At the Gathering: Best of Lucky, Part 2

[Teflon_Jeff]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, At the Gathering: Best of Lucky, Part 2. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[Xwt]

Some things you say in this article are things I've either heard or read elsewhere in the last 2 years, but that makes them neither any less true nor any less pertinent. I've came to realise how I started off as a noob to then become the guy who wins or top 8ths in tournaments, and it's thanks to people advising me of getting rid of my imaginary set of rules in which I was playing that I got to become better. It was for sure a good read for the spike, though probably somehow shocking for the intended audience.

Good stuff, keep on writing.

[shadowhunter483]

You know I can actually say that I started out as a noob. I would build deck and tried to win because they were clever and new. Now I've improved to a point in which I can do well at what few events I go to. Great article Jeff. Keep up the good work.

[gregiscool14]

Definitely influenced by David Sirlin

[zurran]

wow, i've never heard someone complain this much about complaining in an article. this is by far the worst yet. Its a direct ignorance to bad magic players. If your gonna complain about playing don't play. If they think their treated unfair they don't have to play at all. It called good sportsmanship and if a player doesn't have it or the desire to better his game he wasting his money playing the game in the first place. because he obviously is not having fun to start with.

[Mabus7]

A very good article keep writing them

[Dannemann]

First of all... wow, great article. I really enjoy articles on game theory, and how to become a better player. Especially part 1 of this article, but just had to comment on this one.

I myself started out a newb (don´t we all), playing a lot of casual. Then I was a n00b for a long time, playing by the same casual standards in a competitive enviroment, and losing a lot.

Then I 'woke up', got a grip on my ego, and started playing to win, playing with a good deck instead of a fun one. This was also when I started learning from my mistakes, and playing a tighter, more controlled, game. At one point I was like 20-1-2 in sanctioned matches with this one deck, and I really enjoyed it, despite people complaining. People have also started asking me for help building their decks and asking advise on how to play them, as I'm one of the more experienced players in the local environment, and I enjoy helping the younger players improve.

But now I just don't have the time to play competitively anymore (playtesting really do take A LOT of time), and I just started playing the fun decks again at FMN's (Mutavault is great with a Sunrise Sovereign in play), and am generally enjoying myself and the game again.
I really love it, because when I beat the players I helped build competitive decks, they ask me how I can win with a 'bad deck', and I can help them with their play-mistakes and deckbuilding.

My question is: What do you call a gamer like me, who play to have fun, but isn't exactly casual, and isn't a n00b anymore..? I'm actually not the only one in my playgroup like this, but the other just draft a lot, instead of playing constructed

PS: Sorry if the grammar and spelling is off, english isn't my first language

[Skyweir]

An interesting topic, but like Sirlin you seem to have a strange hatred for people who do not enjoy playing the game like you do.

Classifying people as n00bs because they do not play an all out, cuthroat way is frankly a bit insulting, just as when I call people that play the way you do all the time boring and unimgainative. I try not to do that to often (unless they call me a n00b), because I know these people gets something else out of the game than I do. To each his/her own.

I know what makes a very good competitive magic deck, and a what makes a very good competitive magic player. I just choose not to do most of it, because that would take away from the stuff I find fun.

If something is recognized as the clearly best deck, then I find it boring to play with. It has already been deeply explored, what is the attraction? I come to tournaments to have fun and meet people, and to see what others have come up with of new stuff (sadly, mostly nothing). I try not to act as if every Magic game is the end all, be all of my gaming life.
Fewer and fewer people seem to think like that, and it is weaking gaming hobbies as a whole.

I blame David Sirlin and his flawed and destructive philosphy myself. But I try to refrain from calling people that read him and agree with him names, even on the internet.

Lastly, I find it a bit sad that anyone would think that it is fine to find plesure in other things than winning when you are a "newb", but once you have played awhile you should understand that Magic is SERIOUS stuff....it's not as if we are playing a game.

[bateleur]

Originally Posted by Skyweir

Classifying people as n00bs because they do not play an all out, cuthroat way is frankly a bit insulting

Or is it? It seems to me that what the author is highlighting is an innate conflict of interest within some players. On the one hand they want to win and become frustrated at their inability to do so and maybe even angry at their opponents or at certain cards. But on the other hand they hold to ideas about deckbuilding and competitive play which hold them back from achieving the wins they want.

People play Magic for different reasons. Personally I hope I never have the kind of approach to gaming that the author does, but many players do. The advice in this article is valuable to such players. It helps them to avoid pitfalls which will only make them miserable and will do nobody any good.

As for the rest of us, these crazy tournament players do us a lot of good. They'll buy a single copy of some boring card for $10 and then sell us an awesome rare for 50 cents! Crazy people! And they spend loads of money so that Wizards can maintain an entire team making our game for us. Everyone wins!

[The Ice King]

One of the few articles i hav ever read and to be honest, i think you did i really good job. Keep up the good work Jeffy!

[arcane7828]

Originally Posted by bateleur

Or is it? It seems to me that what the author is highlighting is an innate conflict of interest within some players. On the one hand they want to win and become frustrated at their inability to do so and maybe even angry at their opponents or at certain cards. But on the other hand they hold to ideas about deckbuilding and competitive play which hold them back from achieving the wins they want.

People play Magic for different reasons. Personally I hope I never have the kind of approach to gaming that the author does, but many players do. The advice in this article is valuable to such players. It helps them to avoid pitfalls which will only make them miserable and will do nobody any good.

As for the rest of us, these crazy tournament players do us a lot of good. They'll buy a single copy of some boring card for $10 and then sell us an awesome rare for 50 cents! Crazy people! And they spend loads of money so that Wizards can maintain an entire team making our game for us. Everyone wins!

You know bateleur, I too am not the kind of player the author is... nor hope to be... so the article felt a little like a rant. Kudos for the look into the internal conflict however. I too had that conflict and came to the conclusion that I am playing for fun so I win or lose with a smile(the author is alright with that ).

I quoted you because you put together my feelings for the article so eloquently and pleasantly

[frogbs]

Hmmm...I didnt really get the point. So it is basically a complaint article against bad Magic players? The only advice I get is to A) play good decks, B) adapt to beat players who only play one deck, and C) don't complain when you lose?

Does any magic player really not know these things?

[AmenazainCreible]

Well, Ill second (or third?) the same thing as the dudes above say: I hope that I never be the kind of player the author is.

I play to win (at least i try to), but I rejoice when I am defeated by new players. Be it because I drew 5 lands in a row, I commited a play error o they simply bested with skill my all-rare deck with they all-common deck (that doesnt happen to be bad at all). I like to see the smile on their faces thinking: "wow, I defeated someone". Maybe that victory isnt actually helping them to become better players, but at least keeps them interested in the game. Someday they will become pro-players? Maybe...

Also the article hits hard on the casual player. When I started t play, I used to play in some gardens in the college. I played a precon "ivory doom" deck adapted with R, G and U splashes and only 18 lands (yeah, what a noob), and my friends played similar decks. We didnt have those "special rules" and it was fun, no mather the bad plays, bad decks, or whatever, it was really fun. Then one day, some dude aproached asking if he could play, we agrred, and he joined our caos multiplayer match and played a full of counters and rude awakening. He started to eliminate one by one of us, until I alone remained. For some unknown reason i had a pair of defense grid that I played when the dude was tapped after eliminating my last friend. Turns later i won via a Doubtless one and starlit sanctum. That dude, enraged, took his things, laughing maniacally and crying at how noob we were, and parted, never to return. Until this day Im convinced that he was the noob.

On the other hand I really hate players that complain when they loose. Sadly, at least in my area, that kind of players arent limited to the "noobs" who play crap decks, but are also self proclaimed "pros" who test daylly, are netdecking fanboys, and so. Some of them are really good players with low (or nule) sportmanship, some others are bad players with money to waste on fancy rares. They do nothing to help the community, they only point fingers, and calls you a "noob" if you loose, if you win, if you get "lucky"... it is almost if you were playing in MWS.


Finally on the article, I think the part one was really good, this one tough, really seems like a rant.

I always play to win, but also play for the fun of the game, as it should ever be.

[xepel]

I play for fun. Winning is fun too, but I like to win while playing a *fun* deck, a deck *I* have built.

Sure, I would probably win FNM quite a bit if I played Faeries every week - the other players know I have skill, but that I don't play the "good" decks. But it's not as fun to win with some netdeck as it is to win with my own creation. It's a Pyrrhic victory - sure I've won, but at what cost to my ideals?

I know some people don't have those ideals. They don't have fun except when they're winning. I'm sure the author is one of those, by his rant against "bad players" (who are bad simply because they don't play the best deck). I don't like playing against those people - they really suck the fun out of the game. And this is a game, remember. At the end of the night, there is only one winner, so if everyone had this attitude, the vast majority of people will be unhappy. Thankfully there are plenty of people who play to have fun, at least for now. They make the game far more enjoyable to everyone.

[azngenius]

Originally Posted by gregiscool14

Definitely influenced by David Sirlin

Agree. The moment I read the line " the n00b has created imaginary rules to the game, and is playing the game according to these rules." I thought about Sirlin's "Playing to Win" article.