Hey guys. Two of my buddies each have cubes, and since neither of their cubes can support a combo archetype well, I was wondering what sort of "combo package" you guys run to support such an archetype. What cards do you include, and what type of combo decks do you run? Ideal? Storm?
How large is their cube?
The way I see it, combos are just very linear themes in the cube, as you will want to include them in high numbers to be draftable, and not entirely parasitic so that they can be more reliable. Many cubes out there include themes of different kinds. In my cube I support reanimator, land destruction and so on.
Another way to support combos is to play more open-ended cards that can be used in more than one combo and add them all to a deck, increasing your chances. Squee is awesome with many discard outlets, Sneak Attack is very open-ended, Kiki-Jiki has some awesome applications and Recurring Nightmare is one of the most broken cards ever for cube. Greater Gargadon is an infinite sacrifice outlet and that's useful to many combos. Traditional cubes would include only the broad pieces which are also reasonable or more by themselves, so you can be creative and find many more which aren't.
Also, take the number of tutors and card selection way up. Given enough combos, they'll be playable. Take down the number of disruption spells - targeted discard, free/cheap counters, and any other imaginable hosers (no Rule of Law if you play storm, for example).
Storm doesn't seem easy to support because while it has a reasonable number of enables (especially with power) it has a low count of finishers and it's spread among three colors. I think a small cube can support it, but you'll have to sacrifice some of the overall powerlevel for it to happen.
In my cube i support cards for various combos:
Reanimator-decks.
Various Blink-decks.
Lockdown archetypes with Static Orb or Winter Orb combined with tap-effects. Squirrel Nest & Opposition combo. Worldgorger Dragon & Animate Dead: Haven't been used yet. But the animate dead is good enough by itself. Aluren: Haven't been used, so took it out.
If you're talking about infinite combos, my cube purposely does not include certain cards that you may have in mind like Crucible of Worlds, Tendrils of Agony, or Minds Desire. These cards would most likely never see any play. Also, cards like these are just too narrow for me to want to include... most of the time they'd end up being wasted slots in packs.
However, one infinite combo that does exist in my cube is the Recurring Nightmare + Palinchron Combo. Try these two cards with Keldon Mauraders or Wall of Blossoms.
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I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Also, cards like these are just too narrow for me to want to include... most of the time they'd end up being wasted slots in packs.
I like the idea of having very narrow picks in the packs - like three-color cards as well.
People will have maybe 30-35 playables even if there's 2-3 cards per pack that are very narrow.
If you're talking about infinite combos, my cube purposely does not include certain cards that you may have in mind like Crucible of Worlds, Tendrils of Agony, or Minds Desire. These cards would most likely never see any play. Also, cards like these are just too narrow for me to want to include... most of the time they'd end up being wasted slots in packs.
However, one infinite combo that does exist in my cube is the Recurring Nightmare + Palinchron Combo. Try these two cards with Keldon Mauraders or Wall of Blossoms.
I've found Crucible to be just good enough to justify being in the cube. Add in the fact people love the card and I don't see myself cutting it.
Constant Mists, Cycling Lands, Stripmine/Wasteland, Saclands, soon Goblin Razerunners, manlands, and I'm sure more that I'm forgetting make the Crucible worth it. But yeah the storm cards seem awful.
Tim -- Most of the support cards you mentioned there for Crucible of Worlds are not in my cube.
I only have have the 10 etch lands (mirage/onslaught) and Treetop Village.
That would make it less impressive... How have the Mirage fetches been for you? I'm considering options to replace cycling lands (which have been fine but nothing to write home about). In a cube with shocks+duals are they better or worse than shard lands in your opinion.
my cube has some Mind's Desire works in it, with moxes, lotus, wheel of fate, rituals, cheap spells like ponder, brainstorm etc. etc. Sometimes it can turn out pretty awesome.
Cycle lands to me seem too unexciting to eat up slots in the cube. Sure, they're playable, but they're pretty much last picks... this just doesn't inspire me to include them.
Mirage fetchlands on the other hand, are absolutely awesome... I highly recommend them. They can fetch your Ravnica or Revised dual lands. Very exciting.
I don't run Shard-Lands or Pain-Lands in my cube. Having too many comes-into-play-tapped lands seems like a bad idea, and the painlands are subpar compared to the other fixing. Again, keep in mind when preparing to argue with me, that I am trying to keep my cube as small as possible.
Check out the link in my signature to see the lands I currently have in my cube.
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I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
How do those who run Mind's Desire with good success support it? I would imagine some sort of cantrips, untap effects/big mana, and some other sort of storm card or big finish?
I have Time Vault + Mizzium Transreliquat as a real combo in cube and Body Double + Reveillark + Venser, Shaper Savant + sac outlet is also a cool combo, but other than that, there's no real combo in there. Sure Crucible and Strip Mine are in there somewhere and Storm is a cool mechanic, but the investment of the one big turn + being able to draft to deck .. Chances of getting that are small.
Sure Empty the Warrens is in my cube atm, since it's good even if you just play Mox, Empty the warrens, or even have mana to Lightning Bolt something first, but I don't add a Ritual, a card that's not that advantageous alone.
This means cards like Tendrils and Mind's Desire won't make it.
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Has anybody had success using the Worldgorger Dragon combo with like Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead and/or Necromancy? It seems like it could be good with X damage spells and stuff, but I haven't tried it out.
I don't really use any combos other than Channel / Fireball, Recurring Nightmare / Palinchron. Storm seems to narrow in limited to me...
Gifts Ungiven and/or other tutors to setup whatever I really need. I like to abuse the Painter/Stone auto-win as 2 of my gifts options + 2 bomb spells.
Storm is very difficult to pull off -- you really have to have the components of it around. I play with a small cube + unpowered so it's even more difficult to achieve IMO.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
hmm.. that actually works ;-) Necromancy is already in my cube, but I don't think I'll include the dragon. He's a pretty big risk if the opponent manages to kill it in response to its own trigger. That and the fact he's triple R.
Thanks for the explanation.
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I have the Worldgorger/Animate combo in my cube as mentioned before.
I've had it there for quite a while (atleast 2 years), and the combo haven't been pulled off a single time yet...
What's worth to mention is that i have a large cube of 1080 cards, and that the combo requires too many components. So it just aren't worth it.
This is an interesting point. We all know too well regular 15th picks in our limited format (Bog Hoodlums, Tortoise Formation) It's true that something has to bee 15th pick, but should we intentionally put something awful in our cube to make it always the same card(s)? If your play group always changes and you see new faces, it's nice to have some skill testers in the cube, which seems good cards and actually are not.
In my opinion, 15th pick should still be some spectacular card in cube draft. Of course there are narrow cards in every cube, which needs specific deck to work and those are usual suspects for 15th pick, if no one is on that archetype. I see Turnabout quite often going very late. I have it in because I still see combo decks being drafted from time to time and that deck needs every help it can get.
I constantly observe and ask for 13-15th picks and if they are always the same cards, I consider cutting them. It's not perfect, but still a good way to refine the cube.
I agree with all you say.
I'm a big fan of "skill tester" cards even though my playgroup doesn't really change.
That's actually one of the reasons my cube is so large.
I really like that you can't go into "I take all blue and black cards that come my way" mode, but have to think along the way.
Further more i like that cards i personally didn't think would be good, and never would play, turns out to be broken in the correct deck.
I have the Worldgorger/Animate combo in my cube as mentioned before.
I've had it there for quite a while (atleast 2 years), and the combo haven't been pulled off a single time yet...
What's worth to mention is that i have a large cube of 1080 cards, and that the combo requires too many components. So it just aren't worth it.
But some cards have to be 15'th pick right?
The combo is REALLY hard to pull off... because you need to have something to do with the infinate mana if you can't interrupt the combo. After you generate the infinate mana, you can kill with cards like Stroke of Genius, Ghitu Fire or Volcanic Geyser. The other method is to choose a different target in your graveyard after you've created the infinate mana... like Ambassador Laquatus (Mill your opponent) Shivan Hellkite (Deal Infinate Damage) or even Sliver Queen (Make Infinate Slivers)... I have all the pieces, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to pull the combo off... It almost requires Bazaar, Entomb or Buried Alive to even attrempt it.
So, most have random two-card combos and tutor effects? My friends have those (I have pulled off Recurring Nightmate+Solemn Simulacrum+Yosei), but I was really wondering if anybody supported an Early Harvest/Storm/Ideal type deck in the cube.
So, most have random two-card combos and tutor effects? My friends have those (I have pulled off Recurring Nightmate+Solemn Simulacrum+Yosei), but I was really wondering if anybody supported an Early Harvest/Storm/Ideal type deck in the cube.
Mine does. I have Early Harvest, Heartbeat of Spring, Turnabout, Regrowth, and Eternal Witness in my cube, plus at least 7 outlets for the mana.
EW and Regrowth are already excellent, and Turnabout is often used in u/w fish strategies to tap all your opponent's creatures and just win, or keep from losing like Cyptic Command. Early Harvest and Heartbeat tend to only be used in combo, but I'm ok with that.
3 weeks ago this play happened -
Guy had Heartbeat and 6 lands out. He taps all, early harvest, taps all, regrowth, taps all, Izzet Chronarch, taps all, Eternal Witness, taps all. Hey then puts Endless Scream on the Chronarch to give it 20 attack, then plays Soul's Fire. Guy has a counterspell, so then he Flings it to win.
I found this one and I didn't even know it was in my cube until it happened...
I had a W/U control deck that splashed green for Mirari's Wake to get the full benefit out of the Stroke of Genius and the Decree of Justice. I played Living Wish and grabbed a Palinchron... I then went on to make infinate mana and cycle the Decree for a billion soldiers. Sweet.
The key to adding combo is to add cards that are ok on their own and awesome with other cards.
I have Intruder Alarm in my deck. There are a couple of outlets that combine with it to go infinite, most of them in green...Llanowar Elves + Imperious Perfect + Intruder Alarm, Sprout Swarm + Intruder Alarm...It's actually one of the better combo decks.
Thanks
Mad props to Spiderboy at HighLight for the sig!
Check out my drafting vids at MTGOvideos!
The way I see it, combos are just very linear themes in the cube, as you will want to include them in high numbers to be draftable, and not entirely parasitic so that they can be more reliable. Many cubes out there include themes of different kinds. In my cube I support reanimator, land destruction and so on.
Another way to support combos is to play more open-ended cards that can be used in more than one combo and add them all to a deck, increasing your chances. Squee is awesome with many discard outlets, Sneak Attack is very open-ended, Kiki-Jiki has some awesome applications and Recurring Nightmare is one of the most broken cards ever for cube. Greater Gargadon is an infinite sacrifice outlet and that's useful to many combos. Traditional cubes would include only the broad pieces which are also reasonable or more by themselves, so you can be creative and find many more which aren't.
Also, take the number of tutors and card selection way up. Given enough combos, they'll be playable. Take down the number of disruption spells - targeted discard, free/cheap counters, and any other imaginable hosers (no Rule of Law if you play storm, for example).
Storm doesn't seem easy to support because while it has a reasonable number of enables (especially with power) it has a low count of finishers and it's spread among three colors. I think a small cube can support it, but you'll have to sacrifice some of the overall powerlevel for it to happen.
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Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Reanimator-decks.
Various Blink-decks.
Lockdown archetypes with Static Orb or Winter Orb combined with tap-effects.
Squirrel Nest & Opposition combo.
Worldgorger Dragon & Animate Dead: Haven't been used yet. But the animate dead is good enough by itself.
Aluren: Haven't been used, so took it out.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
However, one infinite combo that does exist in my cube is the Recurring Nightmare + Palinchron Combo. Try these two cards with Keldon Mauraders or Wall of Blossoms.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
I like the idea of having very narrow picks in the packs - like three-color cards as well.
People will have maybe 30-35 playables even if there's 2-3 cards per pack that are very narrow.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
I've found Crucible to be just good enough to justify being in the cube. Add in the fact people love the card and I don't see myself cutting it.
Constant Mists, Cycling Lands, Stripmine/Wasteland, Saclands, soon Goblin Razerunners, manlands, and I'm sure more that I'm forgetting make the Crucible worth it. But yeah the storm cards seem awful.
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
I only have have the 10 etch lands (mirage/onslaught) and Treetop Village.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
That would make it less impressive... How have the Mirage fetches been for you? I'm considering options to replace cycling lands (which have been fine but nothing to write home about). In a cube with shocks+duals are they better or worse than shard lands in your opinion.
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/613201-560-powered-heretics-cube-thread-wip
Mirage fetchlands on the other hand, are absolutely awesome... I highly recommend them. They can fetch your Ravnica or Revised dual lands. Very exciting.
I don't run Shard-Lands or Pain-Lands in my cube. Having too many comes-into-play-tapped lands seems like a bad idea, and the painlands are subpar compared to the other fixing. Again, keep in mind when preparing to argue with me, that I am trying to keep my cube as small as possible.
Check out the link in my signature to see the lands I currently have in my cube.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Mad props to Spiderboy at HighLight for the sig!
Check out my drafting vids at MTGOvideos!
Sure Empty the Warrens is in my cube atm, since it's good even if you just play Mox, Empty the warrens, or even have mana to Lightning Bolt something first, but I don't add a Ritual, a card that's not that advantageous alone.
This means cards like Tendrils and Mind's Desire won't make it.
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
My
540> 360 Powered CubeI don't really use any combos other than Channel / Fireball, Recurring Nightmare / Palinchron. Storm seems to narrow in limited to me...
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Storm is very difficult to pull off -- you really have to have the components of it around. I play with a small cube + unpowered so it's even more difficult to achieve IMO.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I am unfamiliar with the combo .. how does it work ?
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
My
540> 360 Powered CubeThanks for the explanation.
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
My
540> 360 Powered CubeI've had it there for quite a while (atleast 2 years), and the combo haven't been pulled off a single time yet...
What's worth to mention is that i have a large cube of 1080 cards, and that the combo requires too many components. So it just aren't worth it.
But some cards have to be 15'th pick right?
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
I agree with all you say.
I'm a big fan of "skill tester" cards even though my playgroup doesn't really change.
That's actually one of the reasons my cube is so large.
I really like that you can't go into "I take all blue and black cards that come my way" mode, but have to think along the way.
Further more i like that cards i personally didn't think would be good, and never would play, turns out to be broken in the correct deck.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
The combo is REALLY hard to pull off... because you need to have something to do with the infinate mana if you can't interrupt the combo. After you generate the infinate mana, you can kill with cards like Stroke of Genius, Ghitu Fire or Volcanic Geyser. The other method is to choose a different target in your graveyard after you've created the infinate mana... like Ambassador Laquatus (Mill your opponent) Shivan Hellkite (Deal Infinate Damage) or even Sliver Queen (Make Infinate Slivers)... I have all the pieces, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to pull the combo off... It almost requires Bazaar, Entomb or Buried Alive to even attrempt it.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Mad props to Spiderboy at HighLight for the sig!
Check out my drafting vids at MTGOvideos!
Or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Pestermite ftw!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Mine does. I have Early Harvest, Heartbeat of Spring, Turnabout, Regrowth, and Eternal Witness in my cube, plus at least 7 outlets for the mana.
EW and Regrowth are already excellent, and Turnabout is often used in u/w fish strategies to tap all your opponent's creatures and just win, or keep from losing like Cyptic Command. Early Harvest and Heartbeat tend to only be used in combo, but I'm ok with that.
3 weeks ago this play happened -
Guy had Heartbeat and 6 lands out. He taps all, early harvest, taps all, regrowth, taps all, Izzet Chronarch, taps all, Eternal Witness, taps all. Hey then puts Endless Scream on the Chronarch to give it 20 attack, then plays Soul's Fire. Guy has a counterspell, so then he Flings it to win.
Currently 62/265 cards.
I had a W/U control deck that splashed green for Mirari's Wake to get the full benefit out of the Stroke of Genius and the Decree of Justice. I played Living Wish and grabbed a Palinchron... I then went on to make infinate mana and cycle the Decree for a billion soldiers. Sweet.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I have Intruder Alarm in my deck. There are a couple of outlets that combine with it to go infinite, most of them in green...Llanowar Elves + Imperious Perfect + Intruder Alarm, Sprout Swarm + Intruder Alarm...It's actually one of the better combo decks.
Currently 62/265 cards.
Time Vault/Tezzeret the Seeker/Voltaic Key
Painter's Servant/Grindstone
Mangara of Corondor/Karakas
Crucible of Worlds/Fastbond/Zuran Orb/Strip Mine ect ....
Metalworker/Staff of Domination
Swans of Bryn Argoll/Words of War
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Pestermite
Isochron Scepter/Orim's Chant
Black Lotus/Auriok Salvagers
There is probably more than these that I can think of ...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385729