The decks plays like a typical white weenie deck with a Kithkin tribal theme, but it also utilizes Spectral Procession as a tool against Faeries and as a way to generate more creatures than the opponent. This then allows the Kithkin player to Mirrorweave a Thistledown Liege or a Wilt-Leaf Liege and use the superior board position to push through unblocked with a massive creature. Some builds eschew Mirrorweave in favor of a more consistent aggro playstyle.
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I could see running Mirrorweave as a kind of silver bullet...perhaps as a two of, instead of 3 or 4.
Actually, I'm a bit surprised how well this, essentially, block deck translates into Standard. I may be giving this one a try with Merfolk losing favor lately...and losing LoA shortly down the road.
Oh...and welcome back to the Competitive Forum, Kithkin.:)
I believe Unmake to be a superior card to Crib Swap in the deck posted above, and I like to have a more consistent sideboard. I have considered adding the 24th land in place of the 3rd Mirrorweave, but I am not sure about this at the moment, it requires some testing.
The deck is ok in standard, but nowhere near as powerful as in block. Wrath and Damnation are a lot more powerful than removal in block, and the deck loses out to aggro hosers such as Reveillark, and I find it struggles against Demigod RDW too, especially after SB. Blood Knight really helps to tip the scales in their favour.
I like Mana Tithe. It's a personal preference, they can easily just be swapped to the sideboard for the Sunlances or Forge-tenders depending on what I see before the tournament. Crib Swap is a Kithkin and can kill Chameleon Colossus. It can also be cast off a Mutavault. The 1/1 Shapeshifter is negligable. I don't know about Runed Halo. It might change to Kitchen Finks or something.
I like Mana Tithe. It's a personal preference, they can easily just be swapped to the sideboard for the Sunlances or Forge-tenders depending on what I see before the tournament. Crib Swap is a Kithkin and can kill Chameleon Colossus. It can also be cast off a Mutavault. The 1/1 Shapeshifter is negligable. I don't know about Runed Halo. It might change to Kitchen Finks or something.
The thing is, that Mutavault isn't good in a deck which wants W, WW, and WWW during it's first three turns. I don't run it for the same reason that it isn't run in RDW atm. I find Halo can be very useful as it can be set to Demigod, Mistbind Clique, Cloudthresher, Colossus, etc to remove big finishers from the equation (apart from needing to attack through them). Finks is good too, but I prefer Halo at the moment. I like the Larks in the side, I had forgotten about them! I think I will replace Mana Tithe with Lark in my SB.
I still prefer Unmake to Crib Swap though, the 1/1 can be a very irritating speed bump, and make the difference between winning a losing in a tight match. Colossus is not that scary, as he can be stopped by spirit tokens while you attack through.
I still prefer Unmake to Crib Swap though, the 1/1 can be a very irritating speed bump, and make the difference between winning a losing in a tight match. Colossus is not that scary, as he can be stopped by spirit tokens while you attack through.
I thought Cloudgoat Ranger was a must in this deck. Dropping the Thistledown Lieges and removal down a bit to include him is what I've seen most people do. He's a beast coming out of the Windbrisk Heights. Also, depending on how control heavy your meta is (how many wrath effects you'll see), you may see some builds running Kinsbaile Borderguard in the side - or even the main.
Happy to see W(W/U) Kithkin Mirrormaster back in its rightful place. Good job!
I thought Cloudgoat Ranger was a must in this deck. Dropping the Thistledown Lieges and removal down a bit to include him is what I've seen most people do. He's a beast coming out of the Windbrisk Heights. Also, depending on how control heavy your meta is (how many wrath effects you'll see), you may see some builds running Kinsbaile Borderguard in the side - or even the main.
Happy to see W(W/U) Kithkin Mirrormaster back in its rightful place. Good job!
I personally feel that Alec Nezin's list was the best from Nationals, but Aten's was a little more traditional and I think had more to discuss. Here's Nezin's list for reference:
The thing is, that Mutavault isn't good in a deck which wants W, WW, and WWW during it's first three turns. I don't run it for the same reason that it isn't run in RDW atm. I find Halo can be very useful as it can be set to Demigod, Mistbind Clique, Cloudthresher, Colossus, etc to remove big finishers from the equation (apart from needing to attack through them). Finks is good too, but I prefer Halo at the moment. I like the Larks in the side, I had forgotten about them! I think I will replace Mana Tithe with Lark in my SB.
I still prefer Unmake to Crib Swap though, the 1/1 can be a very irritating speed bump, and make the difference between winning a losing in a tight match. Colossus is not that scary, as he can be stopped by spirit tokens while you attack through.
RDW isn't a tribal deck. Mutavault doesn't have any synergistic effects in that deck. Also, it's feature win condition costs RRRRR. The most we need is WWW. It's not a coincidence that all the winning Kithkin decks run 2-4 Mutavaults.
Also, Wheel of the Sun and Moon is a terrible, horrible card.
GB Elves <-man I hate this deck, it has a 50/50 matchup against Tier 1/2 but loses to jank aggro most of the time. UB Faeries <-only reason it's good is because of all those people that's still playing 5CC. WB Tokens <-so boring, there's only 2 ways to play this deck. RB Blightning <-Autopilotting you to victory 0-2 drop.
???B Super Secret Tech <-dude, this thing is nuts! 90/10 against all matchups.
I personally feel that Alec Nezin's list was the best from Nationals, but Aten's was a little more traditional and I think had more to discuss. Here's Nezin's list for reference:
That should be Thistle-Down Liege or whatever in there shouldn't it?
No, it's Wilt-Leaf Liege.
It's a Thoughtseize-proof 4/4 for 4cc. That's pretty good, even if it means giving up Flash and a little synergy. You can also sideboard Kitchen Finks to make it even more fun.
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Thistledown Liege isn't as good as Wilt-Leaf Liege in this format because of the fact that permission isn't as dominant here. With Flash being not as necessary, it's better to play the bigger man in this format, I think.
As for Nezin's decklist, I like it. I'm not sure about the Wheels in the 'board, though. What about Runed Halo instead of them? Runed Halo is great against Demigod Red, and more importantly stops Swans from being able to kill us very easily.
We may need to work in Faerie Macabre if we enact that change, though.
Thistledown Liege isn't as good as Wilt-Leaf Liege in this format because of the fact that permission isn't as dominant here. With Flash being not as necessary, it's better to play the bigger man in this format, I think.
As for Nezin's decklist, I like it. I'm not sure about the Wheels in the 'board, though. What about Runed Halo instead of them? Runed Halo is great against Demigod Red, and more importantly stops Swans from being able to kill us very easily.
We may need to work in Faerie Macabre if we enact that change, though.
I'm all for the Wheel/Runed Halo switch. Really, if your deck has white mana...you should probably run it at least in the SB to combat RDW.
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Dude, waves and enlistment suck. It definately shouldn't be run in KK. Horizons sounds good, but i can think of better ways of spendinding my first 4 mana. So i dunno. Ive been using and testing rise of the hobgoblins. It allows ur guys to play effective combo defense and bide time until u get more card adv. or ways to fly over ftw.
I have been using Kithkin the last 2 times at FNM with mixed results. It has trouble against any established decks that I faced. I actually had to drop last time because it lost the first 2 matches. One big change I would make to the deck is Oblivion Ring for any other removal card. O-rings can take out Teferi's Moat which is the biggest threat to Kithkin aside from Wrath. Another change I made is I only run 1 Liege for confusion and 2 Ajani Goldmane. Ajani can potentialy give your creatures more power then a Liege and give them viligance. I lose the Perfict Mirrorweave target but there are always others ie. Wizened Cenn and most decks you play aginst will have a perfict target (Demigod of Revenge). I dont run the Mutavaults because they cost alot. I also run Goldmeadow Harrier because it can solw down any opponent greatly and is hence a bigger threat then Figure of Destiny is early game. Here is my list that is still being worked on.
Thistledown Liege isn't as good as Wilt-Leaf Liege in this format because of the fact that permission isn't as dominant here. With Flash being not as necessary, it's better to play the bigger man in this format, I think.
Man, I like the Thistledown even tho I see why Wilt-leaf is good.
This is why I like Thistledown.
1. Its a Kithkin. It allows you to reveal for stalwart and clachan. Also gets pumps from cenn to get out to firespout and nameless range.
2.The flash really helps. And not only against control. it allows you to leave mana open to potentially pump figure. They won't be sure how big a boy will be blocking when they attack. You also will have mana to bluff clachan reinforce or cast crib swap, unmake, and maybe even barkshell if it is run (ive been looking into it, but can find anything worthy to take out) also. If you don't use any of the mana, just drop liege EOT, untap and have fun.
But thats just me. The synergy and play skill it allows are my reasons to prefer. People talk about how KK takes no skill to play, and using wilt-leaf only takes more skill out of it.
Nah, its not bad. Lark for heavy creature kill, stillmoon for the mirror and fae, mare for fae, and tender for RDW. Seems sound to me. Cavilear RAPES KK and Fae. More so KK tho. Id prolly go 3 or maybe 2 lark. Plumeveil is good.
True about the inversion, didnt think about that. If u have cenn tho, u may have 2 by then. Also, clachan. I just can't bring myself to run GW liege. Guess its cause Ive grown accustomed to it. And i dont have the GW one.. You make good arguments tho. Think u got me on that one.
Finally! Kithkins are back! And we're not tier 2 anymore!
Woot woot!
I think the reason why thistledown liege is so good is that it can come out of a windbrisk heights or from the hand in combat. If you put a wilt-leaf liege under a heights he'll have to wait until your 2nd main phase to pop out, his kithkin counterpart on the other hand gets in the game when he can still matter and you might even get to mirrorweave out if you have enough mana.
But yeah, I get it that the other liege is bigger I just think that flash helps a lot for kithkin especially when alpha striking and with all the timing.
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:symw:I was born playing aggro:symr:
Currently playing: Standard: :symw:Mirrorweave Kithkin:symw: Extended: :symr:Mono Red Burn:symr: Legacy: :symu::symb::symw::symg:Vial Raffinity:symu::symb::symw::symg: Peasant: :symb:Rogues:symu:
Finally! Kithkins are back! And we're not tier 2 anymore!
Yes, it is. Unstickied decks are Tier 2. The idea of Tier 1.5 is a little lame, actually.
I think the reason why thistledown liege is so good is that it can come out of a windbrisk heights or from the hand in combat. If you put a wilt-leaf liege under a heights he'll have to wait until your 2nd main phase to pop out, his kithkin counterpart on the other hand gets in the game when he can still matter and you might even get to mirrorweave out if you have enough mana.
But yeah, I get it that the other liege is bigger I just think that flash helps a lot for kithkin especially when alpha striking and with all the timing.
I just thought I'd mention that you can play Wilt-Leaf Liege from under Windbrisk Heights at any time during the turn in which you met the conditions, not just your main phase.
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I just thought I'd mention that you can play Wilt-Leaf Liege from under Windbrisk Heights at any time during the turn in which you met the conditions, not just your main phase.
Really? I thought you had to follow the timing restrictions of the card being played. Well then if thats the case Wilt-Leaf Lieges are much better then. Simply bigger.
Also I saw a build running a set of Celestial Crusaders as their secondary lords. Anti-Fae tech I was told. What do you guys think?
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:symw:I was born playing aggro:symr:
Currently playing: Standard: :symw:Mirrorweave Kithkin:symw: Extended: :symr:Mono Red Burn:symr: Legacy: :symu::symb::symw::symg:Vial Raffinity:symu::symb::symw::symg: Peasant: :symb:Rogues:symu:
Really? I thought you had to follow the timing restrictions of the card being played. Well then if thats the case Wilt-Leaf Lieges are much better then. Simply bigger.
Nope. All the Hideaway lands care about is whether or not your met the conditions. Other restrictions, like those attached to Talara's Battalion and Serra Avenger, still apply.
Also I saw a build running a set of Celestial Crusaders as their secondary lords. Anti-Fae tech I was told. What do you guys think?
They aren't bad, but they're also not very good against much of anything else other than Faeries. We have better options, really.
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2 Mutavault
14 Plains
4 Rustic Clachan
4 Windbrisk Heights
Creatures
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Thistledown Liege
4 Wizened Cenn
2 Crib Swap
3 Mirrorweave
4 Spectral Procession
4 Sunlance
2 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Cloudgoat Ranger
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Mana Tithe
2 Oblivion Ring
The decks plays like a typical white weenie deck with a Kithkin tribal theme, but it also utilizes Spectral Procession as a tool against Faeries and as a way to generate more creatures than the opponent. This then allows the Kithkin player to Mirrorweave a Thistledown Liege or a Wilt-Leaf Liege and use the superior board position to push through unblocked with a massive creature. Some builds eschew Mirrorweave in favor of a more consistent aggro playstyle.
Keep all posts on-topic. Decks posted in this thread are to be of similar design and all posts herein are to be related to this archetype. Anything else will be marked as spam.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
Actually, I'm a bit surprised how well this, essentially, block deck translates into Standard. I may be giving this one a try with Merfolk losing favor lately...and losing LoA shortly down the road.
Oh...and welcome back to the Competitive Forum, Kithkin.:)
Courtesy is contagious. Go out and catch some.
<Sigh> My quest for intelligent life on the internet continues.
2x Burrenton Forge Tender
4x Figure of Destiny
4x Goldmeadow Stalwart
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Wizened Cenn
4x Thistledown Liege
Spells (15):
4x Unmake
3x Mirrorweave
4x Spectral Procession
4x Sunlance
4x Rustic Clachan
4x Windbrisk Heights
3x Horizon Canopy
12x Plains
2x Burrenton Forge Tender
3x Runed Halo
3x Wispmare
3x Mana Tithe
4x Faerie Macabre
I believe Unmake to be a superior card to Crib Swap in the deck posted above, and I like to have a more consistent sideboard. I have considered adding the 24th land in place of the 3rd Mirrorweave, but I am not sure about this at the moment, it requires some testing.
The deck is ok in standard, but nowhere near as powerful as in block. Wrath and Damnation are a lot more powerful than removal in block, and the deck loses out to aggro hosers such as Reveillark, and I find it struggles against Demigod RDW too, especially after SB. Blood Knight really helps to tip the scales in their favour.
4x Goldmeadow Stalwart
4x Figure of Destiny
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Wizened Cenn
3x Cloudgoat Ranger
3x Thistledown Liege
Spells:
4x Spectral Procession
4x Mana Tithe
3x Crib Swap
2x Mirrorweave
4x Windbrisk Heights
4x Rustic Clachan
4x Mutavault
13x Plains
4x Burreton Forge-tender
4x Sunlance
3x Runed Halo
2x Wispmare
2x Reveillark
I swarm with the bees and diseases...
The thing is, that Mutavault isn't good in a deck which wants W, WW, and WWW during it's first three turns. I don't run it for the same reason that it isn't run in RDW atm. I find Halo can be very useful as it can be set to Demigod, Mistbind Clique, Cloudthresher, Colossus, etc to remove big finishers from the equation (apart from needing to attack through them). Finks is good too, but I prefer Halo at the moment. I like the Larks in the side, I had forgotten about them! I think I will replace Mana Tithe with Lark in my SB.
I still prefer Unmake to Crib Swap though, the 1/1 can be a very irritating speed bump, and make the difference between winning a losing in a tight match. Colossus is not that scary, as he can be stopped by spirit tokens while you attack through.
What deck runs a CC without trample?
Happy to see W(W/U) Kithkin Mirrormaster back in its rightful place. Good job!
I personally feel that Alec Nezin's list was the best from Nationals, but Aten's was a little more traditional and I think had more to discuss. Here's Nezin's list for reference:
2 Mutavault
14 Plains
4 Rustic Clachan
4 Windbrisk Heights
Creatures
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Wizened Cenn
1 Mirrorweave
4 Spectral Procession
4 Unmake
3 Reveillark
4 Sunlance
4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Wispmare
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
RDW isn't a tribal deck. Mutavault doesn't have any synergistic effects in that deck. Also, it's feature win condition costs RRRRR. The most we need is WWW. It's not a coincidence that all the winning Kithkin decks run 2-4 Mutavaults.
Also, Wheel of the Sun and Moon is a terrible, horrible card.
I swarm with the bees and diseases...
but glad to see kithkin back in the meta.
GB Elves <-man I hate this deck, it has a 50/50 matchup against Tier 1/2 but loses to jank aggro most of the time.
UB Faeries <-only reason it's good is because of all those people that's still playing 5CC.
WB Tokens <-so boring, there's only 2 ways to play this deck.
RB Blightning <-Autopilotting you to
victory0-2 drop.???B Super Secret Tech <-dude, this thing is nuts! 90/10 against all matchups.
That should be Thistle-Down Liege or whatever in there shouldn't it?
And yeah, Windbresk makes this deck and it's incredibly fast with a lot of staying power.
No, it's Wilt-Leaf Liege.
It's a Thoughtseize-proof 4/4 for 4cc. That's pretty good, even if it means giving up Flash and a little synergy. You can also sideboard Kitchen Finks to make it even more fun.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
As for Nezin's decklist, I like it. I'm not sure about the Wheels in the 'board, though. What about Runed Halo instead of them? Runed Halo is great against Demigod Red, and more importantly stops Swans from being able to kill us very easily.
We may need to work in Faerie Macabre if we enact that change, though.
EDH:
UBGThe MimeoplasmUBG
I'm all for the Wheel/Runed Halo switch. Really, if your deck has white mana...you should probably run it at least in the SB to combat RDW.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
Thanks to Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the sig.
4 Windbrisk Heights
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Goldmeadow Stalward
1 Figure of Destiny
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Wizened Cenn
1 Thistledown Liege
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
2 Ajani Goldmane
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Mirrorweave
My sideboard
2 Tividar of Thorn
3 Reveillark
4 Sunlance
4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Man, I like the Thistledown even tho I see why Wilt-leaf is good.
This is why I like Thistledown.
1. Its a Kithkin. It allows you to reveal for stalwart and clachan. Also gets pumps from cenn to get out to firespout and nameless range.
2.The flash really helps. And not only against control. it allows you to leave mana open to potentially pump figure. They won't be sure how big a boy will be blocking when they attack. You also will have mana to bluff clachan reinforce or cast crib swap, unmake, and maybe even barkshell if it is run (ive been looking into it, but can find anything worthy to take out) also. If you don't use any of the mana, just drop liege EOT, untap and have fun.
But thats just me. The synergy and play skill it allows are my reasons to prefer. People talk about how KK takes no skill to play, and using wilt-leaf only takes more skill out of it.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the sig.
Nah, its not bad. Lark for heavy creature kill, stillmoon for the mirror and fae, mare for fae, and tender for RDW. Seems sound to me. Cavilear RAPES KK and Fae. More so KK tho. Id prolly go 3 or maybe 2 lark. Plumeveil is good.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the sig.
The Cenn dies to Firespout, then the 3 damage on the Liege makes it die too. Also, if it's Nameless Inversion'd it's not a Kithkin anymore and dies.
I swarm with the bees and diseases...
Thanks to Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the sig.
Woot woot!
I think the reason why thistledown liege is so good is that it can come out of a windbrisk heights or from the hand in combat. If you put a wilt-leaf liege under a heights he'll have to wait until your 2nd main phase to pop out, his kithkin counterpart on the other hand gets in the game when he can still matter and you might even get to mirrorweave out if you have enough mana.
But yeah, I get it that the other liege is bigger I just think that flash helps a lot for kithkin especially when alpha striking and with all the timing.
Credit to Zaphod of High~Light Studios for the awesome Sig and Avvy!
Currently playing:
Standard: :symw:Mirrorweave Kithkin:symw:
Extended: :symr:Mono Red Burn:symr:
Legacy: :symu::symb::symw::symg:Vial Raffinity:symu::symb::symw::symg:
Peasant: :symb:Rogues:symu:
Yes, it is. Unstickied decks are Tier 2. The idea of Tier 1.5 is a little lame, actually.
I just thought I'd mention that you can play Wilt-Leaf Liege from under Windbrisk Heights at any time during the turn in which you met the conditions, not just your main phase.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!
Really? I thought you had to follow the timing restrictions of the card being played. Well then if thats the case Wilt-Leaf Lieges are much better then. Simply bigger.
Also I saw a build running a set of Celestial Crusaders as their secondary lords. Anti-Fae tech I was told. What do you guys think?
Credit to Zaphod of High~Light Studios for the awesome Sig and Avvy!
Currently playing:
Standard: :symw:Mirrorweave Kithkin:symw:
Extended: :symr:Mono Red Burn:symr:
Legacy: :symu::symb::symw::symg:Vial Raffinity:symu::symb::symw::symg:
Peasant: :symb:Rogues:symu:
Nope. All the Hideaway lands care about is whether or not your met the conditions. Other restrictions, like those attached to Talara's Battalion and Serra Avenger, still apply.
They aren't bad, but they're also not very good against much of anything else other than Faeries. We have better options, really.
Read my Constructed column on Star City, Thirst for Knowledge!
View my MTGS-era TFK articles here!