I took my first foray into EDH in October 2007 when I read some articles about the format online and it sparked my interest immediately. I was never much of a competitive M:tG player in the tournament scene due to the demanding time constraints of my college architectural program keeping me from playing in tournaments with any semblance of consistency. Additionally, I resented the idea that you had to be playing 1 of perhaps 8 viable decks at any given point in any of the sanctioned constructed formats to be taken seriously. Even the best decks quickly became boring to me and I lost interest in playing competitively as a result. My venture into EDH was therefore a seemingly predictable natural discourse since the casual singleton nature provided me with what seemed to be enough variation to hold my interest.
Despite not having much of an interest in the typical constructed formats, I did, however, build a number of relatively competitive decks, of which I had a favorite…Legacy ATS (Angry Tradewind Survival), a predominantly Blue/Green deck centered around a Survival of the Fittest toolbox strategy. Naturally, when it came to choosing a general, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary immediately stood out to me and seemed to resemble my preferred playstyle. It didn't take long for me to brainstorm a number of ways to develop the deck. By December ‘07 I had built a fully functional Momir Vig EDH deck (though perhaps not in its optimal state) and was toting it around Los Angeles in my free time, usually playing against the typical Standard decks du jour…and winning quite handily to many peoples’ surprise. At that time most people had no idea what EDH was, or clearly what it would become, but I began to notice people gradually taking interest.
As EDH has grown in popularity, so has my unwavering belief in the format and I have experimented with expanding my EDH arsenal to varying degrees of success. However, to this day I have yet to encounter another deck/general that I enjoy as much as Momir Vig, no questions asked. Often times I will dabble with playing other decks, and typically at least once during a match I will think to myself “If only I were playing Momir Vig instead, I probably could have done something about that”. So for the last three years I have been developing this deck through trial and error and extensive playtesting against a broad spectrum of generals, and one thing is for certain, Momir Vig is legit! He may not be the absolute "best" general available (though I personally believe him to be reasonably close to the top tier), but speaking from personal experience, he turns even the worst losses into games full of minor victories. Then again, I didn't build the deck because I thought it would be the best; rather, I took something that looked enjoyable and made it my pursuit to push it to the limit. I couldn't be happier with the result.
In and amongst the following you will find a record of the knowledge and experience I have gained while playing this deck for the past three years. I hope you will find it interesting, and perhaps a bit motivational as you continue to develop in this great format. As always, thank you for your insights and support. God bless.
So you like toolboxing, huh? You like having an answer to practically everything? Well friends, you have come to the right place. Momir Vig, Simic Visionary holds the distinction of being, in my opinion, the ultimate toolbox utility general followed closely by Zur the Enchanter and Captain Sisay, those only trailing because under normal circumstances their tutoring capacity is limited to one activation per turn. Momir Vig, on the other hand, can chain multiple tutor effects together to create huge swings in tempo, card, and board advantage to the point of imminent victory. He may be limited to finding creatures, but with a diverse creature selection you can handle just about everything that is thrown your way.
If you enjoy combo decks, this deck might be for you. There are a number of fantastic combos that this deck regularly assembles (see Obvious/Subtle Synergies below), many of which make it very difficult for an opponent to keep pace. However, use caution if you are taking this deck into a new playgroup/meta because it will most likely elicit some resentment, and that's not fun for anyone. I should mention that I usually keep other less competitive decks handy whenever I play so that I don't step on any toes.
If you enjoy the strategic aspect of the game, this deck is definitely for you. Knowing what to play and when is crucial to this deck's success and I particularly enjoy the thought process and mindfulness that this deck requires to be piloted optimally. I like to view each and every match as a mental exercise. Even after playing this deck for 3 years, I am still discovering little tricks here and there. You will learn a great deal about this deck by goldfishing it routinely and trying to hone in on the subtleties and intricacies that emerge. The beauty, as they say, is in the details.
If you like to win by concession/submission, again, this might be for you. Probably 8/10 matches that this deck wins are by concession. Your opponent will inevitably see no conceivable way to win and begrudgingly scoop. Admittedly, I don't like to win this way persay, but for me the fun isn't in winning anyway, it is in the incremental advantages gained leading up to the win. It might sound cliche, in fact...it most definitely will, but playing this deck encourages you to embrace the journey, not the destination.
If you just like to beat face...this deck is not for you.
Still not convinced? Read on.
Card Explanations:
Cloud of Faeries: Primarily, this serves as a piece of the main combo that the deck assembles. Cloud of Faeries + lands that produce more than 1 mana + repeatable bounce effect = infinite mana. Can also be used in combination with Aluren + repeatable bounce effect to achieve the same effect. Many people also run Palinchron to supplement the Faeries, but I think it is a bit redundant and unnecessary, especially since his mana cost is very steep for this deck.
Gilded Drake: Excellent with all of the bounce effects in the deck since you will still retain control of the stolen creature when Drake leaves the battlefield. Gilded Drake, in particular, is very good at stealing early generals since, more often than not, they aren't expecting a Control Magic effect so early. He can be the deciding factor in matchups, like Rofellos, Zur, or Arcum, where typically they will hit their curve much faster than you.
Man-o'-War: Really good bounce effect to work proactively to further your combo potential or reactively to get rid of an opposing threat. I don't think you're ready for this jelly.
Aether Adept: Essentially Man-o'-War #2 with the added benefit of being a Wizard for a slightly more prohibitive mana cost.
Vendilion Clique: They are the Bomb hunters. They serve to make sure that your opponent isn't holding a hugely swingy spell to jack up your plans. Also can be used for a cantrip for you in a pinch. Additionally, it is typically a strong play to bounce an opposing general and Clique it to the bottom of that player's library to really mess them up. If anyone has ever played against a Clique deck, you probably know where I am coming from.
Clone (Formerly): Clone serves two main purposes: potentially doubling up with a CIP/ETB effect of a creature that is already on the field, or is a fantastic general killer and since his ability doesn't target not even Uril or a shrouded Zur are safe.
[CARD]
Phyrexian Metamorph[/CARD]: Clone but with the added utility of being able to copy artifacts in a cheaper package. What's not to like?
Tradewind Rider: Awesome bounce effect since there are so many creatures in this deck. He gets disgusting when Seedborn Muse is also involved. Many people underestimate this guy, notice he bounces permanents, not just creatures.
Venser, Shaper Savant: Essentially Man-o'-War #3 but with a little bonus of being able to bounce a permanent or "counter" spells in a pinch...nice Banefire...
Body Double: He lets you take advantage of cards that have been killed along the way or works well with cards that were intentionally put in the grave via Intuition, etc.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: Anybody who's been on the other end of this guy knows he's very hard to play against. Teferi + Seedborn Muse makes it really difficult to your opponent(s) to do anything worthwhile.
Draining Whelk (Formerly): Potentially huge flier that counters a spell to boot. Probably the worst creature of the pack but is still a formidable threat.
Tidespout Tyrant: Actually the deck's primary win condition. Combo off, bounce all of your opponents' stuff, play your entire deck (if they don't scoop beforehand), and proceed to the next game.
Birds of Paradise: Valuable mana acceleration and fixing. Oldie but goodie.
Lotus Cobra: Essentially Birds #2 but with the potential for an added benefit in the acceleration department with a fetch land or mana ramp card.
Riftsweeper (Formerly): Another card that has two major functions: retrieve something that was RFG'd/Exiled to be shuffled in for later use, or screw with suspend strategies (Jhoira and Co.). He is actually very much a meta consideration, he can be removed in favor of something a bit more consistent if you don't see a lot of suspend.
Wall of Blossoms: With Momir Vig in play this might as well be Demonic Tutor. Awesome source of card advantage once you get your engine running.
Farhaven Elf (Formerly): More mana ramp that has an optional search tacked on...which is actually very important. More on that later.
Loaming Shaman: Another card that doubles on offense and defense. Can shuffle in your graveyard to get something back for reuse, or screw with reanimation/survival strategies (Iname and co.)
Tilling Treefolk: In this deck Tilling Treefolk is a better Life from the Loam. He brings back fetchlands for reuse, cyclers for additional draw power, and Strip Mine and/or Wasteland for a soft lock. The fact that he is a creature makes him easily tutorable and potentially instant speed when Aluren or Teferi are part of the equation.
Uktabi Orangutan: Artifact destruction that is on the lower end of the curve and conveniently sneaks in under an Aluren. This in conjunction with another (3cmc or less) creature + Aluren + repeatable bounce allows you to machine-gun artifacts as you please.
Eternal Witness: Recursion engine with plenty of bounce to keep it fueled.
Acidic Slime: Will always have a relevant target to destroy and makes an opponent think twice in combat, especially if you have Teferi on your side.
Seedborn Muse: This card is made of win. This allows you to simultaneously build up your army and have mana open for permission spells on an opponent's turn. As mentioned before, this gets insane with either Tradewind Rider or Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
Terastodon: So far this guy has been amazing in testing. The ability to take out multiple targets is superb. The elephants it leaves behind are negligible since you will most likely always have the board advantage when this guy comes out. It hasn't come up yet, but the ability to take out some of your own unimportant permanents for attack power is not to be underestimated.
Coiling Oracle: This dude has card advantage written all over him. Not only is he a Demonic Tutor, he also either draws you a card or ramps your mana to boot. If you are able to combo out, this guy will let you literally play out your entire deck...lands and all. Oddly enough, he is probably the best creature in the deck.
Wistful Selkie: See above, she falls under the same category as Coiling Oracle, but without the potential for ramp. The fact that she is a wizard is also very important for reasons i will get to further down the list. The ability to spent only Green mana for the cost is also extremely beneficial at times since your most fruitful mana source will often be Gaea's Cradle (which will typically produce upwards of 6 mana).
Trygon Predator: He is an incredibly cost-effective attacker with a killer ability built in. Truth be told, he is essentially just a solid blue/green creature that will trigger both of Vig's abilities but brings something else to the table in combat.
Winged Coatl: This is one mean snake on a plane. Has flash, triggers both of Vig's abilities, and takes out something (shrouded or not) in combat. He has a knack for catching opponents with their pants down.
Mystic Snake: This is essentially a repeatable counterspell with any bounce effect that also happens to tutor for whatever else you need. As if a repeatable counterspell wasn't good enough already.
Phyrexian Revoker: Honestly this guy is a better Pithing Needle in this deck because it is more readily available under most circumstances and it has the ability to shut down mana abilities, which is often times more useful than being able to name a land.
Spellskite: One of this deck's biggest problems is a continuous flow of spot removal keeping Vig off of the field. Skite is a preemptive repeatable counterspell of sorts that provides a bit of an insurance policy for Vig. Note that it is also recurrable with Academy Ruins.
Solemn Simulacrum: I just can't bring myself to cut this guy even though he has 0 synergy with Vig directly. He does, however, provide you with a colorless source of tempo and card advantage in one neat little package. To me he gets the nod over things like Farhaven Elf, Yavimaya Dryad, or Yavimaya Elder because he simply doesn't require a specific set of circumstances to be beneficial, colorless drawback aside. He is just about as solid as they come.
Duplicant: Unfortunately colorless, but is another creature that can get disgusting with bounce effects. Also easily gets around protection which makes up for the fact that he can't tutor through Vig.
Garruk Wildspeaker (Formerly): Mana ramps to get some more bang for your buck and also doubles as a win condition after you have established a considerable board presence.
Jace the Mind Sculptor: I'm not sure this one requires much explanation. He's good when you're behind, good when you're ahead, plays offense and defense, and provides yet another potential win condition in his ultimate.
Memory Lapse (Formerly): This deck thrives off of tempo advantage in the early turns. If I can slow the opponent down enough to get Vig through and protect him for a turn, things go bad for them fast. Typically I run this along with the two subsequent counters on top of my usual counter suite when I am playing 1v1 exclusively. Otherwise they typically aren't as valuable in a multiplayer environment.
Remand (Formerly): Another tempo counter that provides you with a cantrip.
Mana Drain: Why not? Essentially lands me a turn 3 Vig with permission available. Can also get stupid in the late game where people are throwing around 8+ mana spells.
Intuition: Used primarily to set up your combo. Fetch Eternal Witness and/or Body double in conjunction with whatever else you need. Popular targets are: Aluren, Equilibrium, Opposition, and Cloudstone Curio.
Capsize: Repeatable (with buyback) utility bounce spell that can lock players out of a particular card, or potentially all of their cards when you generate infinite mana.
Hinder: EDH staple for countering an opposing general, or can be used as an additional tempo counter. Great against decks that can use their graveyard to their advantage.
Voidslime: Amazing utility counter that can answer almost anything, resolved or not.
Cryptic Command: Again, and important utility counter that brings an additional effect (or two) to the table.
Evacuation: The reset button. This is a last ditch effort to save all of your hard work should it be jeopardized under any circumstance.
Force of Will: Free counters are always good. EDH is no exception.
Equilibrium: One of the bounce outlets that contributes to the infinite engine that Momir Vig assembles. This card is often taken for granted as a defensive threat. With the sheer number of (cheap) creatures in this deck, it becomes relatively easy to keep your opponent's board clear of creatures of their own.
Opposition: Another card that thrives provided an extensive creature count. This card can quickly lock an opponent out of the game, almost indefinitely, since every creature you play will, in one way or another, lead you into the next. This provides you an outlet to put your creatures to work immediately and becomes a real pain in the ass with a Seedborn Muse or a bounce outlet on your side.
Earthcraft: Similar to Opposition in that you can get additional use out of your creatures right of the bat. In some cases this can be nearly as good as an Aluren (see next) when you have a bounce outlet at your disposal.
Aluren: Free creatures are great. Free creatures at instant speed are stupid. Combine that with the chain-tutoring that Momir Vig allows and my vocabulary fails me...win, perhaps? This card is the nut for comboing off, however, don't be fooled into thinking that the deck requires Aluren to win. More often than not, I never even get around to playing it. I've found that Aluren is even better in EDH than most formats since most of the creatures that are typically played fall into the 4+ cmc range which makes it usually a very non-linear advantage in my favor.
Expedition Map: This card digs out the important lands in the deck, whether a Maze of Ith in a pinch, a Tolarian Academy/Gaea's Cradle to boost my mana, or a Riptide Laboratory to protect my general or bounce other key wizards for repetable effects. It is nice that I can find this via Trinket Mage as well.
Mana Vault (Formerly): Mana Acceleration that can be found via Trinket Mage in a pinch. It can also make for a turn 2 Vig which is usually pretty powerful.
Relic of Progenitus (Formerly): Trinket Mage-able graveyard hate that cantrips. What's not to like?
Sensei's Divining Top: All around good card for filtering draws. Works well with the vast number of shuffle effects that typically occur over the course of a game.
Pithing Needle (Formerly): Good for hating out problematic cards that hit the table.
Grim Monolith: Mana acceleration. The "doesn't untap" is often unimportant since Seedborn Muse is usually one of the first things I will find after getting Vig online.
Mind Stone (Formerly): Provides mana, but more importantly provides a cantrip to draw into an important creature that may have been stranded on top of my library after a Vig tutor.
Scroll Rack: At the very least it is another way to ensure that you have access to the creature on your topdeck following a green creature spell. Otherwise it turns irrelevent cards in hand into gold, especially with the gratuitous shuffling that this deck is known for.
Coalition Relic: Very good accelerant/fixer for EDH in general.
Cloudstone Curio: Yet another (free) repeatable bounce effect to get multiple uses out of your creatures. Again, part of the combo with Aluren to chain creatures indefinitely.
Crystal Shard: Repeatable bounce effect that can be offensive and defensive.
coming soon
Wood Elves: Everyone, myself included, at some point makes the mistake of thinking that Wood Elves is an obvious inclusion for the deck since they can fetch Tropical Island/Breeding Pool instead of a basic land. But read the card closely. Notice there is no "may" in the text. This makes for a very subtle, albeit important distinction. Lets say you topdeck into Wood Elves, your only green creature, with Momir Vig in play. Unless you have a Sensei's Divining Top/Mind Stone/Cycling Land/Blue Creature with Flash, it will be impossible for you to tutor up a creature with the Wood Elves since you are forced to search upon coming into play. Farhaven Elf doesn't have this problem, thus, he gets the nod over Wood Elves despite his lands coming into play tapped.
Genesis: Genesis is another one of those cards that is extremely powerful but not much help to this deck. He will really only impact the game at the point that you are typically already winning, and his ability can only be used during your upkeep. Instead I suggest using the recursion abilities of Eternal Witness or Body Double since they are not necessarily restricted by this and can have an immediate effect on the field, whereas Genesis, as I mentioned, has to wait.
Sylvan Library: This is an amazing source of early card advantage that can simply act to filter your draws or push through a debilitating string of topdecks. Typically the life payment is pretty irrelevent since the card advantage you gain will expedite your combo clock to nullify the impending damage clock.
How to Play the Deck:
It should be relatively plain to see that once this deck gets rolling, it can be nigh unstoppable by looking at the creature suite in conjunction with some of the repeatable bounce effects. However, if not executed properly, you probably aren't going very far. Typically the best tutor target to go after first, provided you have the mana available, is Seedborn Muse. That card and that card alone is responsible for allowing this deck to be able to not only built up your side of the field, but is also instrumental in assuring that you will still be able to respond to opposing threats with permission. Seedborn Muse also has the benefit of being a green creature, and as such, it will chain into another creature (that you will topdeck)*. Typically, next in line will be Mystic Snake since not only does he provide you the permission you desire, but he will chain another creature into your hand upon playing him. If you have a bounce outlet online, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is a wise subsequent target, but otherwise you can tutor up things that are relevant to the current gamestate. It is important that you try to chain into other green creatures as much as possible to keep your tutor loop going. Likewise, in the early game, you don't want to necessarily play out all of your green creatures before dropping Vig unless you have a way of getting a second use out of them, since at that point you are essentially relying upon your topdeck to provide your tutoring capability. There could always be extenuating circumstances where you might have to play them, but this is a safe premise to operate under nonetheless.
Make sure to pay attention to the stack at all times when you are playing. There will be times when, for example, it is more beneficial to have Vig's "play a blue creature" trigger resolve before the "play a green creature trigger if you happen to know that there is a creature you need on top of your library. Secondly, if you have a the ability to "flash" in creatures via Teferi or Aluren on board remember that Vig's triggers resolve before the creature you cast enters the battlefield. Therefore if you, for example, cast a Wistful Selkie, you can trigger both of Vig's abilities to find a creature to topdeck, put said creature into your hand, and play it to retrigger Vig all before you resolve Wistful Selkie's draw upon coming into play. Knowing these interactions is often key to keeping your tutor loop going without running into hitches.
*Notice that this deck utilizes cycling lands in conjunction with Sensei's Divining Top and Scroll Rack. Aside from being fine cards on their own, they can help you to get additional use out of green creatures you play by allowing you to have access to your topdeck immediately rather than having to wait until your next draw step. If you look closely at the decklist you will likely notice a number of other cards that allow a cantrip in a pinch, an intentional design consideration for the times when "Green Creature X" doesn't cut it.
I've seen a number of people mention that there is no apparent win condition in the deck. It is not that there is no win condition, it's moreso that the win condition isn't necessarily apparent to those who are unfamiliar with the deck. As I mentioned above, the most likely way you will win is by a scoop (to my dismay) since you will establish complete control of the game at one point or another. But for those opponents who have too much pride to throw in the towel, there is Tidespout Tyrant. You win by bouncing every permanent on their board indefinitely until you beat them down with a huge army of creatures. Alternatively, Garruk Wildspeaker is also renowned for doing good things with huge armies of creatures should you not be able to combo with the Tyrant. Additionally, I have won many many games by simply getting an Opposition lock. The deck plays a good number of creatures, most of which find other creatures, which effectively lets you tap down the board until you find a win condition and can play it without resistance.
Another little known fact is that after going infinite (see below) you can win directly via general damage. This is achieved by repeatedly tapping and untapping Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers and a green mana source ala Cloud of Faeries to pump Momir to your heart's content.
The primary combo that the deck strives to assemble revolves around the interaction between Aluren and a bounce engine such as Cloudstone Curio, Equilibrium, or Tidespout Tyrant. It works by using Vig's tutor ability in conjunction with these cards to create a loop of creature searching, casting, and bouncing to repeat key "comes into play" effects to win the game outright. Now, bear in mind that you do not need all of these pieces to make it work, and different combinations of these pieces will achieve varying degrees of combo potential. I will create some hypothetical scenarios to illustrate some of the key interactions.
Scenario #1 (Simplified Ideal):
Momir Vig is in play along with Aluren and Cloudstone Curio. You play an Elvish Visionary (or equivalent) which is free and flashy thanks to Aluren. Vig's "play a green" triggers and you search for Cloud of Faeries which goes to the top of your deck. The Visionary's CIP trigger resolves, drawing Cloud of Faeries. Cast Cloud of Faeries (also free and flashy), checking your topdeck for creatures for Vig's "play a blue" trigger, then use the Cloudstone trigger to bounce your Visionary. Faeries' CIP trigger resolves, untapping 2 lands and yielding 2 (or more) mana. Recast the Visionary finding Tidespout Tyrant and repeat the Visionary + Faeries loop to generate enough mana to cast the Tyrant. Proceed with the loop until you bounce every permanent (courtesy of the Tyrant trigger) until your opponent has no board position and subsequently wrap up the game however you see fit.
coming soon
Obvious/Not so Obvious Synergies:
coming soon
Sample Hands (taken at random from my deck...good or bad):
This hand is certainly keepable but it suggests following a very control based strategy moving forward, largely due to the presence of Opposition. Hopefully you will draw into a few more creatures to really twist that blade.
This is definitely keepable thanks to the Birds of Paradise. Between him and the Oracle you have the potential to reach 5 mana by turn 3 to power out that Slime.
yeah i have actually played both Jungle Barrier and Utopia tree and found the slivers to be better. i know that in the odd exception that you are playing against a sliver deck that they can provide an advantage to the opponent to a certain extent but in my experience dormant sliver has been more good than bad.
i'm not sure how much experience you have playing with or against Momir Vig, but if he hits play and i get an untap step/effect the game is more or less over so any benefit my opponents slivers will receive is short lived. i just like the "f you" effect Dormant Sliver brings to the table, and to be honest the slivers rarely see play anyway. i don't forsee them to be a problem as i havent run into any situations that are out of my control because of them yet and there are all too many sliver decks in my area.
How does a typical game playing Momir usually go? I mean, do you usually try to set up some sort of combo first, or do you just try to deal with threats and slowly win the game?
It all depends on the state of the game and the board position of your opponents. The great thing about Momir Vig is that he can be proactive and simply combo out, or he can be reactive and use his tricks to deal with nearly anything that is cast. You have the freedom to adjust your deck accordingly to match your particular play style.Typically i go the route of sitting back and letting the game develop in front of me first, without trying to end it too quickly, afterall it is EDH and supposed to be fun. If something comes up that really threatens my chances, I will respond to it by switching gears and going for the combo. "You hit me first, I'll hit you back twice as hard" mindset.
As I mentioned before, it doesn't take a whole lot to swing the game in your favor once you have Momir Vig on the board. I usually don't play him until I am reasonably sure he can survive the next seqence of my opponents' turns or if I have some protection in my hand.
The deck goes into hyperspeed when you have Cloudstone Curio/Equilibrium in play (both tutorable with Drift of Phantasms. And moreso when Aluren is added to the mix. You can go this route or go for the infi mana that is generated by either Cloud of Faeries or Palinchron when you have a land that produces more than 1 (of any color) or the aformentioned combo in play. In either case typically the wincon is Tidespout Tyrant, and while he doesn't win the game outright, he makes it virtually impossible for your opponents to recover.
Ok I have done some revamping of the deck and figured I would post my changes in an updated decklist. As you may notice I have sank a little money into the decklist (hint: check the instants section). I have tried and tested many a general and I still go back to Momir Vig at the end of the day. I love the synergy of this deck. IMO one of the best generals in the format, def within the top ten. Hope this can help somebody out there to refine their own list and/or help them decide upon an amazing general. As always questions and comments are welcome.
You hit the nail on the head, Mana Reflection is pretty much unnecessary due to the large amounts of mana generated by using Aluren + bounce effects (Equilibrium/Cloudstone Curio) along with Cloud of Faeries. I'm sure it would be good, but I haven't come across a situation yet that I was wishing I had one.
If you put in Painter's Servant you can name either blue or green so more of your creatures will cause both Momir effects to trigger. You can also run Wash Out and Reap to abuse him a bit more. If you name blue you can also pitch land to Force of Will which is hot tech.
I've never played against a Momir Vig deck that worked too well, so I tried your list out in MWS a few times. I goldfished it about 15 times and played 5 duels.
The deck is quite powerful once you get an engine--but it's very slow. I never really got rolling before at least turn 6, usually later. Mana was a big problem--it's what makes the deck slow. There's not much acceleration, and I had a lot of problems making land drops every turn. Even mulliganing a lot, I only managed to make land drops for the first 6 turns in about 20% of my games. I also played a couple games against decks that had moderate land destruction elements, and these just stomped me.
The other thing that worries me is how high the curve is, combined with the almost complete lack of removal due to the colors. I didn't test against them, but I don't feel like this would stand a chance against the really fast, mean decks in this format, like Braids, Erayo, Zur, or Rofellos. They're just flat-out much faster than you, and I don't think you can do enough to stop them before they lock up the game.
I haven't tested the deck enough to have many suggestions. You need to keep a high percentage of the deck creatures, which makes adjustments difficult. My feeling is that the deck needs a couple more artifact accelerants (like Mana Crypt, Coldsteel Heart, Thran Dynamo, Gilded Lotus) and a couple more ways to find land (like Yavimaya Elder, Farhaven Elf, Kodama's Reach, Nature's Lore). I think you also need 3 or so 1-2 mana spells that can answer a 2nd turn Braids or Rofellos or whatever. I'm honestly not sure what these could be though. Gilded Drake is a good start. If you can't find more, then you probably need even more acceleration, to speed the deck up enough to have a shot.
Also, your mana base could be improved. I don't see any need at all for Reliquary Tower--you just don't draw that many cards, and you need to make sure you hit both colors early. Undiscovered Paradise is just kind of bad. You're not running the fetchlands, which would help a lot with colorfixing. I think you should cut these 2 lands, and 1 of each basic, to fit in the 4 fetchlands that can hit forests or islands. Also, Strip Mine is a strict upgrade to Ghost Quarter, unless you're planning on hitting your own lands. You should probably make the switch.
I'll probably test more soon and give more feedback.
Really?...it sounds to me like MWS railed you more than anything. This deck is anything but slow, and the curve is relatively low all things considered in this format (3.72). Not to mention there are abundant ways to draw cards aside from the incredible card advantage that Momir Vig provides. True there are a couple lands that are not that great, Undiscovered Paradise being one of them but 38 land is really enough...believe me. I have played this deck for almost two years now and maybe that comes down to my experience speaking against a few games on MWS. True, the ball may not really get rolling until turn 5, seeing as that is how much the general costs, but that is not bad at all in this format. Let's be real here, are there really any decks out there that can match the likes of Braids, Zur, and Rofellos in terms of speed and consistency? If I'm being compared to those I'll take that as a compliment.
As far as removal goes, this deck is fairly limited (due to its colors), but it does have some answers in plentiful bounce and control magic effects. Farhaven Elf and the like are subpar because their search mechanic nerfs Vig's ability to find a creature to put on top. I realize that there is a "may" attached to the Elf, but what good is a green Gray Ogre in this deck? I will, however, consider Yavimaya Elder as I took him out some time ago and I'm not sure why he's not back in (removed him when group banned Genesis). Likewise Strip Mine was banned as well, hence the Ghost Quarter.
Sorry for the rambling or if I come off as defensive, I was trying to address all of your commentary. Thanks for taking the time to look it over and go as far as to test it. Your points are duely noted.
In addition to the Painter's Servant suggestion above I am wondering about Academy Ruins in the deck as you only have 9 artifacts and 3 of the are mana artifacts so really only 6 that you would normally want to recur. Temple of the False God would give you another land that tapped for 2.
Don't ask me why, but Painter's Servant is banned locally too :-/. Ruins mostly gets back Solemn Simulacrum or if I lose Curio along the way, but your right, it is a bit narrow. My worry is that temple doesn't do anything until turn 5, otherwise it is essentially a missed land drop.
Don't ask me why, but Painter's Servant is banned locally too :-/. Ruins mostly gets back Solemn Simulacrum or if I lose Curio along the way, but your right, it is a bit narrow. My worry is that temple doesn't do anything until turn 5, otherwise it is essentially a missed land drop.
I don't put it in all my decks but as long as you consistently make your land drops it should be good here. Was thinking more along the lines of it being an additional land that Cloud of Faeries & Palinchron can untap that produces 2 mana and you currently only have 3 lands that do so.
I used to run Lotus Vale but that thing has "hit me with targetted removal" written all over it. I'll test out the Temple and see how it goes. I may even try to include the Mana Reflection suggested earlier even though on the surface it seems a bit unnecessary, but who knows. Fable of Wolf and Owl, while very good, is somewhat of a winmore so I may try it in that slot. Otherwise I want to throw Yavimaya Elder in, though I'm not set on what to take out for him.
I used to run Lotus Vale but that thing has "hit me with targetted removal" written all over it. I'll test out the Temple and see how it goes. I may even try to include the Mana Reflection suggested earlier even though on the surface it seems a bit unnecessary, but who knows. Fable of Wolf and Owl, while very good, is somewhat of a winmore so I may try it in that slot. Otherwise I want to throw Yavimaya Elder in, though I'm not set on what to take out for him.
Having double your mana every turn, especially with Seedborn Muse in play can be pretty stupid. I have a similar type of deck and I also have Vedalken Orrery for even more stupidness so I'd recommend at least giving it a shot. The Elder is so very good, not one of those cards that is broken but basically a built in 3 for 1 in green. My initial impression is to take out Elvish Visionary or Wistful Selkie as you already have a lot of creatures that draw you a card when they come into play and the Elder performs a similar function in that he nets card advantage. Honestly, I'd take out both and add Yavimaya Elder & Mulldrifter. Thinking about Vedalken Orrery more I think it could be a good fit here as a second Teferi if you find flash to be working well with him.
You know its funny, I actually found Mulldrifter (cowering from the sharp objects about to be hurled at me) unimpressive. The deck wants green creatures that draw cards. Not that Mulldrifter isn't good but to be wholly efficient in this deck, you don't want to evoke him. You want him to stick around so that you can bounce and reuse him. He was another guy that got displaced when Genesis was banned in my local group. Wistful Selkie is actually really really good because he's a CA machine with Momir Vig out. He lets you tutor for whatever you want, puts it into your hand, then draws you a card. In a sense, he's like a better Mulldrifter when the deck kicks into gear. He is almost as good as Coiling Oracle which is the shiz in this deck "...oops, I guess I had Gaea's Cradle on top of my library...I suppose I'll put it into play".
You know its funny, I actually found Mulldrifter (cowering from the sharp objects about to be hurled at me) unimpressive. The deck wants green creatures that draw cards. Not that Mulldrifter isn't good but to be wholly efficient in this deck, you don't want to evoke him. You want him to stick around so that you can bounce and reuse him. He was another guy that got displaced when Genesis was banned in my local group. Wistful Selkie is actually really really good because he's a CA machine with Momir Vig out. He lets you tutor for whatever you want, puts it into your hand, then draws you a card. In a sense, he's like a better Mulldrifter when the deck kicks into gear. He is almost as good as Coiling Oracle which is the shiz in this deck "...oops, I guess I had Gaea's Cradle on top of my library...I suppose I'll put it into play".
Yeah I can definitely see Mulldrifter not being all that exciting now that I think about it more. How do you normally play the deck? Specifically do you normally try and get Teferi into play or he just there because he is good? If you don't go the Teferi or Seedborn Muse route most games then I assume you are often tapping out on your own turn making the expensive counters like Desertion & Spelljack weaker.
Well it really depends on who/what I am up against. But yes, Seedborn Muse is essentially my first search target unless there is something specific that I need, whether it be some sort of removal, control magic, or counterspell. Teferi is often quick to follow if I am playing against an opposing blue general. After that point I will usually combo out if necessary or simply control the gamestate with recurring CIP effects and tutoring. Another great creature to go alongside Seedborn Muse is Tradewind Rider.
What cards are locally banned for you that would otherwise make the list? If Strip Mine has gotten the axe, Wasteland is still better than Ghost Quarter. Don't tell me that's banned too? I still don't see any reason to not run the 4 fetchlands either. If you bought a Mana Drain for this deck, I'm assuming price isn't too much of a problem.
I'm still having incredibly bad mana problems with this deck, and hands that just plain don't work. You say there are abundant ways to draw cards--actually, you have 5 creatures that cantrip and Fact or Fiction. Honorable mentions to Trinket Mage and Cryptic Command. That's not terrible, but it's not abundant either. Your chances of drawing more than a single extra card before you can play Momir are very slim. That's not a lot of draw. True, once you can play Momir card advantage isn't a problem--but I'm saying that I usually can't even survive long enough to play Momir. At least in my playgroup, there's no way I can afford to do nothing significant in the early game. You can't rely on Momir to set up your early game because you can't get him out that quick (and that's not even considering that most opponents have some kind of removal, and he's susceptible to any of it.
To illustrate the point, I drew 10 sample hands in MWS. My list is the same as yours, except I made those land switches I recommended. I noted how many lands were in each hand and the casting costs of the other cards. I also noted if any of them worked as acceleration (meaning it found lands, added mana, or even just drew a card). From these openers, it's not hard to extrapolate the next couple of turns.
Hand 1:
1 Land: Vivid Grove
Casting Costs: 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5
No acceleration
Verdict: Unplayable.
Hand 2:
2 Land: Vivid Creek, Tree of Tales
Casting Costs: 1 (Pithing Needle), 3, 3, 5, 5
No acceleration
Verdict: You could try this, but it's very weak. You need to have 3 lands in the top 5 cards for this to work, and that's unlikely. It's going to be slow and not have much game.
Hand 3:
2 Land (effectively 1): Polluted Delta, Gaea’s Cradle
Casting Costs: 2 (wall of blossoms), 4 (solemn simulacrum) 5, 5, 8
Verdict: Unplayable. The Wall and Jens make this tempting, but you need to topdeck a land before you can do anything (I had this problem a lot in my test games). If you don't draw a land, you got nothing. Just to see, I checked the top of my deck--I would have to draw 3 cards to reach the first land. I couldn't even play the Wall until turn 4 or 5. This would have lost any game.
Hand 4:
3 Land: Treetop Village, Island, Simic Growth Chamber
Casting Costs: 2 (Simic Signet), 3, 4, 7
Verdict: This is actually just fine.
Hand 5:
2 Land: Polluted Delta, Island
Casting Costs: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
No acceleration
Verdict: Very weak. This is another hand where you have to topdeck 3 lands before you can do anything that matters, and that's just way too slow and unreliable.
Hand 6:
5 Lands, Plaxcaster Frogling, Kederekt Leviathan
Verdict: Flooded badly. You could keep this and it might work, but you'd be relying on topdecks to do anything at all that matters before turn 6.
Hand 7:
6 lands, Winged Coatl
Verdict: Flooded again, even worse. Unkeepable.
Hand 8:
1 Land: Seat of the Synod
Casting Costs: 3, 4, 4, 5, 6
No acceleration
Verdict: Totally Unkeepable.
Hand 9:
1 Land: Forest
Casting Costs: 2 (Wall of Blossoms), 3(Coalition Relic), 3, 3, 4, 4
Verdict: This is tempting, but needs lucky topdecks to function. You're getting Time Walked until you draw a land. Even then, you need to hit another land in the next 2 cards to go anywhere. This isn't a safe hand.
Verdict: Very Weak. Needs to draw naturally into 3 lands before you can play Momir and do anything that matters.
Okay, that's 10 hands. Those are exactly what the shuffler gave me. If you notice...only 1 out of those 10 hands was definitely keepable. I'm almost certain that any of the other 9 hands would have lost against any half-competent deck (2 of the hands were tempting, but would have been bad had they been kept).
Admittedly that's not a huge sample size, but that's pretty consistent with the other hands I've tested and played. 10% of hands being reasonable is just not good enough. I'm a good player, but when I was testing online vs casual, and honestly really bad decks, I was losing most of them simply because it took me so long to get going. Most of them, I never even got Momir to resolve or stay on the board, and this deck just doesn't function without Momir. If he cost 3 mana, I think this deck would be really good as it is--but he doesn't, and this deck can't even consistently get him out by turn 5. Of those sample hands above, perhaps 2 had a real shot at accomplishing that.
True, the ball may not really get rolling until turn 5, seeing as that is how much the general costs, but that is not bad at all in this format.
Maybe your group is a lot more casual than mine, or you play much larger games. In my experience, turn 5 is at least midgame. Very powerful things are happening by then. It's not at all unusual for more than one player to have access to more than 10 mana, and playing the most powerful cards in their decks. If there's any kind of deck with a lock-out tempo strategy, they'll DEFINITELY have you locked before you can even do anything.
You did say that you want this to be your competitive deck, and you're including Mana Drain, so I'm assuming that you want just that, to be competitive. My problem with this list is that I just can't see it having any game at all against the decks I would consider to be competitive, because you can't effectively disrupt them, and they're much faster than you. I'm not trying to insult your deck, I really want it to work because I think Momir is a fun and potentially powerful general--but I just don't see this deck having any real power at a competitive table. I haven't even been able to beat bad casual decks in 1v1, because the mana comes so slowly and the curve of useful cards is so awkward.
Let's be real here, are there really any decks out there that can match the likes of Braids, Zur, and Rofellos in terms of speed and consistency? If I'm being compared to those I'll take that as a compliment.
Well, I'm trying to compare you to them, but I can't yet. Again, I'm going off that "competitive" comment you made. I'm not expecting this deck to beat Braids, Zur, Rofellos, etc. every game, or even 50% of games--but I'd want it to be at least capable of beating them occasionally. I really don't feel like it can right now. Think about how easy it is for Braids, for example, to beat you...I bet that a Braids player on the play could just go Swamp, Swamp, Swamp, Swamp, Braids, and still beat you most of the time...and that's a ridiculously bad hand for Braids, who will much more often hit the table on turn 2 or 3. You just don't have any outs.
Edit: Also, you say 38 lands is enough. I somewhat disagree. It can be enough, but I think you need several more artifact acceleration cards to manage 38. However, you're not even really running 38--you're including Maze of Ith (which messed me up in a few duels) and Gaea's Cradle. Maze of Ith is never mana, and Gaea's Cradle usually doesn't make mana in the early game unless you're very lucky or have at least 2-3 other lands. Therefore, your effective land count is only 36, with 3 mana artifacts. This is definitely too low. For a comparison, I have a very tuned, very successful Sharuum list that runs 36 lands--but I also run basically every good artifact accelerant ever printed. I have 13 of them. I also have badass lands like Ancient Tomb, Mishra's Workshop, and Tolarian Academy that do the work of at least two other lands, and I have 2 more of the Ravicna bouncelands than you (which are typically like 2 lands). I also run a lot more card draw and tutors than you. All of that, and I still can't go comfortably go below 36 lands.
I feel quite confident in saying that you don't have nearly enough rapid mana. I think you need to go up to 38 real lands, not counting Maze of Ith and Gaea's Cradle, and you especially need to fit in more artifact accelerants to get out Momir faster, so your real game can start. The difference between playing Momir turn 5 (or 7 or 10, as I'm experiencing...) and playing him turn 3 or 4 is tremendous.
From what you were testing...I see that your requirement for a hand to be considered playable is having 3-4 mana, otherwise 2 is too few and 5 is starting to be too many. Well, math wise, this deck has the equivalent of having 23 lands in a 60 card deck. With a probability of drawing ~2.7 lands in an opening hand. If you extend this to the topdeck, lets say after three more draws, the probability for your land count goes to ~3.8. Based on probability alone, you will have potentially 4-5 mana at your disposal by fifth turn which is when things start to come online proactively. Keep in mind there are counters and other creatures, many at 3 mana or under that can serve as disruption in the early game. I usually have no problem keeping 2-3 land hands.
Again, it seems to me that if anything the shuffler in MWS, which most of us know as notorious for either flooding or screwing is doing just that. Only 1 out of those ten hands did you get the 3 lands necessary to keep by your standards when the mathematical probability states otherwise that you should be getting on average.
Personally I don't think the Fetch lands are all that great here. My reasoning being that the deck is on the verge of being low on lands already in your opinion and you are thinning it moreso by pulling lands out of it, decreasing your probability to draw one subsequently. If anything, the best lands to try here are the original Karoos, Coral Atoll and Jungle Basin, along with the Growth Chamber. Reason being that these do double duty. They produce 1U and 1G respectively to be used with Cloud of Faeries/Palinchron and they essentially turn a 2 land hand into a 3 land hand, provided you have an island/forest. Then again, I'm not sure having lands with a requirement are that great here either. True I may want to try to squeeze a couple more lands in as I used to have it at 40, Maze and Cradle aside.
What artifact accelerants are you referring to? I can see Grim Monolith, maybe. Gilded Lotus doesn't help much since it is so expensive to cast to begin with. Darksteel Ingot, Coldsteel heart, Mind Stone, and Prismatic Lens are ok. Other than that I am not in 3 colors so multiple Signets or even the Mirrodin Talismans are not within my spectrum.
I'll have to peruse my decklist to see if there is anything blatantly cuttable, but the list is extraordinarily tight even now, and like you said, I don't want to dip below ~40 creatures for fear the deck really wouldn't function. I think having 43 mana sources is ideally where it should be at, whether Lands, Artifacts, Creatures, etc. (as long as they are 3 mana or less) So far I have 35 reliable lands (I excluded Tolaria West as well) + 2 creatures + 3 artifacts = 40. So I would need 3 more to shore it up. Grim Monolith, Mind Stone, Prismatic Lens perhaps. I am also testing out, despite my inital resistance, both Farhaven Elf and Yavimaya Elder along with Mana Reflection. The cuts to accomodate these changes were: Elvish Visionary, Vigor, and Fable of Wolf and Owl
I want to see 3-4 mana sources in an opening hand, yes. 2 lands is fine so long as there's something between 1-3 that will also help your mana. You don't have many of those cards, so most 2 land hands aren't particularly viable in my opinion. I don't want to keep a 2 land hand with no action, because there's around a 40% chance that I'll be on 2 lands in a couple turns, and miss my third drop. After that, the odds of making each drop on time is only around 40% each. It doesn't work out well. I prefer testing to statistics--I tested out these kind of hands, both goldfishing and in games, and they just didn't work well.
I think your stated curve (3.8, or whatever it was) is very misleading, because a lot of your cheapest spells are actually terrible in the early game. Plaxmanta, Gilded Drake, Eternal Witness, Caller of the Claw...the list goes on. These are all lowering your average mana cost, but that doesn't say anything about your curve, because you're never going to be playing these as soon as you can. Rawdogging out a Caller of the Claw on turn 3 isn't going to win you any games. They may be in your opening hand, but that doesn't mean you have any action.
I think I'd go with Grim Monolith, Coldsteel Heart, and Darksteel Ingot for your artifact mana. You can use the colorfixing. Mana Vault might also be a good option.
43 mana sources still seems a little low to me--this deck really does have a high curve, and it can't afford to miss land drops before the 5th. I like the fetchlands mostly because they're excellent colorfixing. The slight thinning just means you can run a couple more lands than you usually would, which is really a good thing; it helps you make those drops on time. 35 lands is low for any deck in EDH, and this deck seems to need more than most decks, not less.
Your proposed cuts look good. I'm not convinced of the need for Mana Reflection--I think that once you make it to 6 mana, you're pretty much okay. The trouble is getting there.
As far as other possible cuts, I would take a look at these:
Kederekt Leviathan
Caller of the Claw
Pestermite
Plaxcaster Frogling
Those seem like the weakest cards to me, though I may be missing something for some of them. The Leviathan is ponderously expensive and I'm not sure you really need the effect, or make enough mana to take advantage of it. I guess it's good if you go infinite, but I don't know how often that happens. Caller of the Claw seems bad in this format. The bears are rarely going to be very relevant. If you've got 3 mana open, wouldn't you rather counter the wrath, than play this? I can think of absolutely no situation where I'd want this over a counterspell, so it shouldn't be here. Pestermite just seems boring. Why do you need a twiddle? I guess you can go infinite with this, but it's redundant with Cloud of Faeries. Plaxmanta Frogling sits at a really awkward place on the curve. You need to play it before Momir for it to protect Momir...but then it slows Momir down 2 turns if you actually want to protect it, because you have to keep 2 mana open. You'll never want to do that, so I don't see much use for this guy.
Also, Wasteland and Genesis are totally not bannable, and are really healthy cards for this format. Neither one is really broken or abusable, and Genesis is ridiculously easy to answer--any graveyard hate at all deals with it, and everyone should be running graveyard hate anyway. You should have a talk with your playgroup about these two, at least. I'm actually a big proponent of banning cards that are bad for the format (Gifts Ungiven should ABSOLUTELY be banned), but Genesis is just taking it too far.
Those all seem like reasonable cuts to me, tbh three of those were the exact cards that I, myself, was looking at (Caller of the Claw being the one that I wanted to keep). I just hate reducing my creature count. Pestermite isn't as bad as you might think as it is often clutch, sometimes tapping an opposing Grim Monolith or other mana producer to stall my opponent, and yes, it can make for the infinite loop similar to the Cloud of Faeries. Leviathan is good if I go infinite, but in that regard, Tidespout Tyrant does much of the same but better.
My argument against the fetch lands is because I only have the two duals, otherwise I am limited to grabbing a forest or island respectively. Unlike Sharuum where you have six duals along with 2 on-color fetchlands that can grab 1 of 2 relevant options.
Keep in mind to the 43 mana sources stated that there are 4 fetch mechanics built into STE, Yavimaya Elder, Farhaven Elf, and Jens. I think this should be sufficient.
The thing that I like about mana reflection on the surface is that it just makes everything a whole lot easier. Mana Reflection + Palinchron = gg in most cases if you have any sort of board position. Testing will tell, I haven't even tried a match with it yet.
Oh and believe me I hate the banlist too. I think some of the cards affected were banned blindly without any regard for their disruptability. Genesis especially.
Why do you want to keep Caller of the Claw? I still can't see how it's ever, ever better than a counterspell would be.
I don't agree with your argument against the fetchlands. If they're not usable for colorfixing, that means that you already have Tropical Island and Breeding Pool. If you have those, you really don't need colorfixing anymore. At that point, they're fine getting a Forest or Island. You're unlikely to need to pop them for anything else. It's not like a Forest is going to help you more than Wooded Foothills in that situation--there's really no downside.
There have been a couple instances where my opponent has Wrathed to some effect and Caller has gotten me upwards of 10 bears which have ultimately won me a game that I would have been struggling to recover from otherwise. The Caller can be really good because it is tutorable via Vig where counterspells, other than the counter creatures (ie Mystic Snake, Venser, Shaper Savant, and Draining Whelk) are not. He also fills a different role by being able to answer spells such as Decree of Pain, Molten Disaster, and Volcanic Fallout which can be backbreaking against this deck since most of the creatures are relatively small.
I took my first foray into EDH in October 2007 when I read some articles about the format online and it sparked my interest immediately. I was never much of a competitive M:tG player in the tournament scene due to the demanding time constraints of my college architectural program keeping me from playing in tournaments with any semblance of consistency. Additionally, I resented the idea that you had to be playing 1 of perhaps 8 viable decks at any given point in any of the sanctioned constructed formats to be taken seriously. Even the best decks quickly became boring to me and I lost interest in playing competitively as a result. My venture into EDH was therefore a seemingly predictable natural discourse since the casual singleton nature provided me with what seemed to be enough variation to hold my interest.
Despite not having much of an interest in the typical constructed formats, I did, however, build a number of relatively competitive decks, of which I had a favorite…Legacy ATS (Angry Tradewind Survival), a predominantly Blue/Green deck centered around a Survival of the Fittest toolbox strategy. Naturally, when it came to choosing a general, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary immediately stood out to me and seemed to resemble my preferred playstyle. It didn't take long for me to brainstorm a number of ways to develop the deck. By December ‘07 I had built a fully functional Momir Vig EDH deck (though perhaps not in its optimal state) and was toting it around Los Angeles in my free time, usually playing against the typical Standard decks du jour…and winning quite handily to many peoples’ surprise. At that time most people had no idea what EDH was, or clearly what it would become, but I began to notice people gradually taking interest.
As EDH has grown in popularity, so has my unwavering belief in the format and I have experimented with expanding my EDH arsenal to varying degrees of success. However, to this day I have yet to encounter another deck/general that I enjoy as much as Momir Vig, no questions asked. Often times I will dabble with playing other decks, and typically at least once during a match I will think to myself “If only I were playing Momir Vig instead, I probably could have done something about that”. So for the last three years I have been developing this deck through trial and error and extensive playtesting against a broad spectrum of generals, and one thing is for certain, Momir Vig is legit! He may not be the absolute "best" general available (though I personally believe him to be reasonably close to the top tier), but speaking from personal experience, he turns even the worst losses into games full of minor victories. Then again, I didn't build the deck because I thought it would be the best; rather, I took something that looked enjoyable and made it my pursuit to push it to the limit. I couldn't be happier with the result.
In and amongst the following you will find a record of the knowledge and experience I have gained while playing this deck for the past three years. I hope you will find it interesting, and perhaps a bit motivational as you continue to develop in this great format. As always, thank you for your insights and support. God bless.
Current Decklist:
1x Cloud of Faeries (foil)
1x Gilded Drake
1x Trinket Mage
1x Man-o'-War (arena foil)
1x Aether Adept (foil)
1x Vendilion Clique (dci foil)
1x Phyrexian Metamorph (foil)
1x Tradewind Rider (judge foil)
1x Venser, Shaper Savant (foil)
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Body Double (foil)
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir (foil)
1x Tidespout Tyrant (foil)
1x Birds of Paradise (foil)
1x Elvish Visionary (fnm foil)
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder (foil)
1x Wall of Blossoms (fnm foil)
1x Loaming Shaman (foil)
1x Tilling Treefolk (foil)
1x Uktabi Orangutan (arena foil)
1x Carven Caryatid (foil)
1x Eternal Witness (foil)
1x Acidic Slime (foil)
1x Seedborn Muse (foil)
1x Terastodon (foil)
1x Coiling Oracle (foil)
1x Wistful Selkie (foil)
1x Trygon Predator (foil)
1x Winged Coatl (foil)
1x Mystic Snake (foil)
1x Spellskite
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Duplicant
1x Jace the Mind Sculptor
1x Mana Drain
1x Capsize (fnm foil)
1x Hinder (foil)
1x Intuition
1x Beast Within
1x Voidslime (foil)
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Cryptic Command (foil)
1x Evacuation
1x Force of Will
1x Equilibrium
1x Opposition (foil)
1x Earthcraft
1x Aluren
1x Mana Crypt
1x Expedition Map (foil)
1x Sensei's Divining Top (foil)
1x Sol Ring
1x Grim Monolith
1x Scroll Rack
1x Simic Signet (foil)
1x Coalition Relic (foil)
1x Cloudstone Curio (foil)
1x Crystal Shard (foil)
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills (foil)
1x Tropical Island
1x Breeding Pool
1x Yavimaya Coast (foil)
1x Flooded Grove
1x Simic Growth Chamber (foil)
1x Lonely Sandbar
1x Seat of the Synod
9x Island
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Tree of Tales
4x Forest
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Maze of Ith
1x Strip Mine
1x Wasteland
1x Yavimaya Hollow
1x Academy Ruins
1x Riptide Laboratory (foil)
Deck Analysis:
coming soon
Why Play Momir Vig?
So you like toolboxing, huh? You like having an answer to practically everything? Well friends, you have come to the right place. Momir Vig, Simic Visionary holds the distinction of being, in my opinion, the ultimate toolbox utility general followed closely by Zur the Enchanter and Captain Sisay, those only trailing because under normal circumstances their tutoring capacity is limited to one activation per turn. Momir Vig, on the other hand, can chain multiple tutor effects together to create huge swings in tempo, card, and board advantage to the point of imminent victory. He may be limited to finding creatures, but with a diverse creature selection you can handle just about everything that is thrown your way.
If you enjoy combo decks, this deck might be for you. There are a number of fantastic combos that this deck regularly assembles (see Obvious/Subtle Synergies below), many of which make it very difficult for an opponent to keep pace. However, use caution if you are taking this deck into a new playgroup/meta because it will most likely elicit some resentment, and that's not fun for anyone. I should mention that I usually keep other less competitive decks handy whenever I play so that I don't step on any toes.
If you enjoy the strategic aspect of the game, this deck is definitely for you. Knowing what to play and when is crucial to this deck's success and I particularly enjoy the thought process and mindfulness that this deck requires to be piloted optimally. I like to view each and every match as a mental exercise. Even after playing this deck for 3 years, I am still discovering little tricks here and there. You will learn a great deal about this deck by goldfishing it routinely and trying to hone in on the subtleties and intricacies that emerge. The beauty, as they say, is in the details.
If you like to win by concession/submission, again, this might be for you. Probably 8/10 matches that this deck wins are by concession. Your opponent will inevitably see no conceivable way to win and begrudgingly scoop. Admittedly, I don't like to win this way persay, but for me the fun isn't in winning anyway, it is in the incremental advantages gained leading up to the win. It might sound cliche, in fact...it most definitely will, but playing this deck encourages you to embrace the journey, not the destination.
If you just like to beat face...this deck is not for you.
Still not convinced? Read on.
Card Explanations:
Cloud of Faeries: Primarily, this serves as a piece of the main combo that the deck assembles. Cloud of Faeries + lands that produce more than 1 mana + repeatable bounce effect = infinite mana. Can also be used in combination with Aluren + repeatable bounce effect to achieve the same effect. Many people also run Palinchron to supplement the Faeries, but I think it is a bit redundant and unnecessary, especially since his mana cost is very steep for this deck.
Gilded Drake: Excellent with all of the bounce effects in the deck since you will still retain control of the stolen creature when Drake leaves the battlefield. Gilded Drake, in particular, is very good at stealing early generals since, more often than not, they aren't expecting a Control Magic effect so early. He can be the deciding factor in matchups, like Rofellos, Zur, or Arcum, where typically they will hit their curve much faster than you.
Trinket Mage: Typically used for a mana boost ala Sol Ring or Mana Crypt but can also dig out Pithing Needle as an answer or Expedition Map to find a land of your choice. Also notice Seat of the Synod and Tree of Tales are included in the land section if, for some reason, you absolutely need a land drop.
Man-o'-War: Really good bounce effect to work proactively to further your combo potential or reactively to get rid of an opposing threat. I don't think you're ready for this jelly.
Aether Adept: Essentially Man-o'-War #2 with the added benefit of being a Wizard for a slightly more prohibitive mana cost.
Vendilion Clique: They are the Bomb hunters. They serve to make sure that your opponent isn't holding a hugely swingy spell to jack up your plans. Also can be used for a cantrip for you in a pinch. Additionally, it is typically a strong play to bounce an opposing general and Clique it to the bottom of that player's library to really mess them up. If anyone has ever played against a Clique deck, you probably know where I am coming from.
Clone (Formerly): Clone serves two main purposes: potentially doubling up with a CIP/ETB effect of a creature that is already on the field, or is a fantastic general killer and since his ability doesn't target not even Uril or a shrouded Zur are safe.
[CARD]
Phyrexian Metamorph[/CARD]: Clone but with the added utility of being able to copy artifacts in a cheaper package. What's not to like?
Tradewind Rider: Awesome bounce effect since there are so many creatures in this deck. He gets disgusting when Seedborn Muse is also involved. Many people underestimate this guy, notice he bounces permanents, not just creatures.
Sower of Temptation: A little more control magic never hurts.
Venser, Shaper Savant: Essentially Man-o'-War #3 but with a little bonus of being able to bounce a permanent or "counter" spells in a pinch...nice Banefire...
Body Double: He lets you take advantage of cards that have been killed along the way or works well with cards that were intentionally put in the grave via Intuition, etc.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: Anybody who's been on the other end of this guy knows he's very hard to play against. Teferi + Seedborn Muse makes it really difficult to your opponent(s) to do anything worthwhile.
Draining Whelk (Formerly): Potentially huge flier that counters a spell to boot. Probably the worst creature of the pack but is still a formidable threat.
Tidespout Tyrant: Actually the deck's primary win condition. Combo off, bounce all of your opponents' stuff, play your entire deck (if they don't scoop beforehand), and proceed to the next game.
Birds of Paradise: Valuable mana acceleration and fixing. Oldie but goodie.
Elvish Visionary: See Wall of Blossoms explanation below.
Lotus Cobra: Essentially Birds #2 but with the potential for an added benefit in the acceleration department with a fetch land or mana ramp card.
Riftsweeper (Formerly): Another card that has two major functions: retrieve something that was RFG'd/Exiled to be shuffled in for later use, or screw with suspend strategies (Jhoira and Co.). He is actually very much a meta consideration, he can be removed in favor of something a bit more consistent if you don't see a lot of suspend.
Sakura-Tribe Elder: Mana ramps and chump blocks.
Wall of Blossoms: With Momir Vig in play this might as well be Demonic Tutor. Awesome source of card advantage once you get your engine running.
Farhaven Elf (Formerly): More mana ramp that has an optional search tacked on...which is actually very important. More on that later.
Loaming Shaman: Another card that doubles on offense and defense. Can shuffle in your graveyard to get something back for reuse, or screw with reanimation/survival strategies (Iname and co.)
Tilling Treefolk: In this deck Tilling Treefolk is a better Life from the Loam. He brings back fetchlands for reuse, cyclers for additional draw power, and Strip Mine and/or Wasteland for a soft lock. The fact that he is a creature makes him easily tutorable and potentially instant speed when Aluren or Teferi are part of the equation.
Uktabi Orangutan: Artifact destruction that is on the lower end of the curve and conveniently sneaks in under an Aluren. This in conjunction with another (3cmc or less) creature + Aluren + repeatable bounce allows you to machine-gun artifacts as you please.
Carven Caryatid: If Wall of Blossoms = Demonic Tutor in this deck, this = Grim Tutor (without the life loss).
Eternal Witness: Recursion engine with plenty of bounce to keep it fueled.
Acidic Slime: Will always have a relevant target to destroy and makes an opponent think twice in combat, especially if you have Teferi on your side.
Seedborn Muse: This card is made of win. This allows you to simultaneously build up your army and have mana open for permission spells on an opponent's turn. As mentioned before, this gets insane with either Tradewind Rider or Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
Terastodon: So far this guy has been amazing in testing. The ability to take out multiple targets is superb. The elephants it leaves behind are negligible since you will most likely always have the board advantage when this guy comes out. It hasn't come up yet, but the ability to take out some of your own unimportant permanents for attack power is not to be underestimated.
Coiling Oracle: This dude has card advantage written all over him. Not only is he a Demonic Tutor, he also either draws you a card or ramps your mana to boot. If you are able to combo out, this guy will let you literally play out your entire deck...lands and all. Oddly enough, he is probably the best creature in the deck.
Wistful Selkie: See above, she falls under the same category as Coiling Oracle, but without the potential for ramp. The fact that she is a wizard is also very important for reasons i will get to further down the list. The ability to spent only Green mana for the cost is also extremely beneficial at times since your most fruitful mana source will often be Gaea's Cradle (which will typically produce upwards of 6 mana).
Trygon Predator: He is an incredibly cost-effective attacker with a killer ability built in. Truth be told, he is essentially just a solid blue/green creature that will trigger both of Vig's abilities but brings something else to the table in combat.
Winged Coatl: This is one mean snake on a plane. Has flash, triggers both of Vig's abilities, and takes out something (shrouded or not) in combat. He has a knack for catching opponents with their pants down.
Mystic Snake: This is essentially a repeatable counterspell with any bounce effect that also happens to tutor for whatever else you need. As if a repeatable counterspell wasn't good enough already.
Simic Sky Swallower (Formerly): Beef. It's what's for dinner.
Phyrexian Revoker: Honestly this guy is a better Pithing Needle in this deck because it is more readily available under most circumstances and it has the ability to shut down mana abilities, which is often times more useful than being able to name a land.
Spellskite: One of this deck's biggest problems is a continuous flow of spot removal keeping Vig off of the field. Skite is a preemptive repeatable counterspell of sorts that provides a bit of an insurance policy for Vig. Note that it is also recurrable with Academy Ruins.
Solemn Simulacrum: I just can't bring myself to cut this guy even though he has 0 synergy with Vig directly. He does, however, provide you with a colorless source of tempo and card advantage in one neat little package. To me he gets the nod over things like Farhaven Elf, Yavimaya Dryad, or Yavimaya Elder because he simply doesn't require a specific set of circumstances to be beneficial, colorless drawback aside. He is just about as solid as they come.
Duplicant: Unfortunately colorless, but is another creature that can get disgusting with bounce effects. Also easily gets around protection which makes up for the fact that he can't tutor through Vig.
Garruk Wildspeaker (Formerly): Mana ramps to get some more bang for your buck and also doubles as a win condition after you have established a considerable board presence.
Jace the Mind Sculptor: I'm not sure this one requires much explanation. He's good when you're behind, good when you're ahead, plays offense and defense, and provides yet another potential win condition in his ultimate.
Memory Lapse (Formerly): This deck thrives off of tempo advantage in the early turns. If I can slow the opponent down enough to get Vig through and protect him for a turn, things go bad for them fast. Typically I run this along with the two subsequent counters on top of my usual counter suite when I am playing 1v1 exclusively. Otherwise they typically aren't as valuable in a multiplayer environment.
Remand (Formerly): Another tempo counter that provides you with a cantrip.
Counterspell (Formerly): The original gangster.
Mana Drain: Why not? Essentially lands me a turn 3 Vig with permission available. Can also get stupid in the late game where people are throwing around 8+ mana spells.
Intuition: Used primarily to set up your combo. Fetch Eternal Witness and/or Body double in conjunction with whatever else you need. Popular targets are: Aluren, Equilibrium, Opposition, and Cloudstone Curio.
Capsize: Repeatable (with buyback) utility bounce spell that can lock players out of a particular card, or potentially all of their cards when you generate infinite mana.
Hinder: EDH staple for countering an opposing general, or can be used as an additional tempo counter. Great against decks that can use their graveyard to their advantage.
Voidslime: Amazing utility counter that can answer almost anything, resolved or not.
Fact or Fiction: Pure unadulterated card advantage.
Cryptic Command: Again, and important utility counter that brings an additional effect (or two) to the table.
Evacuation: The reset button. This is a last ditch effort to save all of your hard work should it be jeopardized under any circumstance.
Force of Will: Free counters are always good. EDH is no exception.
Equilibrium: One of the bounce outlets that contributes to the infinite engine that Momir Vig assembles. This card is often taken for granted as a defensive threat. With the sheer number of (cheap) creatures in this deck, it becomes relatively easy to keep your opponent's board clear of creatures of their own.
Opposition: Another card that thrives provided an extensive creature count. This card can quickly lock an opponent out of the game, almost indefinitely, since every creature you play will, in one way or another, lead you into the next. This provides you an outlet to put your creatures to work immediately and becomes a real pain in the ass with a Seedborn Muse or a bounce outlet on your side.
Earthcraft: Similar to Opposition in that you can get additional use out of your creatures right of the bat. In some cases this can be nearly as good as an Aluren (see next) when you have a bounce outlet at your disposal.
Aluren: Free creatures are great. Free creatures at instant speed are stupid. Combine that with the chain-tutoring that Momir Vig allows and my vocabulary fails me...win, perhaps? This card is the nut for comboing off, however, don't be fooled into thinking that the deck requires Aluren to win. More often than not, I never even get around to playing it. I've found that Aluren is even better in EDH than most formats since most of the creatures that are typically played fall into the 4+ cmc range which makes it usually a very non-linear advantage in my favor.
Mana Crypt: Huge tempo advantage.
Sol Ring: More huge tempo advantage.
Expedition Map: This card digs out the important lands in the deck, whether a Maze of Ith in a pinch, a Tolarian Academy/Gaea's Cradle to boost my mana, or a Riptide Laboratory to protect my general or bounce other key wizards for repetable effects. It is nice that I can find this via Trinket Mage as well.
Mana Vault (Formerly): Mana Acceleration that can be found via Trinket Mage in a pinch. It can also make for a turn 2 Vig which is usually pretty powerful.
Relic of Progenitus (Formerly): Trinket Mage-able graveyard hate that cantrips. What's not to like?
Sensei's Divining Top: All around good card for filtering draws. Works well with the vast number of shuffle effects that typically occur over the course of a game.
Pithing Needle (Formerly): Good for hating out problematic cards that hit the table.
Grim Monolith: Mana acceleration. The "doesn't untap" is often unimportant since Seedborn Muse is usually one of the first things I will find after getting Vig online.
Mind Stone (Formerly): Provides mana, but more importantly provides a cantrip to draw into an important creature that may have been stranded on top of my library after a Vig tutor.
Scroll Rack: At the very least it is another way to ensure that you have access to the creature on your topdeck following a green creature spell. Otherwise it turns irrelevent cards in hand into gold, especially with the gratuitous shuffling that this deck is known for.
Simic Signet: Mana acceleration + fixing.
Coalition Relic: Very good accelerant/fixer for EDH in general.
Cloudstone Curio: Yet another (free) repeatable bounce effect to get multiple uses out of your creatures. Again, part of the combo with Aluren to chain creatures indefinitely.
Crystal Shard: Repeatable bounce effect that can be offensive and defensive.
coming soon
Wood Elves: Everyone, myself included, at some point makes the mistake of thinking that Wood Elves is an obvious inclusion for the deck since they can fetch Tropical Island/Breeding Pool instead of a basic land. But read the card closely. Notice there is no "may" in the text. This makes for a very subtle, albeit important distinction. Lets say you topdeck into Wood Elves, your only green creature, with Momir Vig in play. Unless you have a Sensei's Divining Top/Mind Stone/Cycling Land/Blue Creature with Flash, it will be impossible for you to tutor up a creature with the Wood Elves since you are forced to search upon coming into play. Farhaven Elf doesn't have this problem, thus, he gets the nod over Wood Elves despite his lands coming into play tapped.
Genesis: Genesis is another one of those cards that is extremely powerful but not much help to this deck. He will really only impact the game at the point that you are typically already winning, and his ability can only be used during your upkeep. Instead I suggest using the recursion abilities of Eternal Witness or Body Double since they are not necessarily restricted by this and can have an immediate effect on the field, whereas Genesis, as I mentioned, has to wait.
Sylvan Library: This is an amazing source of early card advantage that can simply act to filter your draws or push through a debilitating string of topdecks. Typically the life payment is pretty irrelevent since the card advantage you gain will expedite your combo clock to nullify the impending damage clock.
How to Play the Deck:
Make sure to pay attention to the stack at all times when you are playing. There will be times when, for example, it is more beneficial to have Vig's "play a blue creature" trigger resolve before the "play a green creature trigger if you happen to know that there is a creature you need on top of your library. Secondly, if you have a the ability to "flash" in creatures via Teferi or Aluren on board remember that Vig's triggers resolve before the creature you cast enters the battlefield. Therefore if you, for example, cast a Wistful Selkie, you can trigger both of Vig's abilities to find a creature to topdeck, put said creature into your hand, and play it to retrigger Vig all before you resolve Wistful Selkie's draw upon coming into play. Knowing these interactions is often key to keeping your tutor loop going without running into hitches.
*Notice that this deck utilizes cycling lands in conjunction with Sensei's Divining Top and Scroll Rack. Aside from being fine cards on their own, they can help you to get additional use out of green creatures you play by allowing you to have access to your topdeck immediately rather than having to wait until your next draw step. If you look closely at the decklist you will likely notice a number of other cards that allow a cantrip in a pinch, an intentional design consideration for the times when "Green Creature X" doesn't cut it.
Another little known fact is that after going infinite (see below) you can win directly via general damage. This is achieved by repeatedly tapping and untapping Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers and a green mana source ala Cloud of Faeries to pump Momir to your heart's content.
The primary combo that the deck strives to assemble revolves around the interaction between Aluren and a bounce engine such as Cloudstone Curio, Equilibrium, or Tidespout Tyrant. It works by using Vig's tutor ability in conjunction with these cards to create a loop of creature searching, casting, and bouncing to repeat key "comes into play" effects to win the game outright. Now, bear in mind that you do not need all of these pieces to make it work, and different combinations of these pieces will achieve varying degrees of combo potential. I will create some hypothetical scenarios to illustrate some of the key interactions.
Scenario #1 (Simplified Ideal):
Momir Vig is in play along with Aluren and Cloudstone Curio. You play an Elvish Visionary (or equivalent) which is free and flashy thanks to Aluren. Vig's "play a green" triggers and you search for Cloud of Faeries which goes to the top of your deck. The Visionary's CIP trigger resolves, drawing Cloud of Faeries. Cast Cloud of Faeries (also free and flashy), checking your topdeck for creatures for Vig's "play a blue" trigger, then use the Cloudstone trigger to bounce your Visionary. Faeries' CIP trigger resolves, untapping 2 lands and yielding 2 (or more) mana. Recast the Visionary finding Tidespout Tyrant and repeat the Visionary + Faeries loop to generate enough mana to cast the Tyrant. Proceed with the loop until you bounce every permanent (courtesy of the Tyrant trigger) until your opponent has no board position and subsequently wrap up the game however you see fit.
coming soon
Obvious/Not so Obvious Synergies:
coming soon
Sample Hands (taken at random from my deck...good or bad):
1x Island
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Cloud of Faeries
1x Aether Adept
1x Opposition
1x Force of Will
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Remote Isle
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Island
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Coiling Oracle
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Acidic Slime
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Gilded Drake
1x Trygon Predator
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Cryptic Command
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Island
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Academy Ruins
1x Pithing Needle
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Windswept Heath
1x Grim Monolith
1x Coiling Oracle
1x Earthcraft
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Acidic Slime
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Grove
1x Cloud of Faeries
1x Yavimaya Dryad
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Island
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Scroll Rack
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Carven Caryatid
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Yavimaya Hollow
1x Coalition Relic
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Trinket Mage
1x Winged Coatl
1x Yavimaya Dryad
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Island
1x Flooded Grove
1x Pithing Needle
1x Aluren
1x Duplicant
Matchup Analysis:
Changelog:
6/30/10
- Tolarian Academy (banned)
- Mind Stone
+ Island
+ Scroll Rack
Pictures:
*If you have any of these cards in foil versions, (the ones that I don't already own), PM me for trade inquiries. I'm very interested. Thanks.
Goldfish the Deck: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/momir-vig-edh-5/
Endorsements: For an alternative, more combo-centric take on Momir Vig, be sure to check out d0su's Zero Card Combo deck here. It's the real deal.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
i'm not sure how much experience you have playing with or against Momir Vig, but if he hits play and i get an untap step/effect the game is more or less over so any benefit my opponents slivers will receive is short lived. i just like the "f you" effect Dormant Sliver brings to the table, and to be honest the slivers rarely see play anyway. i don't forsee them to be a problem as i havent run into any situations that are out of my control because of them yet and there are all too many sliver decks in my area.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
As I mentioned before, it doesn't take a whole lot to swing the game in your favor once you have Momir Vig on the board. I usually don't play him until I am reasonably sure he can survive the next seqence of my opponents' turns or if I have some protection in my hand.
The deck goes into hyperspeed when you have Cloudstone Curio/Equilibrium in play (both tutorable with Drift of Phantasms. And moreso when Aluren is added to the mix. You can go this route or go for the infi mana that is generated by either Cloud of Faeries or Palinchron when you have a land that produces more than 1 (of any color) or the aformentioned combo in play. In either case typically the wincon is Tidespout Tyrant, and while he doesn't win the game outright, he makes it virtually impossible for your opponents to recover.
Did I answer your question?
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
1x Cloud of Faeries
1x Gilded Drake
1x Plaxmanta
1x Trinket Mage
1x Man-o'-War
1x Pestermite
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Tradewind Rider
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Body Double
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Magus of the Future
1x Draining Whelk
1x Palinchron
1x Kederekt Leviathan
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Elvish Visionary
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Wall of Roots
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Caller of the Claw
1x Carven Caryatid
1x Eternal Witness
1x Indrik Stomphowler
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Vigor
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Wistful Selkie
1x Plaxcaster Frogling
1x Trygon Predator
1x Winged Coatl
1x Mystic Snake
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Duplicant
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Brainstorm
1x Mana Drain
1x Krosan Grip
1x Capsize
1x Hinder
1x Voidslime
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Cryptic Command
1x Force of Will
1x Equilibrium
1x Opposition
1x Aluren
1x Fable of Wolf and Owl
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Simic Signet
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Coalition Relic
1x Crystal Shard
1x Tropical Island
1x Breeding Pool
1x Yavimaya Coast
1x Skyshroud Forest
1x Flooded Grove
1x Simic Growth Chamber
1x City of Brass
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Undiscovered Paradise
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Grove
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x Tolaria West
1x Faerie Conclave
1x Seat of the Synod
5x Island
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1x Pendelhaven
1x Treetop Village
1x Tree of Tales
5x Forest
1x Maze of Ith
1x Vesuva
1x Academy Ruins
1x Yavimaya Hollow
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Riptide Laboratory
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Winding Canyons
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
1800+ in Limited
3-0ing after drafting 17 non-basics in Cube
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
The deck is quite powerful once you get an engine--but it's very slow. I never really got rolling before at least turn 6, usually later. Mana was a big problem--it's what makes the deck slow. There's not much acceleration, and I had a lot of problems making land drops every turn. Even mulliganing a lot, I only managed to make land drops for the first 6 turns in about 20% of my games. I also played a couple games against decks that had moderate land destruction elements, and these just stomped me.
The other thing that worries me is how high the curve is, combined with the almost complete lack of removal due to the colors. I didn't test against them, but I don't feel like this would stand a chance against the really fast, mean decks in this format, like Braids, Erayo, Zur, or Rofellos. They're just flat-out much faster than you, and I don't think you can do enough to stop them before they lock up the game.
I haven't tested the deck enough to have many suggestions. You need to keep a high percentage of the deck creatures, which makes adjustments difficult. My feeling is that the deck needs a couple more artifact accelerants (like Mana Crypt, Coldsteel Heart, Thran Dynamo, Gilded Lotus) and a couple more ways to find land (like Yavimaya Elder, Farhaven Elf, Kodama's Reach, Nature's Lore). I think you also need 3 or so 1-2 mana spells that can answer a 2nd turn Braids or Rofellos or whatever. I'm honestly not sure what these could be though. Gilded Drake is a good start. If you can't find more, then you probably need even more acceleration, to speed the deck up enough to have a shot.
Also, your mana base could be improved. I don't see any need at all for Reliquary Tower--you just don't draw that many cards, and you need to make sure you hit both colors early. Undiscovered Paradise is just kind of bad. You're not running the fetchlands, which would help a lot with colorfixing. I think you should cut these 2 lands, and 1 of each basic, to fit in the 4 fetchlands that can hit forests or islands. Also, Strip Mine is a strict upgrade to Ghost Quarter, unless you're planning on hitting your own lands. You should probably make the switch.
I'll probably test more soon and give more feedback.
As far as removal goes, this deck is fairly limited (due to its colors), but it does have some answers in plentiful bounce and control magic effects. Farhaven Elf and the like are subpar because their search mechanic nerfs Vig's ability to find a creature to put on top. I realize that there is a "may" attached to the Elf, but what good is a green Gray Ogre in this deck? I will, however, consider Yavimaya Elder as I took him out some time ago and I'm not sure why he's not back in (removed him when group banned Genesis). Likewise Strip Mine was banned as well, hence the Ghost Quarter.
Sorry for the rambling or if I come off as defensive, I was trying to address all of your commentary. Thanks for taking the time to look it over and go as far as to test it. Your points are duely noted.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I don't put it in all my decks but as long as you consistently make your land drops it should be good here. Was thinking more along the lines of it being an additional land that Cloud of Faeries & Palinchron can untap that produces 2 mana and you currently only have 3 lands that do so.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Having double your mana every turn, especially with Seedborn Muse in play can be pretty stupid. I have a similar type of deck and I also have Vedalken Orrery for even more stupidness so I'd recommend at least giving it a shot. The Elder is so very good, not one of those cards that is broken but basically a built in 3 for 1 in green. My initial impression is to take out Elvish Visionary or Wistful Selkie as you already have a lot of creatures that draw you a card when they come into play and the Elder performs a similar function in that he nets card advantage. Honestly, I'd take out both and add Yavimaya Elder & Mulldrifter. Thinking about Vedalken Orrery more I think it could be a good fit here as a second Teferi if you find flash to be working well with him.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Yeah I can definitely see Mulldrifter not being all that exciting now that I think about it more. How do you normally play the deck? Specifically do you normally try and get Teferi into play or he just there because he is good? If you don't go the Teferi or Seedborn Muse route most games then I assume you are often tapping out on your own turn making the expensive counters like Desertion & Spelljack weaker.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I'm still having incredibly bad mana problems with this deck, and hands that just plain don't work. You say there are abundant ways to draw cards--actually, you have 5 creatures that cantrip and Fact or Fiction. Honorable mentions to Trinket Mage and Cryptic Command. That's not terrible, but it's not abundant either. Your chances of drawing more than a single extra card before you can play Momir are very slim. That's not a lot of draw. True, once you can play Momir card advantage isn't a problem--but I'm saying that I usually can't even survive long enough to play Momir. At least in my playgroup, there's no way I can afford to do nothing significant in the early game. You can't rely on Momir to set up your early game because you can't get him out that quick (and that's not even considering that most opponents have some kind of removal, and he's susceptible to any of it.
To illustrate the point, I drew 10 sample hands in MWS. My list is the same as yours, except I made those land switches I recommended. I noted how many lands were in each hand and the casting costs of the other cards. I also noted if any of them worked as acceleration (meaning it found lands, added mana, or even just drew a card). From these openers, it's not hard to extrapolate the next couple of turns.
Hand 1:
1 Land: Vivid Grove
Casting Costs: 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5
No acceleration
Verdict: Unplayable.
Hand 2:
2 Land: Vivid Creek, Tree of Tales
Casting Costs: 1 (Pithing Needle), 3, 3, 5, 5
No acceleration
Verdict: You could try this, but it's very weak. You need to have 3 lands in the top 5 cards for this to work, and that's unlikely. It's going to be slow and not have much game.
Hand 3:
2 Land (effectively 1): Polluted Delta, Gaea’s Cradle
Casting Costs: 2 (wall of blossoms), 4 (solemn simulacrum) 5, 5, 8
Verdict: Unplayable. The Wall and Jens make this tempting, but you need to topdeck a land before you can do anything (I had this problem a lot in my test games). If you don't draw a land, you got nothing. Just to see, I checked the top of my deck--I would have to draw 3 cards to reach the first land. I couldn't even play the Wall until turn 4 or 5. This would have lost any game.
Hand 4:
3 Land: Treetop Village, Island, Simic Growth Chamber
Casting Costs: 2 (Simic Signet), 3, 4, 7
Verdict: This is actually just fine.
Hand 5:
2 Land: Polluted Delta, Island
Casting Costs: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
No acceleration
Verdict: Very weak. This is another hand where you have to topdeck 3 lands before you can do anything that matters, and that's just way too slow and unreliable.
Hand 6:
5 Lands, Plaxcaster Frogling, Kederekt Leviathan
Verdict: Flooded badly. You could keep this and it might work, but you'd be relying on topdecks to do anything at all that matters before turn 6.
Hand 7:
6 lands, Winged Coatl
Verdict: Flooded again, even worse. Unkeepable.
Hand 8:
1 Land: Seat of the Synod
Casting Costs: 3, 4, 4, 5, 6
No acceleration
Verdict: Totally Unkeepable.
Hand 9:
1 Land: Forest
Casting Costs: 2 (Wall of Blossoms), 3(Coalition Relic), 3, 3, 4, 4
Verdict: This is tempting, but needs lucky topdecks to function. You're getting Time Walked until you draw a land. Even then, you need to hit another land in the next 2 cards to go anywhere. This isn't a safe hand.
Hand 10:
2 Land: Okina, Vesuva
Casting Costs: 1 (Pithing Needle), 3, 4, 7, 8
Verdict: Very Weak. Needs to draw naturally into 3 lands before you can play Momir and do anything that matters.
Okay, that's 10 hands. Those are exactly what the shuffler gave me. If you notice...only 1 out of those 10 hands was definitely keepable. I'm almost certain that any of the other 9 hands would have lost against any half-competent deck (2 of the hands were tempting, but would have been bad had they been kept).
Admittedly that's not a huge sample size, but that's pretty consistent with the other hands I've tested and played. 10% of hands being reasonable is just not good enough. I'm a good player, but when I was testing online vs casual, and honestly really bad decks, I was losing most of them simply because it took me so long to get going. Most of them, I never even got Momir to resolve or stay on the board, and this deck just doesn't function without Momir. If he cost 3 mana, I think this deck would be really good as it is--but he doesn't, and this deck can't even consistently get him out by turn 5. Of those sample hands above, perhaps 2 had a real shot at accomplishing that.
Maybe your group is a lot more casual than mine, or you play much larger games. In my experience, turn 5 is at least midgame. Very powerful things are happening by then. It's not at all unusual for more than one player to have access to more than 10 mana, and playing the most powerful cards in their decks. If there's any kind of deck with a lock-out tempo strategy, they'll DEFINITELY have you locked before you can even do anything.
You did say that you want this to be your competitive deck, and you're including Mana Drain, so I'm assuming that you want just that, to be competitive. My problem with this list is that I just can't see it having any game at all against the decks I would consider to be competitive, because you can't effectively disrupt them, and they're much faster than you. I'm not trying to insult your deck, I really want it to work because I think Momir is a fun and potentially powerful general--but I just don't see this deck having any real power at a competitive table. I haven't even been able to beat bad casual decks in 1v1, because the mana comes so slowly and the curve of useful cards is so awkward.
Well, I'm trying to compare you to them, but I can't yet. Again, I'm going off that "competitive" comment you made. I'm not expecting this deck to beat Braids, Zur, Rofellos, etc. every game, or even 50% of games--but I'd want it to be at least capable of beating them occasionally. I really don't feel like it can right now. Think about how easy it is for Braids, for example, to beat you...I bet that a Braids player on the play could just go Swamp, Swamp, Swamp, Swamp, Braids, and still beat you most of the time...and that's a ridiculously bad hand for Braids, who will much more often hit the table on turn 2 or 3. You just don't have any outs.
Edit: Also, you say 38 lands is enough. I somewhat disagree. It can be enough, but I think you need several more artifact acceleration cards to manage 38. However, you're not even really running 38--you're including Maze of Ith (which messed me up in a few duels) and Gaea's Cradle. Maze of Ith is never mana, and Gaea's Cradle usually doesn't make mana in the early game unless you're very lucky or have at least 2-3 other lands. Therefore, your effective land count is only 36, with 3 mana artifacts. This is definitely too low. For a comparison, I have a very tuned, very successful Sharuum list that runs 36 lands--but I also run basically every good artifact accelerant ever printed. I have 13 of them. I also have badass lands like Ancient Tomb, Mishra's Workshop, and Tolarian Academy that do the work of at least two other lands, and I have 2 more of the Ravicna bouncelands than you (which are typically like 2 lands). I also run a lot more card draw and tutors than you. All of that, and I still can't go comfortably go below 36 lands.
I feel quite confident in saying that you don't have nearly enough rapid mana. I think you need to go up to 38 real lands, not counting Maze of Ith and Gaea's Cradle, and you especially need to fit in more artifact accelerants to get out Momir faster, so your real game can start. The difference between playing Momir turn 5 (or 7 or 10, as I'm experiencing...) and playing him turn 3 or 4 is tremendous.
-Strip Mine
-Wasteland
-Tolarian Academy
-Survival of the Fittest
-Genesis
-Gifts Ungiven
From what you were testing...I see that your requirement for a hand to be considered playable is having 3-4 mana, otherwise 2 is too few and 5 is starting to be too many. Well, math wise, this deck has the equivalent of having 23 lands in a 60 card deck. With a probability of drawing ~2.7 lands in an opening hand. If you extend this to the topdeck, lets say after three more draws, the probability for your land count goes to ~3.8. Based on probability alone, you will have potentially 4-5 mana at your disposal by fifth turn which is when things start to come online proactively. Keep in mind there are counters and other creatures, many at 3 mana or under that can serve as disruption in the early game. I usually have no problem keeping 2-3 land hands.
Again, it seems to me that if anything the shuffler in MWS, which most of us know as notorious for either flooding or screwing is doing just that. Only 1 out of those ten hands did you get the 3 lands necessary to keep by your standards when the mathematical probability states otherwise that you should be getting on average.
Personally I don't think the Fetch lands are all that great here. My reasoning being that the deck is on the verge of being low on lands already in your opinion and you are thinning it moreso by pulling lands out of it, decreasing your probability to draw one subsequently. If anything, the best lands to try here are the original Karoos, Coral Atoll and Jungle Basin, along with the Growth Chamber. Reason being that these do double duty. They produce 1U and 1G respectively to be used with Cloud of Faeries/Palinchron and they essentially turn a 2 land hand into a 3 land hand, provided you have an island/forest. Then again, I'm not sure having lands with a requirement are that great here either. True I may want to try to squeeze a couple more lands in as I used to have it at 40, Maze and Cradle aside.
What artifact accelerants are you referring to? I can see Grim Monolith, maybe. Gilded Lotus doesn't help much since it is so expensive to cast to begin with. Darksteel Ingot, Coldsteel heart, Mind Stone, and Prismatic Lens are ok. Other than that I am not in 3 colors so multiple Signets or even the Mirrodin Talismans are not within my spectrum.
I'll have to peruse my decklist to see if there is anything blatantly cuttable, but the list is extraordinarily tight even now, and like you said, I don't want to dip below ~40 creatures for fear the deck really wouldn't function. I think having 43 mana sources is ideally where it should be at, whether Lands, Artifacts, Creatures, etc. (as long as they are 3 mana or less) So far I have 35 reliable lands (I excluded Tolaria West as well) + 2 creatures + 3 artifacts = 40. So I would need 3 more to shore it up. Grim Monolith, Mind Stone, Prismatic Lens perhaps. I am also testing out, despite my inital resistance, both Farhaven Elf and Yavimaya Elder along with Mana Reflection. The cuts to accomodate these changes were: Elvish Visionary, Vigor, and Fable of Wolf and Owl
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I think your stated curve (3.8, or whatever it was) is very misleading, because a lot of your cheapest spells are actually terrible in the early game. Plaxmanta, Gilded Drake, Eternal Witness, Caller of the Claw...the list goes on. These are all lowering your average mana cost, but that doesn't say anything about your curve, because you're never going to be playing these as soon as you can. Rawdogging out a Caller of the Claw on turn 3 isn't going to win you any games. They may be in your opening hand, but that doesn't mean you have any action.
I think I'd go with Grim Monolith, Coldsteel Heart, and Darksteel Ingot for your artifact mana. You can use the colorfixing. Mana Vault might also be a good option.
43 mana sources still seems a little low to me--this deck really does have a high curve, and it can't afford to miss land drops before the 5th. I like the fetchlands mostly because they're excellent colorfixing. The slight thinning just means you can run a couple more lands than you usually would, which is really a good thing; it helps you make those drops on time. 35 lands is low for any deck in EDH, and this deck seems to need more than most decks, not less.
Your proposed cuts look good. I'm not convinced of the need for Mana Reflection--I think that once you make it to 6 mana, you're pretty much okay. The trouble is getting there.
As far as other possible cuts, I would take a look at these:
Kederekt Leviathan
Caller of the Claw
Pestermite
Plaxcaster Frogling
Those seem like the weakest cards to me, though I may be missing something for some of them. The Leviathan is ponderously expensive and I'm not sure you really need the effect, or make enough mana to take advantage of it. I guess it's good if you go infinite, but I don't know how often that happens. Caller of the Claw seems bad in this format. The bears are rarely going to be very relevant. If you've got 3 mana open, wouldn't you rather counter the wrath, than play this? I can think of absolutely no situation where I'd want this over a counterspell, so it shouldn't be here. Pestermite just seems boring. Why do you need a twiddle? I guess you can go infinite with this, but it's redundant with Cloud of Faeries. Plaxmanta Frogling sits at a really awkward place on the curve. You need to play it before Momir for it to protect Momir...but then it slows Momir down 2 turns if you actually want to protect it, because you have to keep 2 mana open. You'll never want to do that, so I don't see much use for this guy.
Also, Wasteland and Genesis are totally not bannable, and are really healthy cards for this format. Neither one is really broken or abusable, and Genesis is ridiculously easy to answer--any graveyard hate at all deals with it, and everyone should be running graveyard hate anyway. You should have a talk with your playgroup about these two, at least. I'm actually a big proponent of banning cards that are bad for the format (Gifts Ungiven should ABSOLUTELY be banned), but Genesis is just taking it too far.
My argument against the fetch lands is because I only have the two duals, otherwise I am limited to grabbing a forest or island respectively. Unlike Sharuum where you have six duals along with 2 on-color fetchlands that can grab 1 of 2 relevant options.
Keep in mind to the 43 mana sources stated that there are 4 fetch mechanics built into STE, Yavimaya Elder, Farhaven Elf, and Jens. I think this should be sufficient.
The thing that I like about mana reflection on the surface is that it just makes everything a whole lot easier. Mana Reflection + Palinchron = gg in most cases if you have any sort of board position. Testing will tell, I haven't even tried a match with it yet.
Oh and believe me I hate the banlist too. I think some of the cards affected were banned blindly without any regard for their disruptability. Genesis especially.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I don't agree with your argument against the fetchlands. If they're not usable for colorfixing, that means that you already have Tropical Island and Breeding Pool. If you have those, you really don't need colorfixing anymore. At that point, they're fine getting a Forest or Island. You're unlikely to need to pop them for anything else. It's not like a Forest is going to help you more than Wooded Foothills in that situation--there's really no downside.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary