Might as well start with the spoiler starting to be filled in. Clearly some cards will be off but whatever speculation is fun.
Fiery Fall
:5mana::symr: InstantFiery Fall deals 5 damage to target creature.
Basic landcycling :1mana::symr: (:1mana::symr:, Discard this card: Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.)
Basic landcycling doesn't seem very red to me. Don't think this card makes the cut but I can see some non green cards with the keyword being pretty good.
Wall of Reverence
:3mana::symw: Creature - WallDefender, flying
At the end of your turn, gain life equal to the power of a creature you control.
1/6
I'm leaning "no" but this could replace Magus of the Tabernacle or Commander Easia as a creature that totally shuts down aggro.
Noble Hierarch
Creature - Rhino Monk?Exalted
:symtap:: Add :symw:, :symu:, or to your mana pool.
0/1I'm in. Not sure if this replaces Borial Druid or something else. One mana acceleration in green is awesome.
Exotic Orchard
Land:symtap:: Add to your mana pool one mana of any color that a land an opponent controls could produce.
Seems good in EDH and block, bad everywhere else. I like Reflecting Pool in the cube but this is no Reflecting Pool.
Hierarch is about the only one Ill definitely add, but the wall is okay I guess as it con block dragons!! Also even with just a 3/3 out, thats still pretty nice FREE lifegain.
btw I think its way too early for this thread and we need to wait a week or two for some more to be spoiled/confirmed.
If it was a BoP just swapping flying for exalted that would be great. I wouldnt be surprised if it were rare but then there isnt that much difference between that and DotA at common... 3 mana turn 3 is always pretty saucy, mana fixing would be great at uncommon tho!
- Think it will be common/uncommon, seems like a weak rare.
- Might as well start the thread now, sure we don't have much to talk about but that will change.
Obelisk of Alara
Artifact
:1mana::symw:, :symtap:: You gain 5 life.
:1mana::symu:, :symtap:: Draw a card, then discard a card.
:1mana::symb:, :symtap:: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
:1mana::symr:, :symtap:: Obelisk of Alara deals 3 damage to target player.
:1mana::symg:, :symtap:: Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn.
Seems like the sickest in pretty much any limited format to me...
I'm adding the Dragon. It's sick against aggro in mid game. Turn 5-6, turn every card in my hand into a Cruel Edit, and I get a 6/6 flier to boot? That's craziness.
I'll probably add the neo-BoP too, though I'm thinking it's going to be a chase rare for sure.
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Obelisk of Alara
Artifact
:1mana::symw:, :symtap:: You gain 5 life.
:1mana::symu:, :symtap:: Draw a card, then discard a card.
:1mana::symb:, :symtap:: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
:1mana::symr:, :symtap:: Obelisk of Alara deals 3 damage to target player.
:1mana::symg:, :symtap:: Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn.
Seems like the sickest in pretty much any limited format to me...
Why do you think so? It seems too expensive to me. In the long run the effects will win the game, but at this stage there won't be a long run.
I'm adding the Dragon. It's sick against aggro in mid game. Turn 5-6, turn every card in my hand into a Cruel Edit, and I get a 6/6 flier to boot? That's craziness.
It has flying too?! I'm too worried by it's difficult cost to say for sure I'll add it though.
The artifact has some sick reusable abilities. Like, the initial six casting cost may seem scary at first, but after that it's a veritable swiss army knife if you're playing at least a few of these colors. Like, I could obviously be completely wrong about this and it could end up a clunkfest, but I'm pretty excited about it for cube at the moment.
An interesting thing is that if an aggro deck faces the white part of it twice, most likely, it's going to be very much an uphill battle. At least, that's what it looks like. The blue ability is pretty expensive though.
Scepter of Dominance :1mana::symw::symw:
Artifact
:symw:, : Tap target permanent
Nice cheaper ICY for White. The black one that does discard every turn could be decent as well.
Path of Exile (W)
Instant
Remove target creature from the Game. That Creatures controller may search for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped. Shuffle that library afterwards.
Obviously this card gets included I'm pretty sure.
I'm adding the Dragon. It's sick against aggro in mid game. Turn 5-6, turn every card in my hand into a Cruel Edit, and I get a 6/6 flier to boot? That's craziness.
Scepter of Dominance :1mana::symw::symw:
Artifact
:symw:, : Tap target permanent
Nice cheaper ICY for White. The black one that does discard every turn could be decent as well.
Path of Exile (W)
Instant
Remove target creature from the Game. That Creatures controller may search for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped. Shuffle that library afterwards.
Obviously this card gets included I'm pretty sure.
The white Icy doesn't excite me, you save one mana and make a flexible card into one that only heavy white decks can play?
Yeah Path seems sick, clearly makes the cut where Condemn did not (for me).
Path of Exile is card disadvantage as well as a tempo boost for your opponent. I think that the drawback is too steep for it to see play. This card isn't really playable on the first 3-4 turns, and later than that and the W casting cost is less relevant because you have adequate lands in play to cast any other removal spell anyway.
(In other words, 1 casting cost can make a huge difference, Shard is a bomb in every cube, portal isn't as much even though it's just a 1 casting cost difference. Icy is already extremely good, a 3 CC version looks to be a lot better. Although, it can't tap pro-white things, but I think that's a very small difference.)
(In other words, 1 casting cost can make a huge difference, Shard is a bomb in every cube, portal isn't as much even though it's just a 1 casting cost difference. Icy is already extremely good, a 3 CC version looks to be a lot better. Although, it can't tap pro-white things, but I think that's a very small difference.)
I just disagree. I'd say I'd rather p1p1 Portal over Shard (clearly this must be a weak pack). Being open to colors is better than locked in. Also Shard is fine on the splash (which in fact may make it the better p1p1) where this is not.
I dont mind locking into blue (at least for splash) P1P1. Anyway, shard doesn't do that, people forget the you can pay 3 colourless instead of U. Not exactly end of the world!
How is Malfegor bad in limited? I discard my hand (2-3 cards usually at the point that I cast him), get a 6/6 flier and kill 2-3 of your guys (which should basically be most, if not all of them, unless you're running some token strategy). All of it for an aggressively costed 6 mana? Seems quite good to me in limited play.
And Path to Exile might suck more in cubes, but it's probably going to replace Swords to Plowshares in Vintage and maybe Legacy. Considering most robots in Vintage/Legacy are of the size 12/12, 11/11, 7/10, and they get cheated into play anyway (and man Vintage decks often only run Colossus as a 1-of), so that land isn't really that much beneficial to your opponent, compared to like 12 or 11 life, which is at least 2-3 more goyf swings.
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DerBK, in your scenario, I play a dragon, ditch my hand, kill 3 of your guys (let's assume that's all of them), and you remove my Dragon with a removal spell, and I'm in topdeck mode...
Uh, what's wrong with that? Considering you have 3 dudes on board AND a removal in hand vs my empty board pre-dragon? I don't think there are many Magic cards in existence that can overcome that situation by itself (even stuff like Wrath still leaves me with nothing if I don't have another threat in hand, and 1 additional threat in hand still only leaves me in topdeck mode, since you've got the removal for it). You've got to look at it when both players are either on par with each other, or with me slightly disadvantageous, but not like ridiculously off, you can't just say the card sucks because it sucks in a very stacked situation. So what happens when I've got dudes on board, and you've got dudes on board. I play a dragon and kill all but your best dude, and I STILL have all of my dudes plus a 6/6 flying dragon?
I wouldn't be so fast in comparing Malfegor to terrible cards like Rakdos.
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DerBK, in your scenario, I play a dragon, ditch my hand, kill 3 of your guys (let's assume that's all of them), and you remove my Dragon with a removal spell, and I'm in topdeck mode...
Uh, what's wrong with that? Considering you have 3 dudes on board AND a removal in hand vs my empty board pre-dragon? I don't think there are many Magic cards in existence that can overcome that situation by itself (even stuff like Wrath still leaves me with nothing if I don't have another threat in hand, and 1 additional threat in hand still only leaves me in topdeck mode, since you've got the removal for it). You've got to look at it when both players are either on par with each other, or with me slightly disadvantageous, but not like ridiculously off, you can't just say the card sucks because it sucks in a very stacked situation. So what happens when I've got dudes on board, and you've got dudes on board. I play a dragon and kill all but your best dude, and I STILL have all of my dudes plus a 6/6 flying dragon?
I wouldn't be so fast in comparing Malfegor to terrible cards like Rakdos.
Actually, in this specific example Damnation would not leave you in topdeck mode. To cast Malfegor to kill 3 creatures you need 4 cards in hand (Malfegor+3). To cast Damnation, you need 2 cards in hand (Damnation + threat), which leaves you with 2 cards in hand that you wouldn't have with Malfegor. This is not topdeck mode.
My problem with Malfegor is that he's trying to be a finisher in a control deck when B/R control isn't really a viable archetype. Even then, he has to compete with the likes of Bogardan Hellkite and Visara for the B/R finisher du jour. He's even worse as the top end of an aggro curve. In an aggro deck, he's almost always going to be the last card out of your hand, in which case he kills nothing and you've just spent 6 on a 6/6 flier. Not bad, but not as good as Rorix, Kokusho, or Tombstalker in that case. You could hold lands and cast him with a bunch of those in your hand, but then you're either severely mana flooded or not casting him on turn 6.
In addition to competing with B/R 6+ drops, he has to compete within the alloted slots for B/R gold cards, and I don't have any cards I want to cut for yet another dragon. He might end up being the stone-cold nuts, but he is one of those cards I want a proven pedigree with before I include him in my cube.
For the specific example, Damnation + one threat is pretty much equivalent to topdeck mode, considering my opponent has the removal in hand (for this specific exmple), so his removal that he had for Malfegor would just be used on the threat in hand anyway. Anything that's not a threat in hand or doesn't impact the board immediately might as well not be there, since, well, they don't seriously impact the game play (example would be stuff like conditional counters, cards that needs sacrifices of some sorts, combo pieces, mana accelerants, lands, etc). Unless you are setting up for something, turning conditional cards into immediate effects (removal effects at that) is generally a good thing.
I also wouln't just assume that Malfegor is always going to be the last card out of your hand in aggro. Assuming on the play, you play a land every turn, and play something every turn, you would have 0 card left in hand to pitch to Malfegor. But since that's assuming you've made a 1 drop, a 2 drop, a 3 drop, a 4 drop, a 5 drop, and never even missed 1 land drop, and never drew an extra card out of your draw phase (or used a bounceland, etc). That's very unlikely, so Malfegor should always be able to have at least 1 or 2 cards to pitch, even if you are the aggro deck.
Obviously Malfegor isn't the card to end all cubes, but he is a very good card for his cost and should definitely warrant a spot, particularly considering how bad some of the R/B multicolour/hybrid cards are.
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Obviously Malfegor isn't the card to end all cubes, but he is a very good card for his cost and should definitely warrant a spot, particularly considering how bad some of the R/B multicolour/hybrid cards are.
I think RB gold has a higher than average power level.
Damnation + one threat + 2 cards =/= topdeck mode. Those two cards could be anything, including more threats or card draw. Assuming those two cards are blanks is just as bad as assuming the three cards you pitch to Malfegor are blanks: they won't always be blanks.
Let me try a different track. Every time you cast Malfegor, you're all-in on him. You trade all of your cards in hand for a potentially empty board, a 6/6 dragon, and the hope your opponent can't deal with it before it kills him. There are times that this will be a good plan, such as against an aggro deck that is already in topdeck mode. There are also times this will be a bad plan, such as against a control deck with no creatures on the board. Unless your opponent has creatures in play greater than or equal to the number of cards in your hand, Malfegor undoes all the card advantage you've worked for the entire game. Is it really a good idea to discard four cards to kill a random 4/4?
Malfegor is a very conditional creature. In theory, the times that it will be a total blowout in your favor will be matched by the number of times Malfegor sits in your hand because you don't want to discard four or five cards to kill two creatures. This is why I want him to be proven as a good card before I even think about including him.
Fiery Fall
:5mana::symr: InstantFiery Fall deals 5 damage to target creature.
Basic landcycling :1mana::symr: (:1mana::symr:, Discard this card: Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.)
Basic landcycling doesn't seem very red to me. Don't think this card makes the cut but I can see some non green cards with the keyword being pretty good.
Wall of Reverence
:3mana::symw: Creature - WallDefender, flying
At the end of your turn, gain life equal to the power of a creature you control.
1/6
I'm leaning "no" but this could replace Magus of the Tabernacle or Commander Easia as a creature that totally shuts down aggro.
Noble Hierarch
Creature - Rhino Monk?Exalted
:symtap:: Add :symw:, :symu:, or to your mana pool.
0/1I'm in. Not sure if this replaces Borial Druid or something else. One mana acceleration in green is awesome.
Exotic Orchard
Land:symtap:: Add to your mana pool one mana of any color that a land an opponent controls could produce.
Seems good in EDH and block, bad everywhere else. I like Reflecting Pool in the cube but this is no Reflecting Pool.
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
btw I think its way too early for this thread and we need to wait a week or two for some more to be spoiled/confirmed.
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Facebook.
Alters Blog.
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Wait till you try four mana turn three!
- Think it will be common/uncommon, seems like a weak rare.
- Might as well start the thread now, sure we don't have much to talk about but that will change.
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
Obelisk of Alara
Artifact
:1mana::symw:, :symtap:: You gain 5 life.
:1mana::symu:, :symtap:: Draw a card, then discard a card.
:1mana::symb:, :symtap:: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
:1mana::symr:, :symtap:: Obelisk of Alara deals 3 damage to target player.
:1mana::symg:, :symtap:: Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn.
Seems like the sickest in pretty much any limited format to me...
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(list is always current)
I'll probably add the neo-BoP too, though I'm thinking it's going to be a chase rare for sure.
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and thanks to PurpleD @ [<--- Left Play Design <---] for making this awesome banner!
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Why do you think so? It seems too expensive to me. In the long run the effects will win the game, but at this stage there won't be a long run.
It has flying too?! I'm too worried by it's difficult cost to say for sure I'll add it though.
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(list is always current)
My artifacts are too tight to cut for Obelisk.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Artifact
:symw:, : Tap target permanent
Nice cheaper ICY for White. The black one that does discard every turn could be decent as well.
Path of Exile (W)
Instant
Remove target creature from the Game. That Creatures controller may search for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped. Shuffle that library afterwards.
Obviously this card gets included I'm pretty sure.
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(list is always current)
What Dragon, what did I miss?
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2BBRR
6/6 Flying
When Malfegor comes into play, discard your hand and target opponent sacrifices creatures equal to the cards you discarded.
[edit - the new Icy and STP are going in mine.]
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
The white Icy doesn't excite me, you save one mana and make a flexible card into one that only heavy white decks can play?
Yeah Path seems sick, clearly makes the cut where Condemn did not (for me).
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
Teneb, the Harvester: Let there be life!
Drafting Aggro in the Cube: A Primer for Beginners
Erratic Portal -> Crystal Shard.
(In other words, 1 casting cost can make a huge difference, Shard is a bomb in every cube, portal isn't as much even though it's just a 1 casting cost difference. Icy is already extremely good, a 3 CC version looks to be a lot better. Although, it can't tap pro-white things, but I think that's a very small difference.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
I just disagree. I'd say I'd rather p1p1 Portal over Shard (clearly this must be a weak pack). Being open to colors is better than locked in. Also Shard is fine on the splash (which in fact may make it the better p1p1) where this is not.
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
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And Path to Exile might suck more in cubes, but it's probably going to replace Swords to Plowshares in Vintage and maybe Legacy. Considering most robots in Vintage/Legacy are of the size 12/12, 11/11, 7/10, and they get cheated into play anyway (and man Vintage decks often only run Colossus as a 1-of), so that land isn't really that much beneficial to your opponent, compared to like 12 or 11 life, which is at least 2-3 more goyf swings.
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Uh, what's wrong with that? Considering you have 3 dudes on board AND a removal in hand vs my empty board pre-dragon? I don't think there are many Magic cards in existence that can overcome that situation by itself (even stuff like Wrath still leaves me with nothing if I don't have another threat in hand, and 1 additional threat in hand still only leaves me in topdeck mode, since you've got the removal for it). You've got to look at it when both players are either on par with each other, or with me slightly disadvantageous, but not like ridiculously off, you can't just say the card sucks because it sucks in a very stacked situation. So what happens when I've got dudes on board, and you've got dudes on board. I play a dragon and kill all but your best dude, and I STILL have all of my dudes plus a 6/6 flying dragon?
I wouldn't be so fast in comparing Malfegor to terrible cards like Rakdos.
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Actually, in this specific example Damnation would not leave you in topdeck mode. To cast Malfegor to kill 3 creatures you need 4 cards in hand (Malfegor+3). To cast Damnation, you need 2 cards in hand (Damnation + threat), which leaves you with 2 cards in hand that you wouldn't have with Malfegor. This is not topdeck mode.
My problem with Malfegor is that he's trying to be a finisher in a control deck when B/R control isn't really a viable archetype. Even then, he has to compete with the likes of Bogardan Hellkite and Visara for the B/R finisher du jour. He's even worse as the top end of an aggro curve. In an aggro deck, he's almost always going to be the last card out of your hand, in which case he kills nothing and you've just spent 6 on a 6/6 flier. Not bad, but not as good as Rorix, Kokusho, or Tombstalker in that case. You could hold lands and cast him with a bunch of those in your hand, but then you're either severely mana flooded or not casting him on turn 6.
In addition to competing with B/R 6+ drops, he has to compete within the alloted slots for B/R gold cards, and I don't have any cards I want to cut for yet another dragon. He might end up being the stone-cold nuts, but he is one of those cards I want a proven pedigree with before I include him in my cube.
Teneb, the Harvester: Let there be life!
Drafting Aggro in the Cube: A Primer for Beginners
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
I also wouln't just assume that Malfegor is always going to be the last card out of your hand in aggro. Assuming on the play, you play a land every turn, and play something every turn, you would have 0 card left in hand to pitch to Malfegor. But since that's assuming you've made a 1 drop, a 2 drop, a 3 drop, a 4 drop, a 5 drop, and never even missed 1 land drop, and never drew an extra card out of your draw phase (or used a bounceland, etc). That's very unlikely, so Malfegor should always be able to have at least 1 or 2 cards to pitch, even if you are the aggro deck.
Obviously Malfegor isn't the card to end all cubes, but he is a very good card for his cost and should definitely warrant a spot, particularly considering how bad some of the R/B multicolour/hybrid cards are.
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I think RB gold has a higher than average power level.
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
Let me try a different track. Every time you cast Malfegor, you're all-in on him. You trade all of your cards in hand for a potentially empty board, a 6/6 dragon, and the hope your opponent can't deal with it before it kills him. There are times that this will be a good plan, such as against an aggro deck that is already in topdeck mode. There are also times this will be a bad plan, such as against a control deck with no creatures on the board. Unless your opponent has creatures in play greater than or equal to the number of cards in your hand, Malfegor undoes all the card advantage you've worked for the entire game. Is it really a good idea to discard four cards to kill a random 4/4?
Malfegor is a very conditional creature. In theory, the times that it will be a total blowout in your favor will be matched by the number of times Malfegor sits in your hand because you don't want to discard four or five cards to kill two creatures. This is why I want him to be proven as a good card before I even think about including him.
Teneb, the Harvester: Let there be life!
Drafting Aggro in the Cube: A Primer for Beginners