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Quote from Catalina »
It prevents scum from claiming whichever gender is more likely to keep them alive down the road. It limits their fakeclaiming options. For instance, a claimed woman can hardly claim 'medicine man.'
They claim a gender to keep them alive right now. I'd be a little wary about putting pressure on a male if there are only two left, and that doesn't matter if they claim now or later.
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Quote from Catalina »
Since town will claim honestly, whilst scum will have to lie, we may end up with an imbalance in claimed gender, which will help us work out where the greater concentration of scum is.
Scum don't have to lie. It's probably 6 males and 6 females. Even if it's not, we can't ignore the minority in an 8-4 or 7-5 split. Etc.
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Yeah, so, mass gender claim is a big no-no. If you'd like to keep promoting a mass-claim, I can accuse you of pushing a scum-favoring agenda, but for now, I'm keeping off your wagon. I think this is probably just a bad suggestion, not a scumtell.
Some of the other options are claiming with role stuff when pressured, or waiting and taking a peek under the loincloth after we have a body (i.e, don't claim gender). Unless a troubling amount (probably 3) of your gender have been killed, I don't think we should claim gender, even under pressure. By doing this we keep the scum as ignorant as possible, as long as possible. Plus I like the phrase peek under the loincloth. Any other opinions?
What better mad mischief than to swap around everyone's hats? I see that you have no answer. And I am not at all surprised, for indeed there is no finer mischief than a swapping around of hats.
Hey, simulpost. The green is added by me for context.
Quote from Catalina »
No one is advocating a day one massclaim.
Quote from Catalina »
And also, I wasn't advocating the idea [of a massclaim], i was advocating discussion of the idea, as the post makes clear (though the more i think about it, the more town-favouring it sounds). Is it then your position that genders should never be claimed? I think there may well be a point at which it is beneficial.
So, Catalina, do you think a massclaim is town-favoring?
What better mad mischief than to swap around everyone's hats? I see that you have no answer. And I am not at all surprised, for indeed there is no finer mischief than a swapping around of hats.
What I advocated was a discussion of when it might be appropriate to claim gender. One of the options I presented was now; equally, another was never. I asked for people's opinions on the matter. I certainly never came anywhere near suggesting mass roleclaim.
You do have a point here. What exactly are we to believe when a -2 Lynch will occur? Mafia will most likely claim a female vanilla role (thanks to the cookie cutter statement on the first post). It will make, claiming a claim hard to prove.
I agree with Catalina that we need to figure out a way to establish a claim of sorts that the mafia cannot easily false claim. (This IS what I believe Cat was trying to do however it came out wrong.)
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We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
I agree with Catalina that we need to figure out a way to establish a claim of sorts that the mafia cannot easily false claim. (This IS what I believe Cat was trying to do however it came out wrong.)
What I was trying to do was establish a consensus on claiming, ie, should town claimants claim their gender? Or not? What about their flavour? Should it merely be the role?
?? From what I have seen on this message board is that if you are -2 to being lynch it is usually a name claim. If the players demand more they will usually ask for it.
I am no way making any excuses for Cat, It did however spark the "what if" in my head. Because name claiming could be just as easy as gender claiming and even role claiming. (Say you claim that your name was Daisy. I would assume then that you would be a vanilla female. A whole lot more info say we were in Mushroom Kingdom and you claim that you were Daisy.) The nature of the game I think would need us to establish some "near lynch" rule that is just not a name claim.
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The nature of the game I think would need us to establish some "near lynch" rule that is just not a name claim.
To finish my thought. We need to establish a claim that cannot be simple for the mafia to claim nor something that dosen't give out too much information for a simple name claim.
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If we assume three scum and nine town, then scum only need kill five people to win anyway, right? The scum do not need to kill all the town- they can quite happily endgame them. There are likely going to be four of each plus an odd one. Explain how that is halving.
And also, I wasn't advocating the idea, i was advocating discussion of the idea, as the post makes clear (though the more i think about it, the more town-favouring it sounds). Is it then your position that genders should never be claimed? I think there may well be a point at which it is beneficial.
Illiteracy is a serious problem, so help me help myself. I read the bolded part as referring to the idea of a massclaim, especially since your previous post was a comparison of the pros and cons of a massclaim. Also, the use of the word though suggested to me that whatever this enigmatic "it" is, its benefits have grown on you. Since you were very pro-discussion right from the start, I figured "it" referred to a massclaim. Since it apparently doesn't, you should enlighten me as to what, exactly, "it" refers to. kthanx
What better mad mischief than to swap around everyone's hats? I see that you have no answer. And I am not at all surprised, for indeed there is no finer mischief than a swapping around of hats.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Oh, well, that's a miscommunication on my part. Anywhere in my previous post that says massclaim, read it as mass gender claim. I figured it was understood that that was what I was talking about.
What better mad mischief than to swap around everyone's hats? I see that you have no answer. And I am not at all surprised, for indeed there is no finer mischief than a swapping around of hats.
There are likely to be certain roles whose flavour cannot be claimed without giving away the gender. However, if we do not have a flavour claim, we cannot properly assess the claim as we would in other games. Therefore i wanted to know whether people felt the ability of town players to hide their own gender, or the ability of town players to properly scrutinise other people's claims, is more important.
I think it's important that when the time comes, people claim their abilities even if it means giving away their gender (although I don't expect this to be common). Flavor is less important, although I think we should make the decision on a case by case basis.
What I was trying to do was establish a consensus on claiming, ie, should town claimants claim their gender? Or not? What about their flavour? Should it merely be the role?
When full claiming, it should be everything relevant to the game. Flavor is nice, but short of it being obviously wrong, I don't like using it (see my part in bat's lynch in TFC for an example of where flavor arguments go wrong).
EDBWODP: Though discussion is nice, I don't see how useful it'll be, since we can't arrange for all possibilities. I think it'd be better until someone's forced to claim before pursuing this.
EBWOSP
To finish my thought. We need to establish a claim that cannot be simple for the mafia to claim nor something that dosen't give out too much information for a simple name claim.
You do have a point here. What exactly are we to believe when a -2 Lynch will occur? Mafia will most likely claim a female vanilla role (thanks to the cookie cutter statement on the first post). It will make, claiming a claim hard to prove.
I agree with Catalina that we need to figure out a way to establish a claim of sorts that the mafia cannot easily false claim. (This IS what I believe Cat was trying to do however it came out wrong.)
There's something very deeply wrong with these two posts. Unvote if voting, Vote: Roja.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Hate to break the news but im not a her. You do not like my FOS however you comment nothing about the two votes that are currently ON Catalina. (Which I dont think they should be, I think what Catalina stated was taken out of context.) My FOS was before I understood what exactly Cat was asking for. (And not asking for a mass gender claim.) After clearing things up it was just a way to set a standard for claiming in this game.
There's something very deeply wrong with these two posts. Unvote if voting, Vote: Roja.
What is deeply wrong with finding a way that Town can claim town when they are near lynch status? A way of finding out that Mafia can't claim vanillia female? Because of the nature of this game a simple name claim just isn't going to be a simple name claim. If we are going to go on this case by case status who is going to be the one in charge in determining what info is needed?
As of methods that I have seen here before on this site is that Anagram mess. I am not sure how well that goes, nor do I know if it is worth going down that route.
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?? From what I have seen on this message board is that if you are -2 to being lynch it is usually a name claim. If the players demand more they will usually ask for it.
I am no way making any excuses for Cat, It did however spark the "what if" in my head. Because name claiming could be just as easy as gender claiming and even role claiming. (Say you claim that your name was Daisy. I would assume then that you would be a vanilla female. A whole lot more info say we were in Mushroom Kingdom and you claim that you were Daisy.) The nature of the game I think would need us to establish some "near lynch" rule that is just not a name claim.
(This IS what I believe Cat was trying to do however it came out wrong.)
because you set up an easy out for her, so that if she's in a bind, she can just say-"o ya, what roja said" and setting up that excuse is scummy. Vote Roja
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
@Andel
I think Cat is probably town. I had a knee-jerk to her proposition, but the discussion resulting is good for the town, and I especially like how she didn't take Roja's cop-out offer to her (quoted).
What I was trying to do was establish a consensus on claiming, ie, should town claimants claim their gender? Or not? What about their flavour? Should it merely be the role?
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
@Andel
I think Cat is probably town. I had a knee-jerk to her proposition, but the discussion resulting is good for the town, and I especially like how she didn't take Roja's cop-out offer to her.
So you think Roja is scummy because he was providing answers for Catalina, who you think is town.
Yeah, I realized that contradiction. Roja's actions have been scummy, not just the answer, but what others have posted, but Cat is reading as town. Roja seems scummiest so far, so I decided to vote for him. It seems weird, but Roja is the best lead.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Welcome to Prehistoric Mafia!
Long before the dawn of recorded history, somewhere north of the Arctic circle, in a fertile valley, warmed by hot volcanic springs, the Onkilon tribe leads its peaceful existance; the grass is green, the berries are red, and the mammoth meat is nutricious and rich in proteins.
The Onkilon men, bronze skinned, burly and strong, are hunters, leaders, the muscle and brain of the tribe. But the tribe cannot survive without its heart - the women. Though not as powerful or skillful as the men, the feminine touch is necessary not only to keep the fire in the hearth burning, but also for the survival of the bloodline, and they must be taken care of as the most precious treasure. So it is, so it was for thousands of years.
But now, things have changed. The evil Vampu tribe, hairy and ape-like, has invaded the valley, claiming in for their own. In direct confrontations, the Onkilons' nimble spears were superior to the Vampu heavy, but clumsy stone clubs, and the trive was able to fend off the invaders, although not without losses, and now only a handful of you remain. Still, the Vampu's losses were immeasureable, and they decided to take the land by deceit rather than force. Under the cover of the month-long Arctic night, a small group of Vampu infiltrated the Onkilon tribe. In the darkness, it's hard to distinguish friend from foe. Discussion, persuasion and diplomacy, rather than military prowess, take center stage.
Each "day", you must decide upon one of you to be thrown into the Great Geyser, then retire for a "night" rest.
However, Onkilons, be warned! Merely eliminating the Vampu infiltrators is not enough! The Onkilon bloodline must survive, and to that end, at least one male and at least one female Onkilon need to survive. To gain control of the valley, the Vampu do not need to kill you all, merely remove your capability to produce offsprings.
Typical vanilla townie PM:
Rules:
1. This is a game. As such, it's supposed to be fun for all involved. Do your part to make it happen.
2. No lurking. Three days of unjustified inactivity = prod. No response to prod within reasonable time = replacement. If you need to go on vacation or something, let me know.
3. No editing or deleting posts.
4. No posting at night.
5. If you're dead, you're dead. Dead people don't post. Sometimes they go 'bah!', but that's more or less the extent of the communication a dead person is capable of.
6. Don't quote your role PM. Don't try to subtly get around this restriction by unobtrusively posting key parts of your role PM. I worded all PMs in a way that makes this tactic useless anyway.
7. No talking about the game out side the thread, unless your role allows you to, and only within the parameters of your role.
8. Votes and unvotes in bold. Lynching requires regular majority.
9. Nights will be deadlined. No choice = no action.
Players (alive):
Zionite (replacing BigTime)
Wrath of Dog
Ged
JqlGirl (replacing wo bu YA0)
Catalina
Players (dead):
Apokalypse Kid - Harrad, Vampu Tracker (male) - lynched day 1
desCoures - Targa, Onkilon veteran and storyteller (male) - killed night 1
andelijah - Uertava, an Onkilon woman - lynched day 2
Cyan - Azzarg, Vampu Hider (male) - lynched day 3
DYH - M'rand, an Onkilon bodyguard (male) - killed night 3
Mystery Meat of Doom - Ndialle, an Onkilon hunter skilled in scouting and stealth (male) - killed night 3
Roja - Lauhl, a young Onkilon hunter, whose skills are keen sense of smell and affinity for languages (male). - Killed night 4.
Big thanks to Azrael for his invaluable assistance in the development of this game!
Modern: URStormUR|BRGW Jund BRGW|GWUB Gifts GWUB
Commander:XKarnX
Cubes: Level 1: Pauper
Untrustworthy name.
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@Everyone else: please bandwagon ftw!
To clarify: this doesn't have any in game significance, correct?
Or is no lynch not an option?
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
I will keel you.:mad:
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You are not the juggernaut.
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It's true.
And gender claiming is the worst idea possible. It tells the scum who to NK every night. Did you read the mod's post?!
IGMEOY Catalina.
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Lol. Don't vote AKid. He's just a naive cop anyway...
This is gonna be a fun game...
I'm opposed to a gender claim.
Also, fere, it was very awesome. Haha.
And it's not quite half, but it's close. Assume 3 scum and 9 town. Normally, this means they have to kill 6 of us to bring the game down to an even level, assuring their victory.
Now assume the mechanics of this game are active, with 5 males and 4 females (or 5 females and 4 males, it doesn't matter) in the town. The scum only have to kill 4 of us to start instead of 6 (although they have to get lucky to do that if we haven't claimed). Not too bad at first glance since it's unlikely that the scum will hit the 4 they need early.
But here's the kicker: they only ever have to kill those 4 of us. In a normal game, the more of them that we kill, the more of us they have to kill back. If it starts 9 town vs 3 scum but we lynch a scum, they have to kill 7 of us instead of 6. Not so with this gender business flying around. They only have to kill a certain 4 of us. Ever. Which means that if we mass claim and the townies aren't lying, then we have 4 nights maximum to kill the scum. And that assumes that we don't accidentally lynch a townie of the wrong gender.
It gets even worse if we have 6 males and 3 females (or 3 and 6).
Just thinking about the idea of telling the mafia who they need to kill scares me. Gender claiming is a terri-bad idea.
I take opposition to your math: the scum need kill only 3 + the number of scum we lynch. Because while the scum need 6 townies dead total, mislynches are on their side. Each right lynch makes them kill more, but for the mafia to win, they need to kill a maximum of 5 people. They need there to be 3 mislynches.
Your 6 and 3 point is good though.
Why do the scum have to lie?
Gaming the mod, I'd assume Alx made it 6 and 6 forseeing this. However, even if he didn't, what happens if it turns up 8 and 4? We going to completely ignore the minority gender? What if there's a scum there?
I'm especially worried if there are only two of a claimed gender left. If one is scum, the scum win if we ignore them, but we can't lynch them in case both are town. Without the claim, we can a) just lynch the suspicious person and b) not have to worry about the scum *knowing* who to shoot at night.
Anyhow, against claiming. I am not in favor of a plan that tells the scum how to accomplish their win condition.
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But after the 'clarification', I'm all on board for a Vote Catalina.
No matter how you try to mask it, a gender claim is simply going to benefit the scum more than the town. I'm pretty sure that we should never reveal our genders, unless we're in a situation where we have a specific reason to suspect that one of the genders is about to be wiped out. And even then, we would have to have protective measures in place.
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True. But if we lynch someone of the minority gender, we can still end up in a situation where they win faster than normal through gender discrimination.
In short, FULL CLAIM BAD! SCUM HUNT GOOD!
(wow I even got to miss the random voting stage too..)
However a good FOS on Catalina.
And like in FF a great case of open mouth insert foot.
AKid - 3 (MMOD, WoD, Catalina)
Catalina - 3 (andelijah, Ged, Cyan)
BigTime - 1 (AKid)
desCoures - 1 (WBY)
Ged - 1 (FMJ)
Not voting: Roja, desCoures, BigTime
I feel a mass gender claim is, as Ged put it, TERRI-BAD. It puts the town on a timer regardless of the number of scum lynched. Also, all of Catalina's points are mediocre.
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Wouldn't it be better if they weren't killing for either?
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Time for a hypothetical situation:
We get down to the last of a gender
We say "Oh, don't worry, the doc will protect them!"
We don't have a doc.
We lose.
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They claim a gender to keep them alive right now. I'd be a little wary about putting pressure on a male if there are only two left, and that doesn't matter if they claim now or later.
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Scum don't have to lie. It's probably 6 males and 6 females. Even if it's not, we can't ignore the minority in an 8-4 or 7-5 split. Etc.
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Yeah, so, mass gender claim is a big no-no. If you'd like to keep promoting a mass-claim, I can accuse you of pushing a scum-favoring agenda, but for now, I'm keeping off your wagon. I think this is probably just a bad suggestion, not a scumtell.
Some of the other options are claiming with role stuff when pressured, or waiting and taking a peek under the loincloth after we have a body (i.e, don't claim gender). Unless a troubling amount (probably 3) of your gender have been killed, I don't think we should claim gender, even under pressure. By doing this we keep the scum as ignorant as possible, as long as possible. Plus I like the phrase peek under the loincloth. Any other opinions?
So, Catalina, do you think a massclaim is town-favoring?
You do have a point here. What exactly are we to believe when a -2 Lynch will occur? Mafia will most likely claim a female vanilla role (thanks to the cookie cutter statement on the first post). It will make, claiming a claim hard to prove.
I agree with Catalina that we need to figure out a way to establish a claim of sorts that the mafia cannot easily false claim. (This IS what I believe Cat was trying to do however it came out wrong.)
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?? From what I have seen on this message board is that if you are -2 to being lynch it is usually a name claim. If the players demand more they will usually ask for it.
I am no way making any excuses for Cat, It did however spark the "what if" in my head. Because name claiming could be just as easy as gender claiming and even role claiming. (Say you claim that your name was Daisy. I would assume then that you would be a vanilla female. A whole lot more info say we were in Mushroom Kingdom and you claim that you were Daisy.) The nature of the game I think would need us to establish some "near lynch" rule that is just not a name claim.
To finish my thought. We need to establish a claim that cannot be simple for the mafia to claim nor something that dosen't give out too much information for a simple name claim.
Illiteracy is a serious problem, so help me help myself. I read the bolded part as referring to the idea of a massclaim, especially since your previous post was a comparison of the pros and cons of a massclaim. Also, the use of the word though suggested to me that whatever this enigmatic "it" is, its benefits have grown on you. Since you were very pro-discussion right from the start, I figured "it" referred to a massclaim. Since it apparently doesn't, you should enlighten me as to what, exactly, "it" refers to. kthanx
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Oh, well, that's a miscommunication on my part. Anywhere in my previous post that says massclaim, read it as mass gender claim. I figured it was understood that that was what I was talking about.
I think it's important that when the time comes, people claim their abilities even if it means giving away their gender (although I don't expect this to be common). Flavor is less important, although I think we should make the decision on a case by case basis.
When full claiming, it should be everything relevant to the game. Flavor is nice, but short of it being obviously wrong, I don't like using it (see my part in bat's lynch in TFC for an example of where flavor arguments go wrong).
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I keep forgetting about that.
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I don't see anything scummy about Catalina, and those early votes I thought were weightless. She defended well against the "points" against her.
FOS: Roja
I didn't like her fos on Catalina.
There's something very deeply wrong with these two posts. Unvote if voting, Vote: Roja.
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Hate to break the news but im not a her. You do not like my FOS however you comment nothing about the two votes that are currently ON Catalina. (Which I dont think they should be, I think what Catalina stated was taken out of context.) My FOS was before I understood what exactly Cat was asking for. (And not asking for a mass gender claim.) After clearing things up it was just a way to set a standard for claiming in this game.
What is deeply wrong with finding a way that Town can claim town when they are near lynch status? A way of finding out that Mafia can't claim vanillia female? Because of the nature of this game a simple name claim just isn't going to be a simple name claim. If we are going to go on this case by case status who is going to be the one in charge in determining what info is needed?
As of methods that I have seen here before on this site is that Anagram mess. I am not sure how well that goes, nor do I know if it is worth going down that route.
Pretty sure I did comment on those (sorry about gender mix-up).
Catalina - 2 (Ged, Cyan)
Roja - 2 (Catalina, DesCoures)
AKid - 1 (WoD)
BigTime - 1 (AKid)
desCoures - 1 (WBY)
Not voting: Roja, BigTime, FMJ, andelijah, mmod
You misinterpret-I meant this line-
because you set up an easy out for her, so that if she's in a bind, she can just say-"o ya, what roja said" and setting up that excuse is scummy. Vote Roja
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@Roja: An answer, please.
There is no need for a massclaim every game.
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I think Cat is probably town. I had a knee-jerk to her proposition, but the discussion resulting is good for the town, and I especially like how she didn't take Roja's cop-out offer to her (quoted).
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