"Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.
A Brief History of Countersliver (or "Back in the Day...")
In 1999, Chris Senhouse and his team shook up the Extended format by garnering several top 8 PTQ berths with their “House of Slivers” creation, which was basically a port of the well-known Type 2 Countersliver deck. Employing the ever-potent trio of Crystalline, Muscle and Winged Sliver as his primary win condition, Senhouse filled out the rest of the deck with counterspells, card-drawers and utility spells. The deck was well-equipped to handle the powerhouse Extended decks of the time, with Crystalline/Worship lock to frustrate Sligh, countermagic to thwart High Tide combo and countermagic + disenchants to combat Necropotence. While Senhouse's initial version ran just three colors (UWG), the deck eventually evolved (with the help of other deck innovators) into a 4-color variant with black for Hibernation Sliver, Duress and most importantly, the overpowered (and now banned) Demonic Consultation. Countersliver continued to have good success until mid-2000, at which point it fell out of favor due to shifts in the Extended metagame. Once the Revised dual lands rotated out of Extended in 2002, the Countersliver archetype rotated out with them.
Put out to pasture in the Legacy format, Countersliver languished in obscurity for several years, barely played, but not quite forgotten. Around 2006, it reemerged as "MeatHooks," a moniker derived from the pointy appearance of the sliver appendages. Though it was never considered a Tier 1 power, it managed to gain some traction in the metagame for a while. Employing Plated Sliver alongside the usual cadre of Crystalline/Muscle/Winged, the deck's primary appeal was that it was very strong against Goblins, which was considered the strongest deck in the format at the time. However, nothing lasts, and it wasn't long before Goblins began to fade from power. As Goblins receded from prominence, Countersliver began to lose relevance. At the center of this was WotC's commitment to printing increasingly powerful creatures, such as Tarmogoyf. As individual creatures became stronger, more efficient, and fully capable of winning games on their own, the hive strategy of slivers became less and less enticing. However, WotC wasn't done with slivers, and with M14 and M15 came a batch of new sliver cards for us to play with. M14 was particularly bountiful, providing highly useful new slivers in the form of Galerider, Predatory, and Syphon. Combined with the printing of Cavern of Souls and Sliver Hive to bolster a traditionally fragile manabase, there may now be enough tools to breathe life back into this dormant archetype.
Building Countersliver
Any good Countersliver deck starts with blue and white, because Crystalline Sliver. Then you add green to give the deck the muscularity that it needs. You could stop there and have a potent countersliver deck. However, many would argue that the best version of the deck is UWGB, with black being added for access to Hibernation Sliver and Syphon Sliver. Below, I have provided some sample deck lists:
Optimizing the Manabase
You should have 16-18 lands that produce or fetch color. This includes basics, duals, fetches, Caverns, and Hives. Then you can add any number of Mutavaults (highly recommended) and Wastelands (optional) that you want on top of that. Typically, the deck runs 20-22 lands, altogether. As a rule of thumb, run 20 lands for Bant, and 21 for 4-color. Add 1 if you're playing Chalice instead of Brainstorm.
Cavern of Souls: An absolute godsend for this deck. Makes your slivers uncounterable. Play 4 if you got em. If you don't got em, get em. They're too good.
Sliver Hive: Another boon to your manabase, in that it's a painless City of Brass for casting slivers. You will rarely have an opportunity to use the secondary ability, but that's okay.
Ancient Ziggurat: Cavern of Souls and Sliver Hive should be preferred to this card, but if you find that 8 cities of brass isn't enough for your liking, this is probably the next best one.
Mutavault: A land that becomes a sliver? Yes please. Make room for 3-4.
Wasteland: Combines well with Aether Vial, denying your opponent mana while you use Vial to cheat your slivers into play. That said, Mutavaults should be preferred, and it's difficult to make room for both. Maybe a 3-2 split if you just gotta.
basic lands: Always include a basic Island. This will often be the first land you fetch in the face of Wastelands. Island + cavern/hive casts every 2cc spell in the deck. If you're playing Bant Slivers, I would also recommend including a basic Plains. Never a basic forest, though.
Automatic Maindeck Cards Aether Vial: Great for color-fixing and combat trickery. Also largely invalidates your opponent’s Counterbalance-Top strategy. Automatic 4-of.
Crystalline Sliver: The backbone of the deck and still the best sliver ever printed. Listen to your opponent groan as Crystalline comes into play. Automatic 4-of.
Hibernation Sliver: For the 4-color variant, of course. Provides resilience to Terminus and Wrath effects. Can also serve as a poor man's Crystalline, allowing individual slivers to dodge spot removal. Unfortunately, the M10 rule changes put an end to the "damage on the stack" trickery that was arguably Hibernation Sliver's greatest quality. Still, the ability to declare a block, then bounce the sliver back to your hand before damage is assessed can be quite useful. Not only when dealing with large goyfs and the like, but also when dealing with creatures equipped with Umezawa's Jitte.
Galerider Sliver: The coup de gras. Break stalemates by flying over your opponent’s creatures or Moat effect.
Mutavault: A perfect addition to the deck. Provides colorless mana when needed, and becomes a 2/2 sliver when activated. The fact that it's colorless can come in handy against Mother of Rune shenanigans.
Brainstorm vs Chalice of the Void
This is perhaps the central choice to make when building a Countersliver deck. Traditionally, the deck has always run Brainstorm in this format, and why not? Combined with the fetchlands that are all but necessary to the manabase, Brainstorm is a natural fit. More recently, however, it has been suggested that the deck could benefit more from running Chalice of the Void. The thinking goes that the raw power of shutting down all of your opponent's 1cc (and sometimes 0cc) spells outweighs the hand-sculpting utility of Brainstorm.
Chalice does work well with the deck's strategy, shutting off many of the cantrips, tutors, and spot removal spells employed by the majority of decks in the format, while affecting us very little. The majority of our slivers cost 2cc, and and even Galerider can be slipped under a Chalice with the benefit of Cavern of Souls. Meanwhile, some prominent decks in the format all but roll over and die if you resolve a turn 2 Chalice. It's a bit of an ongoing experiment, but at the very least Chalice seems to be a viable option, if not preferred. See Cup O' Slivers above for an example of a decklist that employs this strategy.
Possible Maindeck Cards Swords to Plowshares: Used to be an automatic 4-of, but the times have changed. More and better slivers have been printed, and it has become reasonable to play fewer Plows or forgo them altogether.
Daze: Used to be considered a very important card in the deck, largely because it helped with sticking turn 1 Aether Vial and turn 2 Crystalline. Its value has diminished with the printing of Cavern of Souls, which makes your opponent's countermagic irrelevant. Also, as Caverns, Hives, and Mutavaults have pushed islands out of the manabase, the odds of Daze being a dead card in your hand have increased. Still, it's an option.
Echoing Truth: One or two, maybe. Useful for eradicating problematic swarms of token creatures, or bouncing some other non-land permanent that just has to go.
Harmonic Sliver: A great answer for Affinity, MUD/Stax, and CB-Top decks. Especially effective when combined with Hibernation Sliver for bounce/recursion. Can be awkward when the only available target is your own Aether Vial.
Winged Sliver: Largely obsoleted by Galerider Sliver, but there's a valid argument to be made for wanting to play one as a 5th Galerider.
Syphon Sliver: Deserves very strong consideration for 4c builds. So strong that I nearly put this in the Automatic Maindeck Cards section. Giving all your slivers Lifelink will immediately change the complexion of many games. Races you were losing suddenly swing to your favor.
Dark Confidant: Might be viable with the inclusion of Syphon Sliver to offset the loss of life. However, it's probably just going to draw all that removal that would otherwise sit uselessly in your opponent's hand because of Crystalline/Hibernation.
Phantasmal Image: Best when copying a sinew/muscle/predatory sliver. It doesn't target, so you can copy any sliver, even with Crystalline in play. Can also copy your opponent's Marit Lage, Progenitus, Emrakul, etc.
Standstill: This is one of the few pure card advantage options available to this deck, which makes it attractive. However, care must be taken to only cast it in situations that are advantageous to you.
Envelop, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Stifle, Swan Song: If you’re looking to squeeze more counter-magic into the deck, you should probably be looking at these spells. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and I can’t definitively endorse one over the other, though the consensus is probably with Spell Pierce. Stifle combines well with Wasteland, if you're playing them. Envelop is great against most combo and Control decks. Spell Pierce is just generally useful, but it isn't a hard counter. Consider what kind of metagame you’re trying to combat and make your choice accordingly.
Pithing Needle: Common namings would include Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Pernicious Deed, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Sensei’s Divining Top, Karakas, Umezawa's Jitte, planeswalkers.
Ponder: Recent countersliver lists have gone away from this card, but it can be helpful for digging out of 1-land hands, and digging for whichever piece of the sliver team you need at any given point in the game.
Wasteland: Best when combined with Stifle and/or Standstill.
Duress, Thoughtseize: Reasonable choices if you’re playing 4c and looking for more proactive disruption. Thoughtseize is more playable in conjunction with Syphon Sliver.
How to Sideboard
This deck is built in such a way that you rarely want to take out more than 4-5 cards, so build your sideboard appropriately. Don't put 7 cards in your sideboard for one specific matchup, unless you know exactly what to board out for them.
Slivers are how you win. Avoid taking out more than a couple of them out when sideboarding, unless you're replacing them with other creatures, i.e. swapping out Crystallines for Ethersworn Canonists against certain combo decks. Which slivers you board out depends on the matchup. Sometimes Crystalline, sometimes Galerider, maybe a Muscle; just don't go crazy.
Dazes can come out for something better, especially if you're on the draw.
It's sometimes appropriate to side Swords to Plowshares out. Should be pretty obvious when.
FAQ Q: Should I keep this 1-land hand? A: Maybe. Generally, you want to throw back 1-land hands, unless you have an Aether Vial. If you have a Ponder and an island or fetch, that may be an acceptable keep as well. Be warned, however, that trying to work your way out of a 1-land hand with Brainstorm is not recommended. If you miss, you lose.
Q: What about creature tutors? Like Living Wish, or Eladamri's Call? A: It's been tried. They're too slow.
Q: Merfolk does is better. A: That isn't a question. I can tell because your voice didn't go up at the end. But, yeah, okay, maybe. What of it?
Q: What about red? A: For what? Striking Sliver? Hunter Sliver? Lightning Bolt? Nah. Not worth it.
Q: What about this really awesome sliver that costs 4 or 5 mana? A: Gosh, that's a really neat sliver, Timmy. Unfortunately, it's too slow and difficult to get into play. Even 3cc slivers are mostly unplayable, with Harmonic and Syphon being the rare exceptions.
Q: Slivers are the coolest! A: Again, not a question. But yes, yes they are.
Matchups
Most of the following is based on second-hand reporting right now. Results are for a Uwgb list similar to the Patraw list above. I have only tested a handful of these matchups myself. I will update as I am able.
Tournament History & Proven Lists
Click here for results.
Credits
Chris Lennon (Volt)
James Hammer (Pinder)
Brian Crownhart (Maverick676)
John Thomas (xsockmonkeyx)
Gordy Goetz (Tosh)
Sam Blau (Kronicler)
and the rest of Team InfoNinja.
Also, special thanks to Kicks_422, who suggested 'MeatHooks' as an alternate deck name for Countersliver.
This is one of the most well written primers I've ever seen Vault. Thanks a lot for helping us out. You've also convinced me to build Meathooks. Out of curiosity, would you saw Orim's Chant is the best combo hate for this deck aside from maybe Meddling Mage?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
SKRules on Dark Rit art
5th is just a guy snapping his fingers. Maybe Nicol Bolas can get mana that way, but I can't.
This is one of the most well written primers I've ever seen Vault. Thanks a lot for helping us out. You've also convinced me to build Meathooks. Out of curiosity, would you saw Orim's Chant is the best combo hate for this deck aside from maybe Meddling Mage?
Thanks, Griever. I would say the best combo hate is a toss-up between Orim's Chant and Ethersworn Canonist. While Canonist has a much narrower application than Meddling Mage, it's much more effective against storm combo.
This is one of the most well written primers I've ever seen Vault. Thanks a lot for helping us out.
It's a decent read, but everything after sideboarding tips needs some work and fleshing out. Everything there is nice to have, but is completely useless without more explanations or reasons. It's a good start though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I edit after I post... just a heads up.
Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
why is Jitte or Survival not worth? Deckcheck.net has some 5c Sliver Survival.
or why is Duress worth MD, but Thoughtseize not?
Jitte isn't synergistic with Crystalline Sliver, so you either have to hold back on your best sliver to use the Jitte, or have a useless Jitte in your hand and play the Crystalline.
Survival puts too much strain on our green mana base, of which we have very little. We basically run it for dropping a Muscle Sliver when Vial isn't present, and occasionally a Call, but devoting a card to green activations each time you want to use it is something different completely.
Thoughtseize isn't considered better then Duress due to the life loss. Between the fetches (usually between 6 and 10), Force of Will, and Hibernation Sliver activations (the reason to run black in the first place), adding more cards that will deal damage to you isn't a wise idea. I usually find myself below 14 life through self-administered damage in most games already.
Thanks for the feedback, guys. I agree the primer could use a little fleshing out, although I think a stringent "card by card" explanation would be unwieldy and mostly unnecessary. I mean, does anybody really need me to explain why Force of Will, Daze, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Aether Vial, and the various slivers should be in the deck?
What could use an explanation is how some of the cards ended up in the "Worth Considering" and "Not Worth Considering" lists. Most of them are fairly self-explanatory, but some of them do go against intuition, such as Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant, and a few others. I'll do my best to address that in my next revision.
As for matchups... I'm purposely being vague, because I don't want the thread to devolve into bickering about win percentages, testing methods, etc. Also, so much depends on which build of Countersliver you're playing. The UWg, UWb, and UWbg variations are all viable, and all play quite a bit differently from each other. Then there are the individual card choices that each player can make when they put the deck together. Are you playing Standstill? Are you playing CB-Top? Neither? These choices have huge effects on how various matchups play out. Once you start trying to take all these things into account, it becomes virtually impossible to write a comprehensible matchup analysis.
I think a stringent "card by card" explanation would be unwieldy and mostly unnecessary.
As for matchups... I'm purposely being vague, because I don't want the thread to devolve into bickering about win percentages, testing methods, etc. Also, so much depends on which build of Countersliver you're playing. The UWg, UWb, and UWbg variations are all viable, and all play quite a bit differently from each other. Then there are the individual card choices that each player can make when they put the deck together. Are you playing Standstill? Are you playing CB-Top? Neither? These choices have huge effects on how various matchups play out. Once you start trying to take all these things into account, it becomes virtually impossible to write a comprehensible matchup analysis.
I've never had a problem reading a card-by-card analysis. Reading the insight on card choice of someone who is supposed to be very familiar with what they are writing about should be nothing but helpful. If someone feels they don't need to take a chance at learning something new, they can always skip it.
Match-up stuff should definitely be there. If the deck is proven competitive, there should be plenty of data to look at. If each of several builds has results to back up its competitive nature, the data should be there for each.
I've never had a problem reading a card-by-card analysis. Reading the insight on card choice of someone who is supposed to be very familiar with what they are writing about should be nothing but helpful. If someone feels they don't need to take a chance at learning something new, they can always skip it.
Match-up stuff should definitely be there. If the deck is proven competitive, there should be plenty of data to look at. If each of several builds has results to back up its competitive nature, the data should be there for each.
I hear ya. I'm still not going to go card by frigging card, but I'll add some commentary on what I feel are some of the notable inclusions/exclusions. Everybody knows about Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, and the wonderfulness of "free countermagic" by now.
I'll expand the matchups section a little bit, but I'm not gonna write a bible. I actually used to have quite a bit of stuff written up for various matchups, but that was back when the only version of the deck was UWg MeatHooks. A year later, the metagame changed and decklists evolved, obsoleting much of what I had written.
If you want "results to back up its competitive nature," you can check the "Tournament History & Proven Lists" link that I provided.
Why do some lists run darkheart sliver I find the card to be very crappy except in the mirror match which shouldn't be often seeing as how you don't hear about meathooks dominating. Even in the mirror match they can sack their slivers as well.
Why isn't harmonic sliver in your sideboard? I know it's 1GW but still is a very nice sb card against raffinity, landstill, or enchantress. Landstill because of humility you don't want your mutavaults going up against their mishra factory's.
Very late edit in October 2010. Darkheart sliver is no longer viable due to combat damage no longer stacking. Oh well.
Why do some lists run darkheart sliver I find the card to be very crappy except in the mirror match which shouldn't be often seeing as how you don't hear about meathooks dominating.
Why isn't harmonic sliver in your sideboard? I know it's 1GB but still is a very nice sb card against raffinity, landstill, or enchantress. Landstill because of humility you don't want your mutavaults going up against their mishra factory's.
I have not been impressed with Darkheart Sliver, either. I guess it's okay against Burn, and maybe Ichorid (just because of the sac ability), but there are better options in both cases.
Harmonic Sliver is a great sideboard choice. I listed it under Sideboard Options in the primer. However, it should be noted that the one thing Harmonic Sliver is not good against is Humility. Ideally, you should probably run a combination of Harmonic Sliver and Krosan Grip in your sideboard.
Why not run the white seal of primordium there's more white sources than there are green as white is a sort've main color of meathooks. Then again grips are uncounterable
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Why not run the white seal of primordium there's more white sources than there are green as white is a sort've main color of meathooks. Then again grips are uncounterable
You answered your own question.
Btw, I've updated the primer. Added in some explanations for the card choices. Still working on the Matchups section, though...
Working on sideboard, going to an unknown meta, how does this look?
2 Planar Void / Leyline of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Hydroblast
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Ensnare (I've played the mirror, and wanted to quit magic forever)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
Working on sideboard, going to an unknown meta, how does this look?
2 Planar Void / Leyline of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Hydroblast
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Ensnare (I've played the mirror, and wanted to quit magic forever)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
I'm thinking of running Slivers in a game tonight as a break from my usual deck, but since I'm short a couple Crystallines and Hibernations, what would be good alternatives? I'm thinking of going a little more green with Virulent, or going into black with Basal (I have this idea for a suicide move saccing sliver to Drain Life or something as an alt-win), or staying a more blue with the Shadow sliver. Any ideas for quick alternatives?
I haven't played this deck fully, so I can only address one card from your suggestions, honestly Shadow Sliver is horrible, not being able to block is so bad.
I should add something to the primer about Virulent Sliver, since it keeps coming up in these threads.
Plated Sliver is about 10 times better than Virulent Sliver. Poison counters are almost never going to be relevant. By the time you would put 10 poison counters on somebody, they're almost always going to be dead already from straight-up damage. So, you might as well play a 1cc sliver that actually does something to make all your slivers better. Plated Sliver fits the bill nicely. It's surprising how often that +1 to toughness matters. Also, those +1's stack. So, two Plated Slivers gives all your slivers +0/+2.
Yeah that's the same way I've always thought about virulent sliver...if they have 7 poison counters they should be dead simply because slivers get huge because of sinew and muscle sliver along with all the effects you have in this deck i.e. the control aspect or the unkillable sliver if you have the hibernation sliver in play
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I'm thinking of running Slivers in a game tonight as a break from my usual deck, but since I'm short a couple Crystallines and Hibernations, what would be good alternatives? I'm thinking of going a little more green with Virulent, or going into black with Basal (I have this idea for a suicide move saccing sliver to Drain Life or something as an alt-win), or staying a more blue with the Shadow sliver. Any ideas for quick alternatives?
Depending on your meta, Talon Sliver can be backbreaking. I play 2-3 of them in my builds and it's usually a deciding factor agaisnt aggro strategies when it hits. If you're short on Crystallines/Hibernations, your best bet would probably be to up the Plated Sliver counts, however, since it improves the resiliency of your slivers, which is technically what the slivers you're lacking do.
Yeah that's the same way I've always thought about virulent sliver...if they have 7 poison counters they should be dead simply because slivers get huge because of sinew and muscle sliver along with all the effects you have in this deck i.e. the control aspect or the unkillable sliver if you have the hibernation sliver in play
You don't want to go overboard with Hibernations, though. Sure, you're making your slivering almost unkillable, but at 2 life per activation, not including fetchland damage and FoW damage, it can get you in the red faster then you think.
Here's a list I took to an event a few weeks ago, finishing in the top eight out of 30+ participants. It's not the most ideal list as it's only two colours, but it performed better then I imagined as it improves the Goblin matchup a lot. The mirror is great as well with the included Mirror Entity, which is something I think people should be running sideboard if they expect to run into any mirror matches. Like Joe Chaos said, playing the Mirror makes people want to quit Magic.
Again,far from optimal, but it did it's job. Hold down the fort early game with permission and first strike, working behind a Standstill with Vials and Vaults when you can. Late game use the Entity's activations for the win.
Has anyone tried running Synapse Sliver for card draw, or is it just too expensive?
Way too expensive. 5 mana in Legacy is equivalent to 8cc in Standard Quite honestly, Standstill really is the best draw engine for this deck, and we have Brainstorm as an instant-speed draw as well. Running a card for 5cc when most decks are running 18-20 lands at most generally isn't a good idea. If you really have your heart set on running it, i'd just splash it in as a singleton so it won't hurt too bad if you don't draw it.
It seems like you were playing my list, except for a different landbase. The Adarkar really shouldn't have been there, and neither should have those plains (the only reason I run them is that I can't afford the Strands). You need as many Islands as you can get for Daze.
All I can say is that you need to aggressively mulligan game one a lot of time, and sideboarding correctly can solve a lot of your game two problems. Just simply having a bunch of Slivers and/or Vial doesn't mean you should be keeping the hand. You should want to see a mix of lands (obviously :p), Slivers, and at least one counterspell (FoW or Daze), plus some additional tech, whether it's a Standstill, StP, or Vial. If you need to mull to six or five to get a good hand, by all means do so, as Standstill can get you back into the race in a hurry. Even then, the specifics of what slivers you have in hand can dictate whether to mull or not. Generally speaking, I like my opening hand to be: Tundra, Island, Vial, Crystalline, Sinew, Fow, Standstill. We don't live in a perfect world, however, but if we did, that would be the opening 7 you'd get every game.
Sideboard wise, I think not running Pithing Needle is a mistake. It would shut off the Deeds, Charbelcher, and EE, three cards you cited as problems. Try dropping the Mages and the Truth for a playset andsee how much better your game 2+ becomes. Also, why no Stifle? It does the same thing as Needles and is a great tempo card in disrupting opposing fetches.
For your 5 colour list, running Mutavault would no be recommended, and if you did I'd limit it to a maximum of two. The land base at 4 colours is shaky as is, five is going to be real rocky. I also don't think you should be splashing into red. You don't need another pump (eight is enough), and you don't need regeneration since you're running the Hibernation Sliver. You do, however, need Winged Sliver for evasion, since it's the one thing your deck is lacking. Leigon is a winmore too and should be dropped, not to mention being too expensive.
Ponder vs. Brainstorm is a personal call, but I think you should drop the ponders for another two Brainstorms. Instant speed is key here since it lets you find a FoW buried three cards down and play it, where as Ponder can't.
Brainstorm is the best card in legacy. Run 4 of it.
Why are you people running 5 cmc slivers? They are terrible in meathooks what with the mutavaults MD. 3 cmc is the max casting cost for this deck seeing as how you can use vial for them without waiting a bunch of turns but 2 cmc slivers are what this deck runs on and are the only thing it needs just get 3 muscle sliver effects in play with winged sliver and you'll see why it's so good when you have 4 5/5 fliers swinging the equivalent of sarkhan vol's 'ultimate'
Sliver Legion = winmore
The draw sliver is so bad compared to standstill and brainstorm seeing as how you could, in theory, play 4 brainstorms drawing 4 cards for UUUU whereas that card is 5 mana
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
One thing Ponder has going for it is the ability to shuffle away bad topdecks if you're not running tops or fetches, which is why I said it's a personal choice. I'd say 98% of the time I'd want it to be Brainstorm, though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Legacy Countersliver
"Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.
A Brief History of Countersliver (or "Back in the Day...")
In 1999, Chris Senhouse and his team shook up the Extended format by garnering several top 8 PTQ berths with their “House of Slivers” creation, which was basically a port of the well-known Type 2 Countersliver deck. Employing the ever-potent trio of Crystalline, Muscle and Winged Sliver as his primary win condition, Senhouse filled out the rest of the deck with counterspells, card-drawers and utility spells. The deck was well-equipped to handle the powerhouse Extended decks of the time, with Crystalline/Worship lock to frustrate Sligh, countermagic to thwart High Tide combo and countermagic + disenchants to combat Necropotence. While Senhouse's initial version ran just three colors (UWG), the deck eventually evolved (with the help of other deck innovators) into a 4-color variant with black for Hibernation Sliver, Duress and most importantly, the overpowered (and now banned) Demonic Consultation. Countersliver continued to have good success until mid-2000, at which point it fell out of favor due to shifts in the Extended metagame. Once the Revised dual lands rotated out of Extended in 2002, the Countersliver archetype rotated out with them.
Put out to pasture in the Legacy format, Countersliver languished in obscurity for several years, barely played, but not quite forgotten. Around 2006, it reemerged as "MeatHooks," a moniker derived from the pointy appearance of the sliver appendages. Though it was never considered a Tier 1 power, it managed to gain some traction in the metagame for a while. Employing Plated Sliver alongside the usual cadre of Crystalline/Muscle/Winged, the deck's primary appeal was that it was very strong against Goblins, which was considered the strongest deck in the format at the time. However, nothing lasts, and it wasn't long before Goblins began to fade from power. As Goblins receded from prominence, Countersliver began to lose relevance. At the center of this was WotC's commitment to printing increasingly powerful creatures, such as Tarmogoyf. As individual creatures became stronger, more efficient, and fully capable of winning games on their own, the hive strategy of slivers became less and less enticing. However, WotC wasn't done with slivers, and with M14 and M15 came a batch of new sliver cards for us to play with. M14 was particularly bountiful, providing highly useful new slivers in the form of Galerider, Predatory, and Syphon. Combined with the printing of Cavern of Souls and Sliver Hive to bolster a traditionally fragile manabase, there may now be enough tools to breathe life back into this dormant archetype.
Building Countersliver
Any good Countersliver deck starts with blue and white, because Crystalline Sliver. Then you add green to give the deck the muscularity that it needs. You could stop there and have a potent countersliver deck. However, many would argue that the best version of the deck is UWGB, with black being added for access to Hibernation Sliver and Syphon Sliver. Below, I have provided some sample deck lists:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
LANDS
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Standstill
1 Swan Song
1 Ponder
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
4 Aether Vial
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
LANDS
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Sinew Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
LANDS
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
2 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
Optimizing the Manabase
You should have 16-18 lands that produce or fetch color. This includes basics, duals, fetches, Caverns, and Hives. Then you can add any number of Mutavaults (highly recommended) and Wastelands (optional) that you want on top of that. Typically, the deck runs 20-22 lands, altogether. As a rule of thumb, run 20 lands for Bant, and 21 for 4-color. Add 1 if you're playing Chalice instead of Brainstorm.
Cavern of Souls: An absolute godsend for this deck. Makes your slivers uncounterable. Play 4 if you got em. If you don't got em, get em. They're too good.
Sliver Hive: Another boon to your manabase, in that it's a painless City of Brass for casting slivers. You will rarely have an opportunity to use the secondary ability, but that's okay.
Ancient Ziggurat: Cavern of Souls and Sliver Hive should be preferred to this card, but if you find that 8 cities of brass isn't enough for your liking, this is probably the next best one.
Mutavault: A land that becomes a sliver? Yes please. Make room for 3-4.
Wasteland: Combines well with Aether Vial, denying your opponent mana while you use Vial to cheat your slivers into play. That said, Mutavaults should be preferred, and it's difficult to make room for both. Maybe a 3-2 split if you just gotta.
basic lands: Always include a basic Island. This will often be the first land you fetch in the face of Wastelands. Island + cavern/hive casts every 2cc spell in the deck. If you're playing Bant Slivers, I would also recommend including a basic Plains. Never a basic forest, though.
Automatic Maindeck Cards
Aether Vial: Great for color-fixing and combat trickery. Also largely invalidates your opponent’s Counterbalance-Top strategy. Automatic 4-of.
Crystalline Sliver: The backbone of the deck and still the best sliver ever printed. Listen to your opponent groan as Crystalline comes into play. Automatic 4-of.
Hibernation Sliver: For the 4-color variant, of course. Provides resilience to Terminus and Wrath effects. Can also serve as a poor man's Crystalline, allowing individual slivers to dodge spot removal. Unfortunately, the M10 rule changes put an end to the "damage on the stack" trickery that was arguably Hibernation Sliver's greatest quality. Still, the ability to declare a block, then bounce the sliver back to your hand before damage is assessed can be quite useful. Not only when dealing with large goyfs and the like, but also when dealing with creatures equipped with Umezawa's Jitte.
Sinew Sliver/Muscle Sliver/Predatory Sliver: Make your slivers beefy! Start with 4 Predatory, then fit in as many Sinews and Muscles as you can.
Galerider Sliver: The coup de gras. Break stalemates by flying over your opponent’s creatures or Moat effect.
Mutavault: A perfect addition to the deck. Provides colorless mana when needed, and becomes a 2/2 sliver when activated. The fact that it's colorless can come in handy against Mother of Rune shenanigans.
Force of Will: Puts the "counter" in countersliver.
Brainstorm vs Chalice of the Void
This is perhaps the central choice to make when building a Countersliver deck. Traditionally, the deck has always run Brainstorm in this format, and why not? Combined with the fetchlands that are all but necessary to the manabase, Brainstorm is a natural fit. More recently, however, it has been suggested that the deck could benefit more from running Chalice of the Void. The thinking goes that the raw power of shutting down all of your opponent's 1cc (and sometimes 0cc) spells outweighs the hand-sculpting utility of Brainstorm.
Chalice does work well with the deck's strategy, shutting off many of the cantrips, tutors, and spot removal spells employed by the majority of decks in the format, while affecting us very little. The majority of our slivers cost 2cc, and and even Galerider can be slipped under a Chalice with the benefit of Cavern of Souls. Meanwhile, some prominent decks in the format all but roll over and die if you resolve a turn 2 Chalice. It's a bit of an ongoing experiment, but at the very least Chalice seems to be a viable option, if not preferred. See Cup O' Slivers above for an example of a decklist that employs this strategy.
Possible Maindeck Cards
Swords to Plowshares: Used to be an automatic 4-of, but the times have changed. More and better slivers have been printed, and it has become reasonable to play fewer Plows or forgo them altogether.
Daze: Used to be considered a very important card in the deck, largely because it helped with sticking turn 1 Aether Vial and turn 2 Crystalline. Its value has diminished with the printing of Cavern of Souls, which makes your opponent's countermagic irrelevant. Also, as Caverns, Hives, and Mutavaults have pushed islands out of the manabase, the odds of Daze being a dead card in your hand have increased. Still, it's an option.
Echoing Truth: One or two, maybe. Useful for eradicating problematic swarms of token creatures, or bouncing some other non-land permanent that just has to go.
Harmonic Sliver: A great answer for Affinity, MUD/Stax, and CB-Top decks. Especially effective when combined with Hibernation Sliver for bounce/recursion. Can be awkward when the only available target is your own Aether Vial.
Winged Sliver: Largely obsoleted by Galerider Sliver, but there's a valid argument to be made for wanting to play one as a 5th Galerider.
Syphon Sliver: Deserves very strong consideration for 4c builds. So strong that I nearly put this in the Automatic Maindeck Cards section. Giving all your slivers Lifelink will immediately change the complexion of many games. Races you were losing suddenly swing to your favor.
Dark Confidant: Might be viable with the inclusion of Syphon Sliver to offset the loss of life. However, it's probably just going to draw all that removal that would otherwise sit uselessly in your opponent's hand because of Crystalline/Hibernation.
Phantasmal Image: Best when copying a sinew/muscle/predatory sliver. It doesn't target, so you can copy any sliver, even with Crystalline in play. Can also copy your opponent's Marit Lage, Progenitus, Emrakul, etc.
Standstill: This is one of the few pure card advantage options available to this deck, which makes it attractive. However, care must be taken to only cast it in situations that are advantageous to you.
Envelop, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Stifle, Swan Song: If you’re looking to squeeze more counter-magic into the deck, you should probably be looking at these spells. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and I can’t definitively endorse one over the other, though the consensus is probably with Spell Pierce. Stifle combines well with Wasteland, if you're playing them. Envelop is great against most combo and Control decks. Spell Pierce is just generally useful, but it isn't a hard counter. Consider what kind of metagame you’re trying to combat and make your choice accordingly.
Pithing Needle: Common namings would include Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Pernicious Deed, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Sensei’s Divining Top, Karakas, Umezawa's Jitte, planeswalkers.
Ponder: Recent countersliver lists have gone away from this card, but it can be helpful for digging out of 1-land hands, and digging for whichever piece of the sliver team you need at any given point in the game.
Wasteland: Best when combined with Stifle and/or Standstill.
Duress, Thoughtseize: Reasonable choices if you’re playing 4c and looking for more proactive disruption. Thoughtseize is more playable in conjunction with Syphon Sliver.
Sideboard Options
Extirpate, Surgical Extraction, Planar Void, Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Krosan Grip, Vindicate, Serenity, Harmonic Sliver, Syphon Sliver, Talon Sliver, Darkheart Sliver, Engineered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Moat, Worship, Chill, Hydroblast, Blue Elemental Blast, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Stifle, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Annul, Divert, Misdirection, Flusterstorm, Steel Sabotage, Swan Song, Gilded Drake, Meddling Mage, Containment Priest, Runed Halo, Gaddock Teeg, Duress, Thoughtseize, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Submerge, Mind Harness, Orim's Chant, Ensnare, Path to Exile.
How to Sideboard
This deck is built in such a way that you rarely want to take out more than 4-5 cards, so build your sideboard appropriately. Don't put 7 cards in your sideboard for one specific matchup, unless you know exactly what to board out for them.
Slivers are how you win. Avoid taking out more than a couple of them out when sideboarding, unless you're replacing them with other creatures, i.e. swapping out Crystallines for Ethersworn Canonists against certain combo decks. Which slivers you board out depends on the matchup. Sometimes Crystalline, sometimes Galerider, maybe a Muscle; just don't go crazy.
Dazes can come out for something better, especially if you're on the draw.
It's sometimes appropriate to side Swords to Plowshares out. Should be pretty obvious when.
FAQ
Q: Should I keep this 1-land hand?
A: Maybe. Generally, you want to throw back 1-land hands, unless you have an Aether Vial. If you have a Ponder and an island or fetch, that may be an acceptable keep as well. Be warned, however, that trying to work your way out of a 1-land hand with Brainstorm is not recommended. If you miss, you lose.
Q: What about creature tutors? Like Living Wish, or Eladamri's Call?
A: It's been tried. They're too slow.
Q: Merfolk does is better.
A: That isn't a question. I can tell because your voice didn't go up at the end. But, yeah, okay, maybe. What of it?
Q: What about red?
A: For what? Striking Sliver? Hunter Sliver? Lightning Bolt? Nah. Not worth it.
Q: What about this really awesome sliver that costs 4 or 5 mana?
A: Gosh, that's a really neat sliver, Timmy. Unfortunately, it's too slow and difficult to get into play. Even 3cc slivers are mostly unplayable, with Harmonic and Syphon being the rare exceptions.
Q: Slivers are the coolest!
A: Again, not a question. But yes, yes they are.
Matchups
Most of the following is based on second-hand reporting right now. Results are for a Uwgb list similar to the Patraw list above. I have only tested a handful of these matchups myself. I will update as I am able.
Bad: Storm, Mud, BR Reanimator, NicFit
50/50: Goblins, Sneak and Show, Elves, Infect, Burn, Canadian Thresh
Good: Reliquary Retreat, DnT, 4c Cascade, Merfolk, Miracle, Pox, BUG Delver
Tournament History & Proven Lists
Click here for results.
Credits
Chris Lennon (Volt)
James Hammer (Pinder)
Brian Crownhart (Maverick676)
John Thomas (xsockmonkeyx)
Gordy Goetz (Tosh)
Sam Blau (Kronicler)
and the rest of Team InfoNinja.
Also, special thanks to Kicks_422, who suggested 'MeatHooks' as an alternate deck name for Countersliver.
References & Additional Reading
The Secret Life of Slivers
A Sliver Story
Sliver Me Timbers
Sliver Anatomy
Prisoner of the Skep; or, How I Encountered the Slivers—and Lived to Tell the Tale!
Tales from the Crypt Sliver
Take the Sliver Quiz!
Sliver Pâté
This Hive is No Mos Eisley
A Sliver of a Chance
Thanks, Griever. I would say the best combo hate is a toss-up between Orim's Chant and Ethersworn Canonist. While Canonist has a much narrower application than Meddling Mage, it's much more effective against storm combo.
I would guess that is because standard plan is to Vial a sliver in EoT, and it will have recovered from summoning sickness on your following turn.
very nice primer Volt!
It's a decent read, but everything after sideboarding tips needs some work and fleshing out. Everything there is nice to have, but is completely useless without more explanations or reasons. It's a good start though.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Jitte isn't synergistic with Crystalline Sliver, so you either have to hold back on your best sliver to use the Jitte, or have a useless Jitte in your hand and play the Crystalline.
Survival puts too much strain on our green mana base, of which we have very little. We basically run it for dropping a Muscle Sliver when Vial isn't present, and occasionally a Call, but devoting a card to green activations each time you want to use it is something different completely.
Thoughtseize isn't considered better then Duress due to the life loss. Between the fetches (usually between 6 and 10), Force of Will, and Hibernation Sliver activations (the reason to run black in the first place), adding more cards that will deal damage to you isn't a wise idea. I usually find myself below 14 life through self-administered damage in most games already.
What could use an explanation is how some of the cards ended up in the "Worth Considering" and "Not Worth Considering" lists. Most of them are fairly self-explanatory, but some of them do go against intuition, such as Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant, and a few others. I'll do my best to address that in my next revision.
As for matchups... I'm purposely being vague, because I don't want the thread to devolve into bickering about win percentages, testing methods, etc. Also, so much depends on which build of Countersliver you're playing. The UWg, UWb, and UWbg variations are all viable, and all play quite a bit differently from each other. Then there are the individual card choices that each player can make when they put the deck together. Are you playing Standstill? Are you playing CB-Top? Neither? These choices have huge effects on how various matchups play out. Once you start trying to take all these things into account, it becomes virtually impossible to write a comprehensible matchup analysis.
I've never had a problem reading a card-by-card analysis. Reading the insight on card choice of someone who is supposed to be very familiar with what they are writing about should be nothing but helpful. If someone feels they don't need to take a chance at learning something new, they can always skip it.
Match-up stuff should definitely be there. If the deck is proven competitive, there should be plenty of data to look at. If each of several builds has results to back up its competitive nature, the data should be there for each.
I hear ya. I'm still not going to go card by frigging card, but I'll add some commentary on what I feel are some of the notable inclusions/exclusions. Everybody knows about Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, and the wonderfulness of "free countermagic" by now.
I'll expand the matchups section a little bit, but I'm not gonna write a bible. I actually used to have quite a bit of stuff written up for various matchups, but that was back when the only version of the deck was UWg MeatHooks. A year later, the metagame changed and decklists evolved, obsoleting much of what I had written.
If you want "results to back up its competitive nature," you can check the "Tournament History & Proven Lists" link that I provided.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Why isn't harmonic sliver in your sideboard? I know it's 1GW but still is a very nice sb card against raffinity, landstill, or enchantress. Landstill because of humility you don't want your mutavaults going up against their mishra factory's.
Very late edit in October 2010. Darkheart sliver is no longer viable due to combat damage no longer stacking. Oh well.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I have not been impressed with Darkheart Sliver, either. I guess it's okay against Burn, and maybe Ichorid (just because of the sac ability), but there are better options in both cases.
Harmonic Sliver is a great sideboard choice. I listed it under Sideboard Options in the primer. However, it should be noted that the one thing Harmonic Sliver is not good against is Humility. Ideally, you should probably run a combination of Harmonic Sliver and Krosan Grip in your sideboard.
Currently Playing:
Retired
You answered your own question.
Btw, I've updated the primer. Added in some explanations for the card choices. Still working on the Matchups section, though...
2 Planar Void / Leyline of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Hydroblast
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Ensnare (I've played the mirror, and wanted to quit magic forever)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
Yeah, that looks pretty solid to me.
Virtulent sliver seems a good replacement
Plated Sliver is about 10 times better than Virulent Sliver. Poison counters are almost never going to be relevant. By the time you would put 10 poison counters on somebody, they're almost always going to be dead already from straight-up damage. So, you might as well play a 1cc sliver that actually does something to make all your slivers better. Plated Sliver fits the bill nicely. It's surprising how often that +1 to toughness matters. Also, those +1's stack. So, two Plated Slivers gives all your slivers +0/+2.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Depending on your meta, Talon Sliver can be backbreaking. I play 2-3 of them in my builds and it's usually a deciding factor agaisnt aggro strategies when it hits. If you're short on Crystallines/Hibernations, your best bet would probably be to up the Plated Sliver counts, however, since it improves the resiliency of your slivers, which is technically what the slivers you're lacking do.
You don't want to go overboard with Hibernations, though. Sure, you're making your slivering almost unkillable, but at 2 life per activation, not including fetchland damage and FoW damage, it can get you in the red faster then you think.
Here's a list I took to an event a few weeks ago, finishing in the top eight out of 30+ participants. It's not the most ideal list as it's only two colours, but it performed better then I imagined as it improves the Goblin matchup a lot. The mirror is great as well with the included Mirror Entity, which is something I think people should be running sideboard if they expect to run into any mirror matches. Like Joe Chaos said, playing the Mirror makes people want to quit Magic.
4x Crystalline Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
4x Plated Sliver
3x Winged Sliver
3x Talon Sliver
3x Mirror Entity
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x AEther Vial
4x Standstill
3x Swords to Plowshare
4x Tundra
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Mutavault
4x Island
4x Plains
Way too expensive. 5 mana in Legacy is equivalent to 8cc in Standard Quite honestly, Standstill really is the best draw engine for this deck, and we have Brainstorm as an instant-speed draw as well. Running a card for 5cc when most decks are running 18-20 lands at most generally isn't a good idea. If you really have your heart set on running it, i'd just splash it in as a singleton so it won't hurt too bad if you don't draw it.
All I can say is that you need to aggressively mulligan game one a lot of time, and sideboarding correctly can solve a lot of your game two problems. Just simply having a bunch of Slivers and/or Vial doesn't mean you should be keeping the hand. You should want to see a mix of lands (obviously :p), Slivers, and at least one counterspell (FoW or Daze), plus some additional tech, whether it's a Standstill, StP, or Vial. If you need to mull to six or five to get a good hand, by all means do so, as Standstill can get you back into the race in a hurry. Even then, the specifics of what slivers you have in hand can dictate whether to mull or not. Generally speaking, I like my opening hand to be: Tundra, Island, Vial, Crystalline, Sinew, Fow, Standstill. We don't live in a perfect world, however, but if we did, that would be the opening 7 you'd get every game.
Sideboard wise, I think not running Pithing Needle is a mistake. It would shut off the Deeds, Charbelcher, and EE, three cards you cited as problems. Try dropping the Mages and the Truth for a playset andsee how much better your game 2+ becomes. Also, why no Stifle? It does the same thing as Needles and is a great tempo card in disrupting opposing fetches.
For your 5 colour list, running Mutavault would no be recommended, and if you did I'd limit it to a maximum of two. The land base at 4 colours is shaky as is, five is going to be real rocky. I also don't think you should be splashing into red. You don't need another pump (eight is enough), and you don't need regeneration since you're running the Hibernation Sliver. You do, however, need Winged Sliver for evasion, since it's the one thing your deck is lacking. Leigon is a winmore too and should be dropped, not to mention being too expensive.
Ponder vs. Brainstorm is a personal call, but I think you should drop the ponders for another two Brainstorms. Instant speed is key here since it lets you find a FoW buried three cards down and play it, where as Ponder can't.
Brainstorm is the best card in legacy. Run 4 of it.
Why are you people running 5 cmc slivers? They are terrible in meathooks what with the mutavaults MD. 3 cmc is the max casting cost for this deck seeing as how you can use vial for them without waiting a bunch of turns but 2 cmc slivers are what this deck runs on and are the only thing it needs just get 3 muscle sliver effects in play with winged sliver and you'll see why it's so good when you have 4 5/5 fliers swinging the equivalent of sarkhan vol's 'ultimate'
Sliver Legion = winmore
The draw sliver is so bad compared to standstill and brainstorm seeing as how you could, in theory, play 4 brainstorms drawing 4 cards for UUUU whereas that card is 5 mana
Currently Playing:
Retired