Theres a guy on forums.Starcitygames.com talking about banning reflecting pool

[ThatStoryTeller120]

http://forums.starcitygames.com/view...069747916a9196

My mistake posting it in the Rumor mill, but if you think about it, it has enough potential for change in the future of the game, which is what this forum section is about...it would seem.

Nonetheless, move it if my mis-post is a hinderance.

I was doing event coverage at the final Grand Prix of the Block Constructed season and beforehand I was very interested in seeing what did well because I thought it would massively define the Standard format after Time Spiral and Coldsnap rotate out. What I saw worried me slightly, and I want to share why.

Reflecting Pool, Vivid Grove, Cryptic Command

I'm going to make a bunch of broad statements and assumptions here, so try to follow me. Please bear in mind through all this that I've played this game for 15 years and understands that you can't ever 100% predict the future. With that in mind I'm talking broad brush strokes but I think that each of my assumptions is clear and well thought out, and that it leads to a logical conclusion (which other observers at Rimini agreed with, incidentally). I'd like to be wrong and hope to find that everything works out great, but I'm not sure it will.

Here we go:

1) The current standard format is dominated by Lorwyn/Shadowmoor.
At Grand Prix-Rimini half the matches you watched could easily have been Standard instead of Block, there's so little from Time Spiral/Coldsnap in the current standard. Wall of Roots, Rune Snag, a couple of Teferi, a couple of Mystical Teachings... aside from RDW and Reveillark the decks in Standard are 90% Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. I understand a lot of you will argue the toss but I think you have to accept that it's fundamentally true - Time Spiral and it's cards are all over the place, obviously, but the dominant cards come from Lorwyn/Shadowmoor even in the decks that play Time Spiral cards heavily (FoD, Demigod, Gouger, Javelin in RDW for instance, and Reveillark and Runed Halo in, well, Reveillark).

2) The defining card in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block constructed is Reflecting Pool.
There is no doubt about this. Right now there are two cards in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor and you play one or the other - you either play Figure of Destiny or Reflecting Pool. Aside from the Kithkin and RDW decks EVERY OTHER DECK is best as a five-colour deck. I saw 5-colour Faeries, 5-colour Fish, 5-colour Elementals, 5-colour control, 5-colour Doran, and 5-colour Elves. You could 5-colour everything, and there was basically no compelling reason not to because the mana was never EVER an issue. It's not that these 5-colour decks took losses now and then because of their mana base - they didn't - it worked perfectly well with five colours just as much as it did for the Kithkin that played mono. At Rimini not one of the 700 players at the event asked the dealers for Mutavaults. Not one! When a card as good as Mutavault is sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring something is going wrong.

3) Without Magus of the Moon (or a similar card appearing in Alara) most decks in the new standard will be five-coloured
Bottom line: this is true. It's already true in Block Constructed and adding painlands into the potential land mix only helps people construct strong manabases around Reflecting Pool. As stated the only reason NOT to be 5 colour is that it makes it hard to ramp Figure of Destiny to a 4/4 in 3 turns, and also makes it a little harder to cast Spectral Procession and Flame Javelin. Short of them reprinting something like Price of Progress I think we're heading into a five colour format.

4) Shards of Alara will not encourage mono-coloured decks.
The theme of Shards is 3-colour 'Shards'. The idea being that you pick a shard and play cards from that shard. The two 'mono' decks, RDW and Kithkin, aren't likely to pick up many toys from Shards and may have to join the other decks in playing 5 colours as well. Shards plays into the hands and manabases of Lorwyn/Shadowmoor constructed, and won't act to move decks back to being based around one, two, or even three colours. It's too easy to play five colours and there is almost no reason NOT to play five colours in any deck.

5) Shards of Alara is a small set and is unlikely to transform Standard.
Shards will be 20% of the new card pool (ignoring Tenth Ed because there's always a basic set and it doesn't contribute much), which isn't much at all - Time Spiral was 35% when it rotated in, for instance. Considering how powerful the cards in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block are it will take something really special in those extra 200 new cards (when you discount basic lands and reprints) to shake the format up. With ANY existing standard deck able to play ANY card it wants from Shards of Alara it's more likely to be a case of slotting improvements into existing deck designs. Obviously this could change depending on what is printed, but from what I've seen from Shards so far there's nothing to stop people playing 5-colour decks and simply picking all the best spells.

6) New Standard will therefore probably look like Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Block Constructed
Any entirely new creations will have to be EXTREMELY good to survive against a Faeries deck that has already dominated Standard for 9 months and just got a lot better when Magus of the Moon left so it can play all 5 colours (in the Semis of Rimini that meant Faeries was playing Doran on turn 3, for instance. Doran!). Or the Quick N Toast deck that's been around for 6 months, or the Kithkin/Doran/Elves decks that have proven themselves time and time and time again and have lost almost nothing in the rotation and potentially gained a couple of new tricks from Shards. Sure, something new will come up, but the simple numbers are against any new archetype... if you're playing 'an Esper deck' you're basing your deck on the 20% Shard of a set that is 20% of the card pool. The chances that you're going to beat the deck that's proven to be successful using 80% of the card pool and added the best cards from your Shard anyway are almost nil.

7) Ban Reflecting Pool in standard.
Grand Prix-Rimini looked, to me, like a Black Constructed format in trouble. Yes there was an incredible diversity of decktypes, but they were ALL playing 4 Reflecting Pool and a bunch of Vivid lands that they never actually had to remove any counters from because the Reflecting Pool does all the hard work. When every deck is five colours and every deck is managing to pay UUU for Cryptic Command as well as the GG for Chameleon Colossus, the R for Firespout, the B for Nameless Inversion and the W for Crib Swap/Sygg/Doran don't we have a problem? It makes the Fish deck play 16 cards the same as the Doran deck and the Faeries deck. Moreover it makes the Shards from Alara entirely irrelevent. While Alara may be divided into five for the storyline, in deck design terms every single deck will be playing with the United Colors of Alara. That's bad.

Ban Reflecting Pool because:
- five colours is easily available with minimal or no drawback
- it allows all the best cards to be played with each other regardless of casting cost, and regardless of deck type or theme
- Cryptic Command is overplayed as a result, because UUU isn't hard to get. Chameleon Colossus isn't far behind and Namless Inversion is as ubiquitous as Swords to Plowshares used to be.
- it is likely to restrict the impact of Shards of Alara to playing only a 'guest star' role in existing decks
- there are no other adequate controls on use of non-basic lands
- it's less impacting than banning all five Vivid lands instead (although that is a viable option)

Now, having said that, can we all please prove this theory wrong after Alara is further spoiled, because I have a strong feeling that the 'bounty of standard power cards' is not going to completely define the format so much that everything any competitive player ever plays is a 5c deck.

Truthfully, when I first saw what was comming out of the spoiler information we began to get, I was afraid that nothing new would really show up competitive-wise, that fear was quickly quelled when Zesty234 came with his rumors (his thought process about how to bring the spoilers to us was entertaining on its own) but this Ban on reflecting pool idea makes me think that most competitive players are prone to be deceived into a linear sort of thinking.

[Seth Dracovitch]

While that argument is quite thought out...

To me that's one of the saddest things I've ever read... Yes, let's ban reflecting pool because it helps multicolor decks! Alara will suck for cmpetitive play! LOR/SHA will dominate! *Rolls eyes*

Seriously, in my opinion this is a load of crap, I can't believe someone actually took the time towrite all that... once again SCG fails.

[ludd_gang]

I don't play standard anymore, but that seems kinda silly. If there is a diversity of decktypes, why would a banning be warranted? I don't see the issue?

Maybe the Fulminator will become more popular?

[Solmancer]

My response on this is somewhat simple:

If Enduring Renewal didn't break the format, I don't see Reflecting Pool being anywhere close to banning. Sure, it has incredible helpers in the format right now, but it's nowhere near as abuseable or was as abused as Enduring Renewal. Really good and prominent? Yes. Degenerate? I really doubt it.

[Shinjutsei]

Absurd.

If they didn't ban Mutavault, Tarmogoyf, or Bitterblossom, why on EARTH would they ban Reflecting Pool?

[ThatStoryTeller120]

his post is entirely speculation, but it does pose a possibility if things progress in Post-Alara as he stated. I dont think it could be as big a thing as banning top in extended, but the fact that I want to prove his post-alara speculation wrong still holds reason for my post.

[Brian]

Reflecting pool is used in nearly 80% of the t2 tier 1 decks. It is like skullclamp basically, not enough drawbacks, and its used in every deck.

It should be banned because of this.

[Shinny Shinny]

Originally Posted by Seth Dracovitch

While that argument is quite thought out...

To me that's one of the saddest things I've ever read... Yes, let's ban reflecting pool because it helps multicolor decks! Alara will suck for cmpetitive play! LOR/SHA will dominate! *Rolls eyes*

Seriously, in my opinion this is a load of crap, I can't believe someone actually took the time towrite all that... once again SCG fails.

you read my thoughts.

i mean you ban a card because it creates unbalanced play. because it creates an environment where basically...if you dont play it, you lose.

banning a card because it makes ALL the colors accessible is nonsense.

That guy probably wishes he could still play a straight red goblin deck or something.

[carrolln]

I follow the logic, but I was under the impression that Reflecting Pool is the one card that will prevent Standard from being dominated by LOR/SHM. The main draw-back of the Alara cards is the intense mana-cost (like how we see with Doran). The fact that Reflecting Pool is in the format will assist the power of Alara to come to the forefront by making the draw-back much less of a hinderance.

The meta is still diverse. Sure, there are a few stand-out decks that you see in the top-8's, but it is not characterized by one completely dominate deck and "the answers" to that one deck. The format is still fun, and I think it will be even more fun and diverse once Alara comes about. Well, provided that Reflecting Pool isn't banned.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Shinjutsei

Absurd.

If they didn't ban Mutavault, Tarmogoyf, or Bitterblossom, why on EARTH would they ban Reflecting Pool?

Because mutavault can be a double edged sword. It can be killed with a nameless for example and hurt you, further because mutavault cant be utizilized in every deck, because there are many multicolor decks, with reflecting pool however it is much easier to put in mutavaults.

Tarmogoyf is green, so its only used in green decks, same with bitterblossum and black.

Like divining top and skullclamp they can be utilized in almost any extended deck if they were legal, its the same way with reflecting pool.

[MajoraX]

Reflecting Pool doesn't just help 5 color decks. It makes them easier and more beneficial to play than mono color. This not only makes for a stagnant meta, but it violates the fundamental principles that Magic is based on.

[/ban]

EDIT: Or, better to start printing LOTS of nonbasic hate.

[Agiussword]

i think a better option rather than banning the pool, would to print more cards that punish using that route. ruination, back to basics, price of progress and the like do a good job of punishing those who use the nonbasics, while cards that give greater benefit to using basic lands will help keep the use of nonbasics down.

i agree that there is a problem with being able to run a 5 color deck with out problem. while a 5 color deck should be feasible, the meta is problematic at best. It really takes away integral parts to the game, at least in my opinion, when your lands alone allow absolute mana fixing for a 5 color deck. Back in Invasion, you had to use a variety of things to fix your mana, and it balanced the meta out.

i dont believe the pool should be banned, but i do believe something should be done about this. Alara will probably only make things worse with its multi colored nature

[ThatStoryTeller120]

@ Brian- I really dont think a banning is what is necessary though. In all honesty I truly think that a similar innovation that sligh decks founded an opening with in the age of slower games could be discovered in enough time that reflecting pool doesnt LOOK like such the big deal this MagicDave guy makes it out to be.

he thinks every deck will be 'assimilated' (sorry) into 5c control, and I think hes blowing this out of proportion

Im just saying "look at what this guy is saying, if you want to prove him wrong, what evidence are you presenting?"

[Brian]

Originally Posted by ThatStoryTeller120

@ Brian- I really dont think a banning is what is necessary though. In all honesty I truly think that a similar innovation that sligh decks founded an opening with in the age of slower games could be discovered in enough time that reflecting pool doesnt LOOK like such the big deal this MagicDave guy makes it out to be.

he thinks every deck will be 'assimilated' (sorry) into 5c control, and I think hes blowing this out of proportion

Im just saying "look at what this guy is saying, if you want to prove him wrong, what evidence are you presenting?"

Mirrodin block we had to ban artifact lands, although decks can utilize without breaking them such as ironworks, this card is similar for t2. You almost HAVE to run in in a competitive t2 deck to be efficient. Which is why it should be banned. Sure artifact removal that was efficient was printed first in mirrodin sets but it didn't do enough damage to matter. Same here.

[Iserp]

I don't think Reflecting Pool is a problem. It never was back in Tempest; but then, you didn't have zilliond of color fixing in standard. I thought that we went over the top into Ravnica, but then Time Spiral and Lorwyn proved me that the top was much higher

Anyway, i still don't think it is Reflecting Pool's fault (or vivid lands for that case), but filterlands which are so damn consistent.

I've been advocating the reprint of Wasteland, so that monocolor aggro can exist, and would stop this madness.

However, if they don't do anything about it, it is not such a problem. There's still lot of diversity (and fun) from decks; you just have to forget about colors and color pie.