This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, A Distinct Take on Casual Magic. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
For example Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, Strip Mine, and Demonic Tutor have all gone the way of the "old-school" of Magic: they are aggressively, disruptively, and deceptively powerful despite their simplistic, common, or staple nature. One mana for three damage that isn't repeatable seems fair until you fully understand that it not only kills most creatures and forces your opponent to play like he starts at 17 life (if he drops to 3, it's over), but that it's so cheap for its effect you never feel like it's a hard choice whether to use it or not; it warps other players' games around it.
This is a matter of opinion. Lightning Bolt is strong, but the many analogues that are frequently printed should show that 1 red mana for 3 damage is hardly overpowered (at least, not nearly as much as say Strip Mine, Counterspell, or Demonic Tutor). Take Rift Bolt for instance. It, like Lightning Bolt, kills most creatures and can force your opponent to play as if he was at 17. It can't be as reactively awesome as Lightning Bolt, halting Auras or countering Giant Growths, but in basic terms it is very similar. I think R&D could probably print a sorcery version of Lightning Bolt and it wouldn't break anything.
Newer players may not understand (or fear) that playing on the draw against a deck that lays down turn one Island, turn two Island, then passes the turn means counters are not going to let any awesome spells play out this game. When you see someone tap a Swamp and something on turn two, playing the best tutor in the game, you know that something mean is coming your way turn three.
I'd agree with your analysis of Counterspell and Demonic Tutor though. Cheap counters gain mass the way burn does, but there are far fewer ways to fight through counters (especially when you're new). If your opponent has plentiful burn, well you know you can play with protection from red creatures and pack some lifegain (especially recurring lifegain). You might still lose when they have a fast hand, but you'll stand a better chance in the long game. On the other hand, its hard to speed decks up to face counters and there are very few creatures printed with "Cannot be countered" on them. Also, fetching your best card for 1 or 2 mana (even if shocks you) is decidedly overpowered.
I like your article but I think you've coated a little too much vitriol on the ending. When I was a new player I wanted to see those moxen in action, curious as to why they were worth so much and what could be done with so much power. I held little idea that I would actually defeat such a deck.
Nothing can really restrict an uber spike from being an uber spike. You think limiting the card pool to just commons will make games longer? Not hardly. Play with some of the folks at paupermagic.com for a while and you'll see they construct fearsome decks capable of winning very quickly or exerting control just as tightly as a typical standard deck.
I think every player, casual or otherwise, likes to experiment at one point or another with making the best deck they possibly can. Maybe its a burn deck with their best red cards, or a stompy deck with their favorite green creatures. Regardless, it is, in their mind and with their budget, their strongest deck. Depending on who you are, you might take it apart or tweak it over the years, opting to create new, more fun decks filled with 1-ofs, or to go on to tournaments and find stronger cards.
While I do see the value of what u are saying, I have to agree with technik4 that not all new players aim to become friendly, casual players. I have actually come across many aspiring uber spikes(to quote a term) who start off rather agressively. I guess at the end of the day casual players have to seek out other casual players, or simply have to deal with the fact that their decks, how ever much they may adore them, are not built to win games. I know a guy who is obssessed with life gaining albeit without the invocation of infinite loop combos. The game definitely has a space for one to channel one's more peculiar tastes in effect, but whether this will reap any pleasure or sufficient entertainment is(I believe) ultimately reliant on his or her gaming environment.
I thought the article was excellent. Being the seller of mtg cards at the local shop, I see allmost every day I am there, examples of the types of people you mentioned and the unfortunate interactions between the die-hard always-gotta-win players and the newer or more casual players. These sorts of players really do suck the fun right out of the game, and most often they dont even realize they are doing this because they dont/cannot understand other people's feelings. They see themselves as having fun, and that is all they care about, and they get angry or confused when people all of a sudden no longer will play them. These are also the same sorts of people that will put down other's decks making comments like "who plays that?" or "thats a horrible card" when those cards just beat them. They are both sore winners and sore losers. Thankfully such players for us are few and far between, and even our best tournament players have a casual side to them, and are capable of playing without having to win (having friends who prefer casual play helps out with this a lot I have noticed).
One type of player that makes my head hurt, is the type of player that really really wants to win, gets irritated or angry when they dont win, and yet want to play with something different from the norm. "Net Decking" is basically a bad word when it comes to most casual players or this type of player, as they want to make or see unique decks, but at the same time also want to be able to win against the best decks with those unique decks. The net result is these players end up putting lots of effort into making their particular deck better, using often subpar cards, and then eventually get burned out and give up (at least for a while) when this seemingly flawed strategy doesnt work. Basically I call this group the casual players that want to prove badly that they can be as good as the best tournament players without bowing to the temptation to use a "netdeck" to win with.
I personally dislike tournament magic, in that Im not a big fan of all the pressure and such that go into such a situation. Im a casual player through and through, though I havent really played much of any magic for a couple years now, since I started selling at the shop I sell at, and went back to school to finish up my bachelors. To this day my most fun deck, was this green monstrosity from back during tempest/urza block when I was getting back into the game again after a long absense. It was like a 100-120 card deck, and it was built around producing tons of mana and gaining tons of life if left to its own devises. Our magic group, who all were getting back into magic at that time had limited supplies of cards (I had the most at the time), so to make things even, they would play me 2 on 1, or 3 on 1, or even a couple times, 4 on 1 (now THOSE were epic games). I still would win, though usually barely and with lifeswings in the 100's each turn, but eventually they got better and started using disruption and mass removal, and thus our gameplay evolved and balanced out as it inevitably should once the cardpools expand and people evolve their gameplay to react to the other decks being played. Some of them stayed as casual players, others moved on to die-hard tournament players when they had the time.
Once again, thanks for the article, and here is hopeing we can get our EDH league going, seems to be our biggest up and coming format right now.
This is a matter of opinion. Lightning Bolt is strong, but the many analogues that are frequently printed should show that 1 red mana for 3 damage is hardly overpowered (at least, not nearly as much as say Strip Mine, Counterspell, or Demonic Tutor). Take Rift Bolt for instance. It, like Lightning Bolt, kills most creatures and can force your opponent to play as if he was at 17. It can't be as reactively awesome as Lightning Bolt, halting Auras or countering Giant Growths, but in basic terms it is very similar. I think R&D could probably print a sorcery version of Lightning Bolt and it wouldn't break anything.
Rift Bolt is even slower than a sorcery speed Lightning Bolt and it was played very heavily. I don't think the power issue lies with speed but the combination of cost (very cheap) and amount of damage. While it may seem like a small difference between two and three, it really is significant in Magic.
Incinerate and it's ugly cousin Volcanic Hammer receive(d) ton of play when they are (were) the viable options. Even at CMC 2, three damage is still very effective. To put a different spin on it (starting life is 20): 20/2 (Shock) == 10; 20/3 (Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, etc...) ~== 7. That is the numerical issue I see underlying old bolt, and it is what forms the bassi for my opinion.
And, yes, I do have a play set that I use from time to time.
I like your article but I think you've coated a little too much vitriol on the ending. When I was a new player I wanted to see those moxen in action, curious as to why they were worth so much and what could be done with so much power. I held little idea that I would actually defeat such a deck.
Nothing can really restrict an uber spike from being an uber spike. You think limiting the card pool to just commons will make games longer? Not hardly. Play with some of the folks at paupermagic.com for a while and you'll see they construct fearsome decks capable of winning very quickly or exerting control just as tightly as a typical standard deck.
I can't beat around the bush: my end statement is a bit too saucy. I let some frustration seep into it but if anyone were to disregard the conclusion the article moves to based solely on that alone it would be foolish.
I used to be an uber Spike. What stopped me was the social forces that resulted from my behavior: I repeatedly squashed my friends and lost some as a result. I changed things up and matured past "OMG! LOL! TEH EPIC WIN 4 ME!!!1" and into "Heh. Nailed you that time." I stopped trying to beat everything and, even though this causes me to lose pretty regularly, began to enjoy the interaction around the game.
The "Rules of Engagement" is just a rough way to get a heads up if somebody is going to be fun to play against (regardless of whether or not you win) or agonizing to play against. If you've played Standard in the past few months you are well aware of the "issue" that Faeries presented. It wasn't that Faeries couldn't be beaten, it was that so little could actually beat Faeries. Pidgeon-holing the meta like that was not as awful as Ravaffinity was (I was there), but close enough. When there are only three (or so) decks that made up a Rock-Paper-Scissors meta (Faeries, 5C Control, and Kithkin/Elfball) the game gets somewhat stale. Rotation has changed things since but, even so, these decks hold much of their previous power now.
I thought the article was excellent. Being the seller of mtg cards at the local shop, I see allmost every day I am there, examples of the types of people you mentioned and the unfortunate interactions between the die-hard always-gotta-win players and the newer or more casual players. These sorts of players really do suck the fun right out of the game, and most often they dont even realize they are doing this because they dont/cannot understand other people's feelings. They see themselves as having fun, and that is all they care about, and they get angry or confused when people all of a sudden no longer will play them. These are also the same sorts of people that will put down other's decks making comments like "who plays that?" or "thats a horrible card" when those cards just beat them. They are both sore winners and sore losers. Thankfully such players for us are few and far between, and even our best tournament players have a casual side to them, and are capable of playing without having to win (having friends who prefer casual play helps out with this a lot I have noticed).
Thanks! I'm glad that I'm not (completely) alone in my experiences with Magic in a community.
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
Rift Bolt is almost a sorcery speed Lightning Bolt that has Kicker 2: if the kicker cost was paid you may play this anytime you may play an instant, and it was played very heavily. I don't think the power issue lies with speed but the combination of cost (very cheap) and amount of damage. While it may seem like a small difference between two and three, it really is significant in Magic.
Rift Bolt is a Sorcery and can only be played as an instant if you have Vedalken Orrery or something like that in play.
Rift Bolt is a Sorcery and can only be played as an instant if you have Vedalken Orrery or something like that in play.
As for the article, nice job!
G'ah! Sorry about that; I fixed my statement (fortunately it didn't generate a contradiction to my point there). After enough time of staring at cards they all start to bleed together.
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
This is a matter of opinion. Lightning Bolt is strong, but the many analogues that are frequently printed should show that 1 red mana for 3 damage is hardly overpowered (at least, not nearly as much as say Strip Mine, Counterspell, or Demonic Tutor). Take Rift Bolt for instance. It, like Lightning Bolt, kills most creatures and can force your opponent to play as if he was at 17. It can't be as reactively awesome as Lightning Bolt, halting Auras or countering Giant Growths, but in basic terms it is very similar. I think R&D could probably print a sorcery version of Lightning Bolt and it wouldn't break anything.
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They did, and even gave it a drawback. 3 damage at one mana, to any target is too powerful : chain lightning
I have a couple decks, and one compeitive deck. I Like to win like everybody else although i don't play my uberdecks tha often because i like even games, I like it when i'm hanging by a thread and then Boom i alomst win lol. For me its all about the Challenge of playing a Fair game, the intense close calls and wins from devastation are always my most memoriable, even if winning every game is fun for me it gets quickly boring cuz with out a challenge whats the point of even playing.
Your article is kind of inflammatory... ever thought part of what makes spikes unfriendly is articles like this and your own opinion upon meeting one? I am about as Uber spike as amateurs get with a GP day 2 and PTQ top 8 and 1900 limited and constructed rating. However i tend not to be a jerk to my opponents as they are just trying to enjoy the game the same as me. Locally its all about fun. I step into a big tourney i turn spike but not ass. IDK just seems like if you come into a situation thinking you arent going to get along with a "spike" you wont for sure.
Casual players are turning Spikes into the boogey man of mtg. The truth is the reason spikes have a rep for being asshats is because bullies=overly competitive people. BUT competitive people=/= bullies.
Actually, I would argue that most Spikes get their reputation from themselves. If you're not being mean-spirited then this article doesn't impact you.
I didn't make a blanket statement "All Spike tournament players are jerks." or mean to convey that: those who are jerks and intentionally bring mean-spirited decks to bear are the "uber-Spike" type mentioned in the comments above. I know a lot of tournament players who are cool(er than me) and some who are very unkind. It's the unkind that people tend to remember.
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
I don't really play against solid tourney-decks very often, so it's kind of fun to play one of my crap decks against a super-competitive deck and see how close I get to winning.
In those situations, I lose about 65 % of the time, but that other 35 % I get to say:
"THAT'S RIGHT, HOMARID WARRIOR FTW ! HOW YOU LIKE ME NOW MOTHERF*****?" and then I flip the table over.
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Decks I'm working on:
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
I stopped reading when you started on about casual players hating to sit down against land destruction and elfball decks, like they were both competative strategies. Focused LD is dead as of extended rotation and elfball has never been competative. It can sneak some wins in, but more than anything, elfball is casual - by definition of your article. I really dislike when people who don't know what they're talking about write biased articles.
Anyways, what I dislike even more is whenever a casual player starts building a black deck, then throw in four copies of dark ritual. Everyone has done this when they started playing. You see this all the time. Now, said casual player gets pissed off when I use strip mine or wasteland or port to shut down his land base when dark ritual is more powerfull than all three. I don't care if you use dark ritual to bring out a first turn garza's assassin or something, you're still playing with dark ritual and if I lose to a deck packing dark ritual because I'm playing my "competative elfball list" then yes, next round, I'm playing strip mines and wastelands and all the juicy stuff you hate. It's not because I'm a sore loser by any means, it's because deep down inside, you're an ******* too. Because when you win against me with your dark ritual wielding deck because of my mana screw/ not piecing combo together/ bad draws/ or you paying necropotence turn one (because lets face it, necropotence is undenyably more fun than garza's assassin) then you are going to rub it in my face. It doesn't matter that you were playing with legacy cards and I was playing elfball, you won. You beat a competative player. It doesn't matter the reason, you think you're better than me now. You'll say something like "no I'm not gonna play again. I'm gonna leave now. I'm going to take my win while I have it.". You're will tell your friends and then they'll play me thinking they can beat me. And then you know what happens right? Then when I beat them those games, I'm going to laugh at them. You know why? Because I'm still better, even though his friend won a game. And those players were only playing me because they think they can beat me. They knew I wasn't playing casual. They were playing to win.
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Oh, what's that you say, Karn? You remove poison counters? You should tell that to Mr. Rosewater.
Anyways, what I dislike even more is whenever a casual player starts building a black deck, then throw in four copies of dark ritual. Everyone has done this when they started playing. You see this all the time. Now, said casual player gets pissed off when I use strip mine or wasteland or port to shut down his land base when dark ritual is more powerfull than all three. I don't care if you use dark ritual to bring out a first turn garza's assassin or something, you're still playing with dark ritual and if I lose to a deck packing dark ritual because I'm playing my "competative elfball list" then yes, next round, I'm playing strip mines and wastelands and all the juicy stuff you hate. It's not because I'm a sore loser by any means, it's because deep down inside, you're an ******* too. Because when you win against me with your dark ritual wielding deck because of my mana screw/ not piecing combo together/ bad draws/ or you paying necropotence turn one (because lets face it, necropotence is undenyably more fun than garza's assassin) then you are going to rub it in my face. It doesn't matter that you were playing with legacy cards and I was playing elfball, you won. You beat a competative player. It doesn't matter the reason, you think you're better than me now. You'll say something like "no I'm not gonna play again. I'm gonna leave now. I'm going to take my win while I have it.". You're will tell your friends and then they'll play me thinking they can beat me. And then you know what happens right? Then when I beat them those games, I'm going to laugh at them. You know why? Because I'm still better, even though his friend won a game. And those players were only playing me because they think they can beat me. They knew I wasn't playing casual. They were playing to win.
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
.....Then when I beat them those games, I'm going to laugh at them. You know why? Because I'm still better, even though his friend won a game. And those players were only playing me because they think they can beat me. They knew I wasn't playing casual. They were playing to win.
It's okay "Dave", take a sedative. That was quite a rant.
On topic. I always like to take a range of decks with me to casual playgroups. I will bring competitive standard and extended decks to play against other competitive standard and extended decks, but I will always have at least one Primal Forcemage deck or a Stuffy Doll/Guilty Conscience deck for a more "casual" game. It can be quite funny when your Tamanoa/Phytohydra/Savage Twister deck goes off against a tuned extended deck, and your flatmate is like, *facepalm* "I'm never playing this stupid game again" (but he will be playing again the next day, he just needs the rest of the night to recover from the shame of losing to a 5cc 1/1).
Because when you win against me with your dark ritual wielding deck because of my mana screw/ not piecing combo together/ bad draws/ or you paying necropotence turn one (because lets face it, necropotence is undenyably more fun than garza's assassin) then you are going to rub it in my face. It doesn't matter that you were playing with legacy cards and I was playing elfball, you won. You beat a competative player. It doesn't matter the reason, you think you're better than me now.
its cuz you stopped before reading the entire article so you do not understand. But really the article was mostly about bad players who take their "dark ritual decks" to pound in some faces just cuz they can, they aren't looking for a fair fight pretty much, the majority of compeative players fall in the catagory of "dave" due to the fact and nature of compeative people, and competitions and that is to win at all costs if nessiary.
Casual is like having a fooball game with friends. your trying to win ofcouse but your not there to win your there to have a good time with friends. Compeative is like playing in the NFL your playing to win no matter the cost and within the rules, your there to win and not there to make friends.
Thats why casual players don't like compeative people/decks in casual, because thoes people are not there to make friends they are there to make themselves feel good, by pounding in the faces of thoes who didn't bring a Compeative deck to the game.
Personally attacking other users by calling them "crazy" is not allowed on this site. Flame warning issued. --Binary
one of the best articles i've read in a long time, although it made me feel guilty and sad about my behaviour and desire to win all the time.
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Khaldun
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“Game over,” Lursen said. “Demon’s Horn.”
Demon’s Horn has a reputation in multiplayer games, Lursen said.“Usually if somebody in multiplayer plays a Demon’s Horn, we all just immediately attack that person, because he’s going to win,” Lursen said.
one of the best articles i've read in a long time, although it made me feel guilty and sad about my behaviour and desire to win all the time.
Thanks for the compliment!
You shouldn't feel guilty or sad about wanting to win: we allshould want to win. That's the general goal of most games. If you intentionally drill an underpowered deck or become obnoxious (putting down, non-constructive criticism, etc...) then that's a different story.
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
yeah i COMPLETELY agree with you. The jerks need to put up and shut up. Although idk if youve noticed the *******s arent normally the best player in the room they are second or third. The best player tends to be a relatively friendly person who helps. The fact is there are mean people in all walks of life and even in casual magic. Those players dont become "spikes" by being douche bags thats just who they are. And being a spike didnt make them that way its just how they are. I completely agree they have a complex. As i said earlier im a Spike to the core but i LOVE Cube, and EDH. Look at Gavin(lesurgo) he has one of the best cubes ive seen and he definetely qualifies as a Spike. BTW author i apologize for taking my frustrations out on you. This whole spike Vs. casual thing just pisses me off because we should be able to coexist and have fun together. I try my best to help with that. New players receive on average a thousand cards from me the first couple of weeks they start just because i dont care i draft constantly and love to propagate the game. I feel there are more spikes out there doing that than most realize.
Finally an article worth registering to reply for.
After playing a game, from time to time the other player would ask if I am a new player and suggest that if I spend just a dollar or two I can get much better cards. I smile and thank them for the tips.
Of course, I don't tell them I have been exposed to MTG since the Fallen Empires days. For years I wanted the best chase cards possible and upgraded to the latest incarnation of slightly better Fog, Brain Storm, or etc..
Eventually, power playing (be it MTG or RPGs) made me an automaton obsessed with statistics, probabilities, and the most optimal paths. Since realizing that I was just not having fun, I have learned to play casually with fun and role play in mind.
I have learned to be tolerant of the power player if I encounter them and shrug off the loss. After all, perhaps they deserve the win having spent handsomely for the latest dual lands or chase cards. Moreover, it gives me a chance to show that my pauper deck without staples can sometimes pack a punch.
Several occassions I held back from delivering the kill with a Vizzerdrix deck. I thought, perhaps it is too cruel if the opponent is the competitive type. Other times (most) in which I lost with this deck, I had the guilty pleasure of imagining that the other player may have been scrambling to win to not soil his/her reputation/confidence.
Nowadays I am only interested in making fun unconventional decks that is free of chase cards and staples people want. Send your unneeded cards to 'zforest' on MTGO and I will strive to make that wall deck that you just can't get through or the fog deck that farts every turn. =)
Let's close by pronouncing that I am so enammored with the uncommon gold legends from Legends. If MTGO releases them I will finally be able to replicate my Dreams of the Dead deck featuring Sivitri Scarzam and the other flavorful and loreful turds!
yeah i COMPLETELY agree with you. The jerks need to put up and shut up. Although idk if youve noticed the *******s arent normally the best player in the room they are second or third. The best player tends to be a relatively friendly person who helps. The fact is there are mean people in all walks of life and even in casual magic.
I don't believe that anyone should just "put up and shut up," even jerks, and the blanket generalization that the person who thinks they are "the best player in room" isn't the best is unfair. To be effective at any game you must believe that you are the best: it's a mental state of preparedness that athletes of all sports are familiar with.
By using the measure of what a player's responsibility is, then I agree that the "best player tends to be a relatively friendly person who help." Friendly and competitive aren't mutually exclusive concepts (see Patrick Chapin and Gabriel Nassif).
Finally an article worth registering to reply for.
...
I have learned to be tolerant of the power player if I encounter them and shrug off the loss. After all, perhaps they deserve the win having spent handsomely for the latest dual lands or chase cards. Moreover, it gives me a chance to show that my pauper deck without staples can sometimes pack a punch.
Several occassions I held back from delivering the kill with a Vizzerdrix deck. I thought, perhaps it is too cruel if the opponent is the competitive type. Other times (most) in which I lost with this deck, I had the guilty pleasure of imagining that the other player may have been scrambling to win to not soil his/her reputation/confidence.
Nowadays I am only interested in making fun unconventional decks that is free of chase cards and staples people want. Send your unneeded cards to 'zforest' on MTGO and I will strive to make that wall deck that you just can't get through or the fog deck that farts every turn. =)
Let's close by pronouncing that I am so enammored with the uncommon gold legends from Legends. If MTGO releases them I will finally be able to replicate my Dreams of the Dead deck featuring Sivitri Scarzam and the other flavorful and loreful turds!
Thanks; flattery will get you anywhere!
Your appreciation of those more competitive (with their cards) speaks volumes about the atmosphere of casual you bring to a game. I'm not sure if I can buy into the logic that a players would "deserve the win having spent handsomely for the latest dual lands or chase cards," understanding that they want to win and buy the best cards available to do so it certainly agreeable idea.
Keep up the fun decks; I'm sure there is far more fun out there waiting for you (and everyone else)!
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
If you bring a gun to a knife-fight, shame on you. I agree with this.. It's like running a bicycle race on a motorbike. Pretty hollow victory there, Spike.
Another solution to this problem (should it arise) is to occasionally let the newer player try out another of your uber-decks and throw a duel. Everyone has fun that way...and over the course of the game they'll figure out what 'the deal' is w/broken cards.
I just try to save mine for extreme situations where I've been getting either teamed up on or just kicked all over the place all night and I just feel like winning one. If they've earned my wrath somehow, they usually know it by the point I unload it on them.
Another thing i've learned is that most of these decks can be just utterly dismantled in a real multiplayer game. It's one thing to dominate in a duel, it's quite another to take on all comers.
How often do these kinds of mismatches occur anyways ? Usually most regular playgroups eventually work this stuff out and find some middle ground.
I guess you're most likely to see a Scrub vs. Spike casual game at a Magic event when they're just killing time or occasionally at an organized gaming club.
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Decks I'm working on:
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
I like this statement, because it's pretty appropriate. However, it should be noted that you must know it's a knife fight. If you just bring a gun to a weapon fight, you're just being smart.
That's why I applaud your efforts to make it known quantity. However, Spikes will still exist, they'll just adapt.
We did a local tournament for the Dragon Box, no rares, in an attempt to include all players, regardless of their collection.
A spike won it. Because it doesn't matter if you take his rares away, the spike is still the one who play-tested for weeks, predicted the meta-game and made contingencies for it, and walked away with the prize.
Spikes just want to win, and they are the ones who find the edges of those limits you place.
On that note i found the way to break a creature less tourney with biorythem combo... Was that a spike move? yeah i won with it easily, it was also a fun move so maybe spikes have fun too with things other than winning?
This is a matter of opinion. Lightning Bolt is strong, but the many analogues that are frequently printed should show that 1 red mana for 3 damage is hardly overpowered (at least, not nearly as much as say Strip Mine, Counterspell, or Demonic Tutor). Take Rift Bolt for instance. It, like Lightning Bolt, kills most creatures and can force your opponent to play as if he was at 17. It can't be as reactively awesome as Lightning Bolt, halting Auras or countering Giant Growths, but in basic terms it is very similar. I think R&D could probably print a sorcery version of Lightning Bolt and it wouldn't break anything.
I'd agree with your analysis of Counterspell and Demonic Tutor though. Cheap counters gain mass the way burn does, but there are far fewer ways to fight through counters (especially when you're new). If your opponent has plentiful burn, well you know you can play with protection from red creatures and pack some lifegain (especially recurring lifegain). You might still lose when they have a fast hand, but you'll stand a better chance in the long game. On the other hand, its hard to speed decks up to face counters and there are very few creatures printed with "Cannot be countered" on them. Also, fetching your best card for 1 or 2 mana (even if shocks you) is decidedly overpowered.
I like your article but I think you've coated a little too much vitriol on the ending. When I was a new player I wanted to see those moxen in action, curious as to why they were worth so much and what could be done with so much power. I held little idea that I would actually defeat such a deck.
Nothing can really restrict an uber spike from being an uber spike. You think limiting the card pool to just commons will make games longer? Not hardly. Play with some of the folks at paupermagic.com for a while and you'll see they construct fearsome decks capable of winning very quickly or exerting control just as tightly as a typical standard deck.
I think every player, casual or otherwise, likes to experiment at one point or another with making the best deck they possibly can. Maybe its a burn deck with their best red cards, or a stompy deck with their favorite green creatures. Regardless, it is, in their mind and with their budget, their strongest deck. Depending on who you are, you might take it apart or tweak it over the years, opting to create new, more fun decks filled with 1-ofs, or to go on to tournaments and find stronger cards.
One type of player that makes my head hurt, is the type of player that really really wants to win, gets irritated or angry when they dont win, and yet want to play with something different from the norm. "Net Decking" is basically a bad word when it comes to most casual players or this type of player, as they want to make or see unique decks, but at the same time also want to be able to win against the best decks with those unique decks. The net result is these players end up putting lots of effort into making their particular deck better, using often subpar cards, and then eventually get burned out and give up (at least for a while) when this seemingly flawed strategy doesnt work. Basically I call this group the casual players that want to prove badly that they can be as good as the best tournament players without bowing to the temptation to use a "netdeck" to win with.
I personally dislike tournament magic, in that Im not a big fan of all the pressure and such that go into such a situation. Im a casual player through and through, though I havent really played much of any magic for a couple years now, since I started selling at the shop I sell at, and went back to school to finish up my bachelors. To this day my most fun deck, was this green monstrosity from back during tempest/urza block when I was getting back into the game again after a long absense. It was like a 100-120 card deck, and it was built around producing tons of mana and gaining tons of life if left to its own devises. Our magic group, who all were getting back into magic at that time had limited supplies of cards (I had the most at the time), so to make things even, they would play me 2 on 1, or 3 on 1, or even a couple times, 4 on 1 (now THOSE were epic games). I still would win, though usually barely and with lifeswings in the 100's each turn, but eventually they got better and started using disruption and mass removal, and thus our gameplay evolved and balanced out as it inevitably should once the cardpools expand and people evolve their gameplay to react to the other decks being played. Some of them stayed as casual players, others moved on to die-hard tournament players when they had the time.
Once again, thanks for the article, and here is hopeing we can get our EDH league going, seems to be our biggest up and coming format right now.
Rift Bolt is even slower than a sorcery speed Lightning Bolt and it was played very heavily. I don't think the power issue lies with speed but the combination of cost (very cheap) and amount of damage. While it may seem like a small difference between two and three, it really is significant in Magic.
Incinerate and it's ugly cousin Volcanic Hammer receive(d) ton of play when they are (were) the viable options. Even at CMC 2, three damage is still very effective. To put a different spin on it (starting life is 20): 20/2 (Shock) == 10; 20/3 (Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, etc...) ~== 7. That is the numerical issue I see underlying old bolt, and it is what forms the bassi for my opinion.
And, yes, I do have a play set that I use from time to time.
I can't beat around the bush: my end statement is a bit too saucy. I let some frustration seep into it but if anyone were to disregard the conclusion the article moves to based solely on that alone it would be foolish.
I used to be an uber Spike. What stopped me was the social forces that resulted from my behavior: I repeatedly squashed my friends and lost some as a result. I changed things up and matured past "OMG! LOL! TEH EPIC WIN 4 ME!!!1" and into "Heh. Nailed you that time." I stopped trying to beat everything and, even though this causes me to lose pretty regularly, began to enjoy the interaction around the game.
The "Rules of Engagement" is just a rough way to get a heads up if somebody is going to be fun to play against (regardless of whether or not you win) or agonizing to play against. If you've played Standard in the past few months you are well aware of the "issue" that Faeries presented. It wasn't that Faeries couldn't be beaten, it was that so little could actually beat Faeries. Pidgeon-holing the meta like that was not as awful as Ravaffinity was (I was there), but close enough. When there are only three (or so) decks that made up a Rock-Paper-Scissors meta (Faeries, 5C Control, and Kithkin/Elfball) the game gets somewhat stale. Rotation has changed things since but, even so, these decks hold much of their previous power now.
Thanks! I'm glad that I'm not (completely) alone in my experiences with Magic in a community.
Rift Bolt is a Sorcery and can only be played as an instant if you have Vedalken Orrery or something like that in play.
As for the article, nice job!
*Mayreturn*
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G'ah! Sorry about that; I fixed my statement (fortunately it didn't generate a contradiction to my point there). After enough time of staring at cards they all start to bleed together.
Thanks!
They did, and even gave it a drawback. 3 damage at one mana, to any target is too powerful : chain lightning
Casual players are turning Spikes into the boogey man of mtg. The truth is the reason spikes have a rep for being asshats is because bullies=overly competitive people. BUT competitive people=/= bullies.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
I didn't make a blanket statement "All Spike tournament players are jerks." or mean to convey that: those who are jerks and intentionally bring mean-spirited decks to bear are the "uber-Spike" type mentioned in the comments above. I know a lot of tournament players who are cool(er than me) and some who are very unkind. It's the unkind that people tend to remember.
In those situations, I lose about 65 % of the time, but that other 35 % I get to say:
"THAT'S RIGHT, HOMARID WARRIOR FTW ! HOW YOU LIKE ME NOW MOTHERF*****?" and then I flip the table over.
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
Anyways, what I dislike even more is whenever a casual player starts building a black deck, then throw in four copies of dark ritual. Everyone has done this when they started playing. You see this all the time. Now, said casual player gets pissed off when I use strip mine or wasteland or port to shut down his land base when dark ritual is more powerfull than all three. I don't care if you use dark ritual to bring out a first turn garza's assassin or something, you're still playing with dark ritual and if I lose to a deck packing dark ritual because I'm playing my "competative elfball list" then yes, next round, I'm playing strip mines and wastelands and all the juicy stuff you hate. It's not because I'm a sore loser by any means, it's because deep down inside, you're an ******* too. Because when you win against me with your dark ritual wielding deck because of my mana screw/ not piecing combo together/ bad draws/ or you paying necropotence turn one (because lets face it, necropotence is undenyably more fun than garza's assassin) then you are going to rub it in my face. It doesn't matter that you were playing with legacy cards and I was playing elfball, you won. You beat a competative player. It doesn't matter the reason, you think you're better than me now. You'll say something like "no I'm not gonna play again. I'm gonna leave now. I'm going to take my win while I have it.". You're will tell your friends and then they'll play me thinking they can beat me. And then you know what happens right? Then when I beat them those games, I'm going to laugh at them. You know why? Because I'm still better, even though his friend won a game. And those players were only playing me because they think they can beat me. They knew I wasn't playing casual. They were playing to win.
This was a very long sentence.
This was a non-contributory post.
And that looks like more than one sentence to me.
Spam warning. --Binary
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
It's okay "Dave", take a sedative. That was quite a rant.
On topic. I always like to take a range of decks with me to casual playgroups. I will bring competitive standard and extended decks to play against other competitive standard and extended decks, but I will always have at least one Primal Forcemage deck or a Stuffy Doll/Guilty Conscience deck for a more "casual" game. It can be quite funny when your Tamanoa/Phytohydra/Savage Twister deck goes off against a tuned extended deck, and your flatmate is like, *facepalm* "I'm never playing this stupid game again" (but he will be playing again the next day, he just needs the rest of the night to recover from the shame of losing to a 5cc 1/1).
its cuz you stopped before reading the entire article so you do not understand. But really the article was mostly about bad players who take their "dark ritual decks" to pound in some faces just cuz they can, they aren't looking for a fair fight pretty much, the majority of compeative players fall in the catagory of "dave" due to the fact and nature of compeative people, and competitions and that is to win at all costs if nessiary.
Casual is like having a fooball game with friends. your trying to win ofcouse but your not there to win your there to have a good time with friends. Compeative is like playing in the NFL your playing to win no matter the cost and within the rules, your there to win and not there to make friends.
Thats why casual players don't like compeative people/decks in casual, because thoes people are not there to make friends they are there to make themselves feel good, by pounding in the faces of thoes who didn't bring a Compeative deck to the game.
Personally attacking other users by calling them "crazy" is not allowed on this site. Flame warning issued. --Binary
_____________
“Game over,” Lursen said. “Demon’s Horn.”
Demon’s Horn has a reputation in multiplayer games, Lursen said.“Usually if somebody in multiplayer plays a Demon’s Horn, we all just immediately attack that person, because he’s going to win,” Lursen said.
Thanks for the compliment!
You shouldn't feel guilty or sad about wanting to win: we all should want to win. That's the general goal of most games. If you intentionally drill an underpowered deck or become obnoxious (putting down, non-constructive criticism, etc...) then that's a different story.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
After playing a game, from time to time the other player would ask if I am a new player and suggest that if I spend just a dollar or two I can get much better cards. I smile and thank them for the tips.
Of course, I don't tell them I have been exposed to MTG since the Fallen Empires days. For years I wanted the best chase cards possible and upgraded to the latest incarnation of slightly better Fog, Brain Storm, or etc..
Eventually, power playing (be it MTG or RPGs) made me an automaton obsessed with statistics, probabilities, and the most optimal paths. Since realizing that I was just not having fun, I have learned to play casually with fun and role play in mind.
I have learned to be tolerant of the power player if I encounter them and shrug off the loss. After all, perhaps they deserve the win having spent handsomely for the latest dual lands or chase cards. Moreover, it gives me a chance to show that my pauper deck without staples can sometimes pack a punch.
Several occassions I held back from delivering the kill with a Vizzerdrix deck. I thought, perhaps it is too cruel if the opponent is the competitive type. Other times (most) in which I lost with this deck, I had the guilty pleasure of imagining that the other player may have been scrambling to win to not soil his/her reputation/confidence.
Nowadays I am only interested in making fun unconventional decks that is free of chase cards and staples people want. Send your unneeded cards to 'zforest' on MTGO and I will strive to make that wall deck that you just can't get through or the fog deck that farts every turn. =)
Let's close by pronouncing that I am so enammored with the uncommon gold legends from Legends. If MTGO releases them I will finally be able to replicate my Dreams of the Dead deck featuring Sivitri Scarzam and the other flavorful and loreful turds!
I don't believe that anyone should just "put up and shut up," even jerks, and the blanket generalization that the person who thinks they are "the best player in room" isn't the best is unfair. To be effective at any game you must believe that you are the best: it's a mental state of preparedness that athletes of all sports are familiar with.
By using the measure of what a player's responsibility is, then I agree that the "best player tends to be a relatively friendly person who help." Friendly and competitive aren't mutually exclusive concepts (see Patrick Chapin and Gabriel Nassif).
Thanks; flattery will get you anywhere!
Your appreciation of those more competitive (with their cards) speaks volumes about the atmosphere of casual you bring to a game. I'm not sure if I can buy into the logic that a players would "deserve the win having spent handsomely for the latest dual lands or chase cards," understanding that they want to win and buy the best cards available to do so it certainly agreeable idea.
Keep up the fun decks; I'm sure there is far more fun out there waiting for you (and everyone else)!
Another solution to this problem (should it arise) is to occasionally let the newer player try out another of your uber-decks and throw a duel. Everyone has fun that way...and over the course of the game they'll figure out what 'the deal' is w/broken cards.
I just try to save mine for extreme situations where I've been getting either teamed up on or just kicked all over the place all night and I just feel like winning one. If they've earned my wrath somehow, they usually know it by the point I unload it on them.
Another thing i've learned is that most of these decks can be just utterly dismantled in a real multiplayer game. It's one thing to dominate in a duel, it's quite another to take on all comers.
Nice article.
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I guess you're most likely to see a Scrub vs. Spike casual game at a Magic event when they're just killing time or occasionally at an organized gaming club.
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
I like this statement, because it's pretty appropriate. However, it should be noted that you must know it's a knife fight. If you just bring a gun to a weapon fight, you're just being smart.
That's why I applaud your efforts to make it known quantity. However, Spikes will still exist, they'll just adapt.
We did a local tournament for the Dragon Box, no rares, in an attempt to include all players, regardless of their collection.
A spike won it. Because it doesn't matter if you take his rares away, the spike is still the one who play-tested for weeks, predicted the meta-game and made contingencies for it, and walked away with the prize.
Spikes just want to win, and they are the ones who find the edges of those limits you place.
You should read them.
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen"
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.