As anyone who has played legacy or even extended last season can tell you, Ichorid is a force to be reckoned with. With versatility, reliability, and consistent top8s, it's no question that Ichorid is a sound choice for a competitive legacy tourney-goer. As such, this thread is here for all of us to discuss new strategies, card choices, and tournament results.
One thing I think I should mention before ANYTHING else is what Ichorid is and isn't good at, most notably with regards to hate. For those who aren't aware, graveyard hate is present in almost 100% of all sideboards. I will go into how to sideboard later on. Being present in a lot of sideboards means that with Ichorid, as you want to dump your entire library into your graveyard as fast as possible, you will be dumping all of your win conditions- and when facing down a Leyline or a Crypt, it becomes very difficult to win. Therefore, the best thing you can do when playing dredge is to know your meta well. This is not a good deck to take to an unknown meta, because as I said, graveyard hate is everywhere, and especially if people are packing a lot of sideboard slots full of Relic of Progenitus...es, you won't be placing very highly. However, a lot of metas are very much full of aggro (Rock, Aggro Loam, though Loam is victim to graveyard hate), or combo that doesn't rely on the 'yard (Ad Nauseam, TES, etc.), or control (a la stax or MBC), none of which really rely on the graveyard, and thus people won't be packing hate for you. Which is good. Because the best thing for Ichorid is an unprepared meta. HOWEVER, this may seem very terrible- it's not. The ability to play around/ through this hate is ALWAYS available, and a skilled Ichorid player will be able to win despite whatever an opponent may throw at them! At any rate, let's get to a 1st place deck with more than 30 participants playing:
Obviously, we have the dredgers, the core of this deck. Golgari Grave-Troll gets 6 off the top, Stinkweed Imp gets 5, and Golgari Thug gets 4. The deck cannot run effectively, or really at all, without these cards. Thug is seen in various numbers, but I like three.
Ichorid: The deck's namesake. Run four of them. They eat Putrid Imps in the graveyard and come back to either swing for three, or be sacrificed to one of the flashback cards in the deck. You should be trying to bring back an Ichorid at almost every opportunity (Notable exceptions being when the only cards that dredge in your graveyard are also the only things you can feed to Ichorids).
Narcomoeba: This is why dredging is so important. This guy's a free 1/1 flier at worst, and able to be sacrificed to net you up to four Zombies and make them discard or bring something horrible out of your graveyard at best. Seems like a good inclusion to me!
Putrid Imp: This guy may be Legacy's MVP. Not only does he come down on turn one, but on that very same turn you can dump your entire hand for the low low cost of granting the little guy flying! When you return dredgers to your hand, this guy is there to help you put them back in the dead zone where they belong.
Eternal Witness: This card slot can be changed around to suit your needs. I've played around with Cephalid Sage, Sundering Titan, Angel of Despair, hell, you could put a Bogardan Hellkite in this slot if you run enough Dread Returns. A new choice could either be Empyrial Archangel (If your meta is aggressive or full of burnination, previously Simic Sky Swallower, another huge shrouded flying thing with trample. It's all your call, really) or Hellkite Overlord (if speed is important or you just want to beat down with a huge hasty dragon- especially good because it has haste on its own and can beat down without Flame-Kin Zealot being necessary). Eternal Witness is a good choice if you want to be able to recur things like Cephalid Coliseum or LED.
Flame-Kin Zealot: This card takes what would be graveyard aggro and makes it able to become combo all at the same time. Seen in singletons or two-ofs, this guy is amazing at making ten 2/2 zombie tokens into 33 hasty damage (including himself). Dread return this guy when you begin to combo out.
On to spells- Breakthrough: This guy allows you to dump your hand and four other cards on turn one, or lets you do that and keep one or two other cards, depending on how much mana you can afford to spend. This spell is an auto-include in all lists, because hell, it dumps 9 or 10 other cards into the yard (The land you played, the Breakthrough, dumping the 5 or 6 remaining cards in your hand, as well as 4 you just drew off of it).
Cabal Therapy and Unmask: Unmask is relatively new to the build, but it's been the standard ever since it caught on. Turn one discard for FREE is amazing. Who cares about the other black card if you just prevented your opponent from having a Force of Will or whatnot. Cabal Therapy, however, is an almost entirely different animal. If you can't guess what your opponent is playing, name Force of Will. Since you're probably comboing off anyways, you'll at least get to see what's in their hand. Not only does it bust hands full of counterspells wide open, but it comes at the good, good cost of one creature. And because you're dumping a creature in the yard, odds are you're also getting somewhere between one and four Zombies, too. And that's always good.
Dread Return: The list above only runs two, but you can also choose to run three (my preferred number) or even four of these guys. They are what makes this deck tick. You Dread Return ONLY when it's clear that your opponent has no responses (Oh hey! You run Cabal Therapy as a four-of! Good job!). But when it resolves, it spells "I win". Dig up a Zealot for the win! Dig up a Witness or Cephalid Sage for more dredging action until you can dig up a Zealot and win! Dig up a huge monstrosity of some sort! I don't care, because when you do it, you also sacrifice three creatures, and you know what that means- three to twelve 2/2s.
Bridge from Below: The hands down best card in the deck. So long as you can get some past the guy playing goblins and the ever so versatile (but a huge pain for you) Mogg Fanatic, you will be making an undead army in no time.
Deep Analysis, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Cephalid Coliseum: I figured I'd mention these three together, because when all three of these are in your opening hand with a bunch of dredgers, you win. That's all there is to it. Play Lion's Eye Diamond first (to get past counters, players who see Cephalid Coliseum before LED will counter the LED, leaving you worse off), play Cephalid Coliseum, sac LED and dump your hand, giving you three blue mana, use two and three life to draw two off of Deep Analysis, Dredging up to 12 cards, thus giving you threshold, and you can then use the last blue mana to draw three and discard three off of Coliseum, and you can breathe now that this horrible run-on sentence is over and you won your game. Individually, these three are all good in the deck. Together, they are insane.
Remaining Manabase: Think anywhere from the Underground Sea route to the above "4 City of Brass and 4Gemstone Mine" manabase. I actually like the City and Mine route because I never have mana restrictions that way, and as my life total is completely irrelevant, I see no reason that these two can't be perfectly viable, especially in a deck that has no long run plan.
One card seen in other builds is Careful Study, a very nice way to dredge stuff and then put it right back in your yard. Typically run as a three of in place of the Unmask Slot, this can give you more speed with less control aspects. It's all your call, but having to make a choice, I'd stick with Unmask.
Another card that could be acceptable is River Kelpie, which has made it into a few vintage lists. It turns your library into your graveyard in no time flat. However, I've felt that Kelpie can sometimes be TOO stong of a card draw strategy, and you don't want to deck yourself. If you feel that you want to be conservative or that you can reduce your opponent to ruin before it happens, then by all means play this sucker. It's dredge's best friend if you can get it out early.
Sideboard Choices:
The deck above runs three Chain of Vapor, which, at one mana, is a very good bounce spell that can not only get rid of those pesky threats, but more importantly can bounce a Leyline, allowing you to piece together victory before they have a chance to recast it. HOWEVER, the sideboard above does not run all the answers to Leyline, and I feel that four Chain of Vapor is a better choice, as well as something like Ray of Revelation. This is an all around solid choice for most, if not all, metagames. Board out any four or five cards.
Also featured is the almighty Firestorm, which is essentially a replacement for Darkblast in that it not only hits creatures that have more than one toughness, but can also dump your hand and, most importantly, hit multiple creatures for quite a bit. If you play in a meta with aggro like elves or goblins, this is a must-have. Board out your Unmasks for them.
Unmask is played as a one-of if combo is prevalent, or if you just feel that you need extra discard against strong control. Typically a good choice. Chalice of the Void- a three or four-of. It kills a lot of strategies when played for one, but that also ruins your Cabal Therapies- and costs mana. So the typical choice is to play it for zero. If you are planning to be facing Tormod's Crypt (you probably will) or Engineered Explosives (which are quite prevalent, and when set to 0 they kill all your zombies) it's prevalent that you board these in and board out your LEDs. More on the strategies later. Pithing Needle is good against any deck that plays anything other than mana abilities. Running them in your sideboard is always a good choice.
Other sideboard strategies include running your own playset of Leyline of the Void, as it not only ruins anything else that relies on the graveyard (Loam, the mirror match), but it protects your Bridges. When your opponent sacs a mogg fanatic in response to your trigger, you just lost a whole lot of zombies, which does not bode well for you. Leylines prevent this. Ancient Grudge/Ray of Revelation: Flash these back for one to ruin strategies relying on artifacts or enchantments. Sickening Shoal: Against the creature strategy, also helps against Yixlid Jailers, which shut down Bridges, Ichorids, and Flashback. Wispmare: Another one mana permanent solution to Leyline or other pesky enchantments that, unlike Ray of Revelation, does not rely on the graveyard. If you plan on seeing a lot of these enchantment dealies, then put these in as a two of or so in addition to your other anti-hate. It also hits Propaganda and Engineered Plague, both annoying enchantments
Now, on to basic strategy and then sideboard strategy:
Ichorid is very, very cool in that it can run as either an aggro strategy with a lot of synergy with Bridge from Below, or a combo strategy mentioned above with LED and the like. Keepable hands always include a land and one of the following: LED, Breakthrough, or Putrid Imp, as well as a load of dredgers. So long as you have a means to get your hand in the graveyard, you will be on the fast track to victory. The best way to learn more about the deck is to simply play it, sometimes trying to "goldfish" by yourself if you feel that the combo effort is very important, or playing against people using the aggro strategy, beating with Ichorids, Narcomoebas, and Zombies to win. Other notable... notes include reminding you that Cabal Therapy should be used before any type of other spell is played from the graveyard if possible. You don't want your Dread Return to eat a Force of Will, as you lose half of what makes it go go. The same is true for Deep Analysis- you just lost three life and spent two valuable mana.. and didn't even get to dredge. And that no esta bueno. Other basic notes that should probably go without saying but I feel I should mention anyways: ALWAYS check your graveyard EVERY TURN. If you can get an Ichorid into play without hindering your strategy, DO SO. DREDGE WHEN YOU CAN. Drawing cards after the first turn is typically a bad strategy barring facing down a Leyline or Crypt, in which case you want to draw an answer such as PNeedle or Chain of Vapor. Then go straight back to dredging.
On to sideboarding strategies:
Based on your sideboard, you have to know your meta already. If you don't, it's very hard to know what you're playing in the board, but here's some basic information: If you're boarding in a lot of stuff, it's best to board out your combo intiative. If you board in your four Chalice, you'll be boarding out your LEDs, and you can also therefore afford to remove your Deep Analysis as well, freeing up two slots for whatever, let's say Pithing Needle, which is also effective against Tormod's Crypt, or Chain of Vapor, which is good against... everything else. This effectively transforms your deck into a pure aggro/synergy deck, and you should treat it as such. However, as a rule of thumb, there are some things you should NEVER board out. Never board out your dredgers, therapies, breakthroughs, bridges, or Putrid Imp. That leaves Dread Return and the like- you CAN board those out if you want to bring in a whole crapload of stuff, and your deck won't be terrible because of it. Sure, you'll lose a good sac outlet, but if you're facing a whole ton of hate, then freeing up a minimum of four slots (2 Dreads, Zealot, and viable slot, in this case witness) is good if you want to bring in just about everything. You can also easily board out Unmasks if they seemed unhelpful in the first game, freeing up some slots for Chain of Vapor or whatnot. You can effectively learn how to sideboard only by playing to see what strategies work and what don't for you.
Hey mate just letting you know there is already a stickied ichorid thread
as for your list, i would consider a few small changes, in place of say 2-3 golgari thug (2 maybe) id put in 2 darkblast, to kill gay gay gay yixlid jailers, gaddock teegs and other pests (STE, fanatic)
Also, cephalid sage > eternal witness in most cases. You also want to be confidant you get a dread return to be able to reanimate in case of counters etc, so i would prolly -1 ichorid, +1 dread return
If you were looking for fat reanimation targets (i read your creature choice selections), i find that red akroma (angel of fury) seems to be pretty painful in my meta, getting past stp+bounce
Why would you want a "surprise effect" in game 1? Game 1 is supposed to be an auto-win for Ichorid against most of the field. The only decks with a good shot at beating Ichorid game 1 is storm combo. And those big secondary Dread return targets don't help the combo matchup.
Also, does anyone know why the decklist has some links missing for cards?
yeah, that usually happens when you copy a deck list over from Microsoft word to MTGS. What you do to fix that, is basically delete the "enter" space between the two lines of text, and then re-enter it. That should allow you to make the text auto-link again.
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I havn't played ichorid a ton, mostly using it for testing against my other decks, but I like SB 1 of Empyrial Archangel. If you know they will be able to take out your bridges, I think the archgangel is the best alt win con. It's much better then Sky Swallower. To deal the full 20 it takes the same amount of time. I'll admit that most of the time your dealing less... but Archangel is still better. It provides a pretty decent clock, same if their at 19-20 or 15-13 etc. When you reanimate those guys, your either winning or losing (well obviously). If your winning, it shouldn't matter. Their big fat shroud guys. If your losing Empyrial Archangel can stall for the win.
Of course that's only vs the Sky Swallower. I like the Archangel over Akroma becuase the extra turn, rarely two, I don't think is even as big as the shroud. Simply too many people run Swords and etc.I started out with Akroma, and got her Swords and Vindicated and etc too much. Red Akroma is interesting, havn't tested her but seems weak. Angel of Despair is utility, but tbh if most of the troublesome permanents would have prevented you from doing the reanimation in the first place. Though I'd love to hear why other's are better than archangel. Be good to hear.
That's assuming you run alt win cons. I would at least SB. I've been caught by suprise (stupidity on my part) by a sudden reanimated Fattie, and lost as the result
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
beautiful primer glurman! is Life from the Loam not utilized anymore? I've fooled around with Ichorid a year back and ran 1x LftL. Bad call/outdated?
Ichorid can easily live on just a few lands, so LftL seems kinda redundant. I would rather put something in that can dredge more cards (ie Golgari Thug) or something that would be ridiculous in the grave like a powerful reanimator target.
About the sideboard - Only three chain of vapor seems dangerous to me. Wouldn't a full four of those and only three chalice be better? I suppose it depends on prevalence of storm in the area.
Ichorid can easily live on just a few lands, so LftL seems kinda redundant. I would rather put something in that can dredge more cards (ie Golgari Thug) or something that would be ridiculous in the grave like a powerful reanimator target.
Doesn't wasteland eat you?
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Wasteland can be annoying, but it does not ruin the deck; not even close. You only really need one land during your turn to get the dredgers into your graveyard and this deck can easily live on no lands at all considering the stuff it utilizes does not require mana (LED, Dredging, Ichorids, Dread Return, Therapy Flashback, Bridge tokens, milling off Narcomoebas). While it IS nice to have lands to do stuff like pop a Coliseum or use a Chain of Vapor or something like that, you can still live on no land.
I have sleeved up a deck list very similar to the 1st post. The question I have is "How to sideboard?"
I know the first thread had some pointers on how to sideboard, but I have a few specific questions.
Q1: In game 1, you didn't see any Main Deck graveyard hate. In game 2, you are not sure what kind of graveyard hate the opponent is going to SB in. It can be any of the following:
Artifact
a) Tormod's Crypt
b) Relic of Progenitus
c) Engineered Explosives on 0 (but your other creatures can still beat thru) Black Only
d) Extirpate (some people in my meta play this)
e) Leyline of the Void
f) Yixild Jailer Others
g) Some form of sac outlet (e.g. Mogg Fanatic) to clear your bridges
What is your general sideboarding strategies at this point of time, given that you are not sure what they are bringing in? I would guess +1 Unmask will be useful in most cases to actively try to get their hate. 4 Pithing needles are generally good versus whatever the opponent brings in. So, my suggestion will be to +1 Unmask, +4 Pithing Needle, -4 LED, -1 Cephalid Sage.
Q2: In game 3, once you have seen their graveyard hate, you can be more specific in your sideboarding strategies. What is your SB strategies versus each card?
(My guess at this, given my SB is 1 Unmask, 4 Needles, 4 Chain of Vapor, 3 Firestorm, 2 Wispmare, 1 Ray of Revelation)
Versus Blue-based control (counterspells)
+1 Unmask
+4 Pithing Needle
Versus Leyline of the Void
+4 Chain of Vapor, +2 Wispmare
Versus Yixild Jailer, Mirror (clear their zombie tokens!)
+3 Firestorm
Versus Stax (with Propaganda, etc)
+1 Ray of Revelation
+2 Wispmare
Stuff to board out, in priority
-4 LED
-3 Dread Return
-1 Flame Kin Zealot
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Cephalid Sage
Before I end, let me just say that all of my suggestions above are purely academic, based on reading of a few forums. I have sleeved up the deck, but yet to play it at a proper legacy tournament. I have played dredge in extended and standard though.
I'm planning to build it soon and I'm already getting some of the cards needed for it. The only tough card that I don't think I'll be able to get for awhile are the LEDs... are there any viable alternatives to it or are the LEDs absolutely necessary?
LEDs speed up the deck so much because of a turn 1 discard that is free... I would say they are quite important to keeping the deck being fast because Ichorid relies a lot on its blinding speed.
It's there to act like a combo engine. If you don't like that, or LED, replace them with something else, like maindeck Leylines and Chalices or something.
You deck will be slower, but more resilient.
Nah no on mystical tutor...if you really were going to have some slots for mystical tutor use careful study instead I'd suggest.
Nice Glurman YEAH going good.
The LED's are absolutely necessary and they are one of the fastest accelerators in the deck that allow it to win game 1 which ichorid should almost auto win game 1 except for mirror or stupid mogg fanatics...the other thing that can happen with the whole their sacking a creature thing I actually had someone edict themselves and kill their nantuko shade once just saying I tried to golgari grave-troll win because he can be huge as you people most well know but he topdecked a vindicate. I scooped thereafter was so unlucky...well now you know my stupid ichorid story wonder why I even say these things wow...
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Mystical Tutor isn't good in Ichorid because it slows the deck down, and Ichorid relies on speed to just plain overwhelm your opponent. If you want a way to increase your chances of getting a discard spell to get rid of dredgers just use Careful Study instead of MT.
4 Imps, 4 Breakthrough, and 4 LED already give you a consisent way to dump your hand already. I guess if you want more consistency, Careful Study is there.
I've just started playing ichorid recently and have a suggestion (probably stupid) how about running demigod of revenge? you get a few in the yard, dread return one, and you have all of them in play? probably isn't needed though
Sorry, it doesn't work. Demigod of Revenge triggers upon being played, not coming into play. Plus you can't waste that many deck slots even if it did work like that.
Extirpate hurts you but there are 3 different dredgers you can dredge and they'll obviously remove the grave-troll first stinkweed second thug 3rd but they can't completely wreck you with it. The card that completely wrecks ichorid would be haunting echoes if you fizzle when you combo off and next turn they deck you with it basically.
P.S.- There is no answer to them playing extirpate because it can't be countered or responded to
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One thing I think I should mention before ANYTHING else is what Ichorid is and isn't good at, most notably with regards to hate. For those who aren't aware, graveyard hate is present in almost 100% of all sideboards. I will go into how to sideboard later on. Being present in a lot of sideboards means that with Ichorid, as you want to dump your entire library into your graveyard as fast as possible, you will be dumping all of your win conditions- and when facing down a Leyline or a Crypt, it becomes very difficult to win. Therefore, the best thing you can do when playing dredge is to know your meta well. This is not a good deck to take to an unknown meta, because as I said, graveyard hate is everywhere, and especially if people are packing a lot of sideboard slots full of Relic of Progenitus...es, you won't be placing very highly. However, a lot of metas are very much full of aggro (Rock, Aggro Loam, though Loam is victim to graveyard hate), or combo that doesn't rely on the 'yard (Ad Nauseam, TES, etc.), or control (a la stax or MBC), none of which really rely on the graveyard, and thus people won't be packing hate for you. Which is good. Because the best thing for Ichorid is an unprepared meta. HOWEVER, this may seem very terrible- it's not. The ability to play around/ through this hate is ALWAYS available, and a skilled Ichorid player will be able to win despite whatever an opponent may throw at them! At any rate, let's get to a 1st place deck with more than 30 participants playing:
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
3 Unmask
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
1 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
Obviously, we have the dredgers, the core of this deck. Golgari Grave-Troll gets 6 off the top, Stinkweed Imp gets 5, and Golgari Thug gets 4. The deck cannot run effectively, or really at all, without these cards. Thug is seen in various numbers, but I like three.
Ichorid: The deck's namesake. Run four of them. They eat Putrid Imps in the graveyard and come back to either swing for three, or be sacrificed to one of the flashback cards in the deck. You should be trying to bring back an Ichorid at almost every opportunity (Notable exceptions being when the only cards that dredge in your graveyard are also the only things you can feed to Ichorids).
Narcomoeba: This is why dredging is so important. This guy's a free 1/1 flier at worst, and able to be sacrificed to net you up to four Zombies and make them discard or bring something horrible out of your graveyard at best. Seems like a good inclusion to me!
Putrid Imp: This guy may be Legacy's MVP. Not only does he come down on turn one, but on that very same turn you can dump your entire hand for the low low cost of granting the little guy flying! When you return dredgers to your hand, this guy is there to help you put them back in the dead zone where they belong.
Eternal Witness: This card slot can be changed around to suit your needs. I've played around with Cephalid Sage, Sundering Titan, Angel of Despair, hell, you could put a Bogardan Hellkite in this slot if you run enough Dread Returns. A new choice could either be Empyrial Archangel (If your meta is aggressive or full of burnination, previously Simic Sky Swallower, another huge shrouded flying thing with trample. It's all your call, really) or Hellkite Overlord (if speed is important or you just want to beat down with a huge hasty dragon- especially good because it has haste on its own and can beat down without Flame-Kin Zealot being necessary). Eternal Witness is a good choice if you want to be able to recur things like Cephalid Coliseum or LED.
Flame-Kin Zealot: This card takes what would be graveyard aggro and makes it able to become combo all at the same time. Seen in singletons or two-ofs, this guy is amazing at making ten 2/2 zombie tokens into 33 hasty damage (including himself). Dread return this guy when you begin to combo out.
On to spells- Breakthrough: This guy allows you to dump your hand and four other cards on turn one, or lets you do that and keep one or two other cards, depending on how much mana you can afford to spend. This spell is an auto-include in all lists, because hell, it dumps 9 or 10 other cards into the yard (The land you played, the Breakthrough, dumping the 5 or 6 remaining cards in your hand, as well as 4 you just drew off of it).
Cabal Therapy and Unmask: Unmask is relatively new to the build, but it's been the standard ever since it caught on. Turn one discard for FREE is amazing. Who cares about the other black card if you just prevented your opponent from having a Force of Will or whatnot. Cabal Therapy, however, is an almost entirely different animal. If you can't guess what your opponent is playing, name Force of Will. Since you're probably comboing off anyways, you'll at least get to see what's in their hand. Not only does it bust hands full of counterspells wide open, but it comes at the good, good cost of one creature. And because you're dumping a creature in the yard, odds are you're also getting somewhere between one and four Zombies, too. And that's always good.
Dread Return: The list above only runs two, but you can also choose to run three (my preferred number) or even four of these guys. They are what makes this deck tick. You Dread Return ONLY when it's clear that your opponent has no responses (Oh hey! You run Cabal Therapy as a four-of! Good job!). But when it resolves, it spells "I win". Dig up a Zealot for the win! Dig up a Witness or Cephalid Sage for more dredging action until you can dig up a Zealot and win! Dig up a huge monstrosity of some sort! I don't care, because when you do it, you also sacrifice three creatures, and you know what that means- three to twelve 2/2s.
Bridge from Below: The hands down best card in the deck. So long as you can get some past the guy playing goblins and the ever so versatile (but a huge pain for you) Mogg Fanatic, you will be making an undead army in no time.
Deep Analysis, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Cephalid Coliseum: I figured I'd mention these three together, because when all three of these are in your opening hand with a bunch of dredgers, you win. That's all there is to it. Play Lion's Eye Diamond first (to get past counters, players who see Cephalid Coliseum before LED will counter the LED, leaving you worse off), play Cephalid Coliseum, sac LED and dump your hand, giving you three blue mana, use two and three life to draw two off of Deep Analysis, Dredging up to 12 cards, thus giving you threshold, and you can then use the last blue mana to draw three and discard three off of Coliseum, and you can breathe now that this horrible run-on sentence is over and you won your game. Individually, these three are all good in the deck. Together, they are insane.
Remaining Manabase: Think anywhere from the Underground Sea route to the above "4 City of Brass and 4Gemstone Mine" manabase. I actually like the City and Mine route because I never have mana restrictions that way, and as my life total is completely irrelevant, I see no reason that these two can't be perfectly viable, especially in a deck that has no long run plan.
One card seen in other builds is Careful Study, a very nice way to dredge stuff and then put it right back in your yard. Typically run as a three of in place of the Unmask Slot, this can give you more speed with less control aspects. It's all your call, but having to make a choice, I'd stick with Unmask.
Another card that could be acceptable is River Kelpie, which has made it into a few vintage lists. It turns your library into your graveyard in no time flat. However, I've felt that Kelpie can sometimes be TOO stong of a card draw strategy, and you don't want to deck yourself. If you feel that you want to be conservative or that you can reduce your opponent to ruin before it happens, then by all means play this sucker. It's dredge's best friend if you can get it out early.
Sideboard Choices:
The deck above runs three Chain of Vapor, which, at one mana, is a very good bounce spell that can not only get rid of those pesky threats, but more importantly can bounce a Leyline, allowing you to piece together victory before they have a chance to recast it. HOWEVER, the sideboard above does not run all the answers to Leyline, and I feel that four Chain of Vapor is a better choice, as well as something like Ray of Revelation. This is an all around solid choice for most, if not all, metagames. Board out any four or five cards.
Also featured is the almighty Firestorm, which is essentially a replacement for Darkblast in that it not only hits creatures that have more than one toughness, but can also dump your hand and, most importantly, hit multiple creatures for quite a bit. If you play in a meta with aggro like elves or goblins, this is a must-have. Board out your Unmasks for them.
Unmask is played as a one-of if combo is prevalent, or if you just feel that you need extra discard against strong control. Typically a good choice.
Chalice of the Void- a three or four-of. It kills a lot of strategies when played for one, but that also ruins your Cabal Therapies- and costs mana. So the typical choice is to play it for zero. If you are planning to be facing Tormod's Crypt (you probably will) or Engineered Explosives (which are quite prevalent, and when set to 0 they kill all your zombies) it's prevalent that you board these in and board out your LEDs. More on the strategies later.
Pithing Needle is good against any deck that plays anything other than mana abilities. Running them in your sideboard is always a good choice.
Other sideboard strategies include running your own playset of Leyline of the Void, as it not only ruins anything else that relies on the graveyard (Loam, the mirror match), but it protects your Bridges. When your opponent sacs a mogg fanatic in response to your trigger, you just lost a whole lot of zombies, which does not bode well for you. Leylines prevent this.
Ancient Grudge/Ray of Revelation: Flash these back for one to ruin strategies relying on artifacts or enchantments.
Sickening Shoal: Against the creature strategy, also helps against Yixlid Jailers, which shut down Bridges, Ichorids, and Flashback.
Wispmare: Another one mana permanent solution to Leyline or other pesky enchantments that, unlike Ray of Revelation, does not rely on the graveyard. If you plan on seeing a lot of these enchantment dealies, then put these in as a two of or so in addition to your other anti-hate. It also hits Propaganda and Engineered Plague, both annoying enchantments
Now, on to basic strategy and then sideboard strategy:
Ichorid is very, very cool in that it can run as either an aggro strategy with a lot of synergy with Bridge from Below, or a combo strategy mentioned above with LED and the like. Keepable hands always include a land and one of the following: LED, Breakthrough, or Putrid Imp, as well as a load of dredgers. So long as you have a means to get your hand in the graveyard, you will be on the fast track to victory. The best way to learn more about the deck is to simply play it, sometimes trying to "goldfish" by yourself if you feel that the combo effort is very important, or playing against people using the aggro strategy, beating with Ichorids, Narcomoebas, and Zombies to win. Other notable... notes include reminding you that Cabal Therapy should be used before any type of other spell is played from the graveyard if possible. You don't want your Dread Return to eat a Force of Will, as you lose half of what makes it go go. The same is true for Deep Analysis- you just lost three life and spent two valuable mana.. and didn't even get to dredge. And that no esta bueno. Other basic notes that should probably go without saying but I feel I should mention anyways: ALWAYS check your graveyard EVERY TURN. If you can get an Ichorid into play without hindering your strategy, DO SO. DREDGE WHEN YOU CAN. Drawing cards after the first turn is typically a bad strategy barring facing down a Leyline or Crypt, in which case you want to draw an answer such as PNeedle or Chain of Vapor. Then go straight back to dredging.
On to sideboarding strategies:
Based on your sideboard, you have to know your meta already. If you don't, it's very hard to know what you're playing in the board, but here's some basic information: If you're boarding in a lot of stuff, it's best to board out your combo intiative. If you board in your four Chalice, you'll be boarding out your LEDs, and you can also therefore afford to remove your Deep Analysis as well, freeing up two slots for whatever, let's say Pithing Needle, which is also effective against Tormod's Crypt, or Chain of Vapor, which is good against... everything else. This effectively transforms your deck into a pure aggro/synergy deck, and you should treat it as such. However, as a rule of thumb, there are some things you should NEVER board out. Never board out your dredgers, therapies, breakthroughs, bridges, or Putrid Imp. That leaves Dread Return and the like- you CAN board those out if you want to bring in a whole crapload of stuff, and your deck won't be terrible because of it. Sure, you'll lose a good sac outlet, but if you're facing a whole ton of hate, then freeing up a minimum of four slots (2 Dreads, Zealot, and viable slot, in this case witness) is good if you want to bring in just about everything. You can also easily board out Unmasks if they seemed unhelpful in the first game, freeing up some slots for Chain of Vapor or whatnot. You can effectively learn how to sideboard only by playing to see what strategies work and what don't for you.
Finally, let's go over some matchups:
Coming Soon!
as for your list, i would consider a few small changes, in place of say 2-3 golgari thug (2 maybe) id put in 2 darkblast, to kill gay gay gay yixlid jailers, gaddock teegs and other pests (STE, fanatic)
Also, cephalid sage > eternal witness in most cases. You also want to be confidant you get a dread return to be able to reanimate in case of counters etc, so i would prolly -1 ichorid, +1 dread return
If you were looking for fat reanimation targets (i read your creature choice selections), i find that red akroma (angel of fury) seems to be pretty painful in my meta, getting past stp+bounce
Also, does anyone know why the decklist has some links missing for cards?
yeah, that usually happens when you copy a deck list over from Microsoft word to MTGS. What you do to fix that, is basically delete the "enter" space between the two lines of text, and then re-enter it. That should allow you to make the text auto-link again.
I havn't played ichorid a ton, mostly using it for testing against my other decks, but I like SB 1 of Empyrial Archangel. If you know they will be able to take out your bridges, I think the archgangel is the best alt win con. It's much better then Sky Swallower. To deal the full 20 it takes the same amount of time. I'll admit that most of the time your dealing less... but Archangel is still better. It provides a pretty decent clock, same if their at 19-20 or 15-13 etc. When you reanimate those guys, your either winning or losing (well obviously). If your winning, it shouldn't matter. Their big fat shroud guys. If your losing Empyrial Archangel can stall for the win.
Of course that's only vs the Sky Swallower. I like the Archangel over Akroma becuase the extra turn, rarely two, I don't think is even as big as the shroud. Simply too many people run Swords and etc.I started out with Akroma, and got her Swords and Vindicated and etc too much. Red Akroma is interesting, havn't tested her but seems weak. Angel of Despair is utility, but tbh if most of the troublesome permanents would have prevented you from doing the reanimation in the first place. Though I'd love to hear why other's are better than archangel. Be good to hear.
That's assuming you run alt win cons. I would at least SB. I've been caught by suprise (stupidity on my part) by a sudden reanimated Fattie, and lost as the result
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!
Also remember that recurring Ichorid is not mandatory. Don't bring him back unless you need to.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Ichorid can easily live on just a few lands, so LftL seems kinda redundant. I would rather put something in that can dredge more cards (ie Golgari Thug) or something that would be ridiculous in the grave like a powerful reanimator target.
Doesn't wasteland eat you?
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Wasteland can be annoying, but it does not ruin the deck; not even close. You only really need one land during your turn to get the dredgers into your graveyard and this deck can easily live on no lands at all considering the stuff it utilizes does not require mana (LED, Dredging, Ichorids, Dread Return, Therapy Flashback, Bridge tokens, milling off Narcomoebas). While it IS nice to have lands to do stuff like pop a Coliseum or use a Chain of Vapor or something like that, you can still live on no land.
I know the first thread had some pointers on how to sideboard, but I have a few specific questions.
Q1: In game 1, you didn't see any Main Deck graveyard hate. In game 2, you are not sure what kind of graveyard hate the opponent is going to SB in. It can be any of the following:
Artifact
a) Tormod's Crypt
b) Relic of Progenitus
c) Engineered Explosives on 0 (but your other creatures can still beat thru)
Black Only
d) Extirpate (some people in my meta play this)
e) Leyline of the Void
f) Yixild Jailer
Others
g) Some form of sac outlet (e.g. Mogg Fanatic) to clear your bridges
What is your general sideboarding strategies at this point of time, given that you are not sure what they are bringing in? I would guess +1 Unmask will be useful in most cases to actively try to get their hate. 4 Pithing needles are generally good versus whatever the opponent brings in. So, my suggestion will be to +1 Unmask, +4 Pithing Needle, -4 LED, -1 Cephalid Sage.
Q2: In game 3, once you have seen their graveyard hate, you can be more specific in your sideboarding strategies. What is your SB strategies versus each card?
(My guess at this, given my SB is 1 Unmask, 4 Needles, 4 Chain of Vapor, 3 Firestorm, 2 Wispmare, 1 Ray of Revelation)
Versus Blue-based control (counterspells)
+1 Unmask
+4 Pithing Needle
Versus Leyline of the Void
+4 Chain of Vapor, +2 Wispmare
Versus Yixild Jailer, Mirror (clear their zombie tokens!)
+3 Firestorm
Versus Stax (with Propaganda, etc)
+1 Ray of Revelation
+2 Wispmare
Stuff to board out, in priority
-4 LED
-3 Dread Return
-1 Flame Kin Zealot
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Cephalid Sage
Before I end, let me just say that all of my suggestions above are purely academic, based on reading of a few forums. I have sleeved up the deck, but yet to play it at a proper legacy tournament. I have played dredge in extended and standard though.
If you can't get LED... maybe One with Nothing?
Wow, I can't believe I recommended that card... but that's what LED is for. It's basically a free One with Nothing.
I think without LEDs you can make a decent Ichorid deck (some even say it's better because it's more consistent) but I much prefer the LED-version.
Here's a sample decklist.
You deck will be slower, but more resilient.
Nice Glurman YEAH going good.
The LED's are absolutely necessary and they are one of the fastest accelerators in the deck that allow it to win game 1 which ichorid should almost auto win game 1 except for mirror or stupid mogg fanatics...the other thing that can happen with the whole their sacking a creature thing I actually had someone edict themselves and kill their nantuko shade once just saying I tried to golgari grave-troll win because he can be huge as you people most well know but he topdecked a vindicate. I scooped thereafter was so unlucky...well now you know my stupid ichorid story wonder why I even say these things wow...
Currently Playing:
Retired
4 Imps, 4 Breakthrough, and 4 LED already give you a consisent way to dump your hand already. I guess if you want more consistency, Careful Study is there.
P.S.- There is no answer to them playing extirpate because it can't be countered or responded to
Currently Playing:
Retired