Thirst for Knowledge: A Legacy Weapon

[Shinjutsei]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Thirst for Knowledge: A Legacy Weapon. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[Tidbit1]

This was a fun read. I don't keep up with legacy that well, but you piqued my interest. Best of luck at the GP.

[jjflipped]

well i switched things up for the prix... and i will play it against you if i play you

[trollwarrior_666]

It was an interesting and pretty accurate read. I only have some comment on Faery Stompy. It's a really good deck in my opinion since it plays Chalice of the Void, Force of Will and it has carddraw and tutors (which is great because other Ancient Tomb decks don't have draw or tutors which makes them much weaker). The only thing that's holding back the popularity of the deck is the incredably expensive Sea Drake.

[weatherguy]

Very nice article, Shin. I was surprised just how much I enjoyed reading about a format that I have played so little. I have to admit that playing the Merfolk deck you listed was just a blast during play testing. I had forgotten just how much fun it is to say "Force?" and watch the opponent's face fall.

Best of Luck in Chicago this weekend! Wish I didn't have to work all weekend.

[Naz]

You misunderstand Aggro Loam, it doesn't look like you have a lot of experience with that deck. Between chalice (mainboard) and sideboard anti combo it has more to offer against combo then you claim. I'd be completely surprised if aggro loam doesn't make top 4 unless it just doesn't show up at all.

[Juan Ton Soup]

Hey folks, just so you know. Shin probably didn't encounter this, but don't go thinking that Stifles are going to win you the ANT matchup. Once they Orim's Chant you, you can forget about stifling anything. And 10 Islands in Merfolk is extremely low. If you go to Chicago with that many, I can assure you that you will be tossing a few games away from lack of blue mana and mulliganing like crazy.

[CaptShetz]

Originally Posted by Juan Ton Soup

Hey folks, just so you know. Shin probably didn't encounter this, but don't go thinking that Stifles are going to win you the ANT matchup. Once they Orim's Chant you, you can forget about stifling anything. And 10 Islands in Merfolk is extremely low. If you go to Chicago with that many, I can assure you that you will be tossing a few games away from lack of blue mana and mulliganing like crazy.

I was going to say the same thing. Swap out some of those colorless sources.

I'm definitely going to Chicago, and hope to see you there. Michigan ftw! ;p

Not sure what I will be packing. Based on my posting in the forums, you can probably guess my picks: Suicide (or some variant thereof) or D&T. Hmm!

And here's to Rob Alexander being at the GP! Get those duals, fetches and shocks signed!

[loop]

Hi. I kinda liked reading the article, it's nice to have an overall view of the format, yet I see many things with which I don't agree at all.

but the printing of Warren Wierding in Morningtide finally gave the archetype a solid answer to Nimble Mongoose.

WW especially helps to handle Tarmogoyf, which is the biggest problem for Goblins, not Mongoose.

Goblins is also unique in that it is the only Vial deck that does not want to drop a Vial on the first turn. Instead, it wants to play Goblin Lackey as early as possible to begin the shenanigans.

No. Sorry, but you just can't oversimplify it like that. I often choose to play Vial t1 over Lackey.

as well as the countermagic that can ruin your deck.

Goblins do not fear countermagic at all. You just have too many bombs for 4-8 hard counters to matter.

The storm and combo match-ups are shored up quite well with this sideboard

Really? Have you actually playtested this? 4 Seizes, 2 random Pillars and some Extirpates win you the combo match up... ? I'd say you need MUCH more hate than this to stand a chance, especially since you have to win both post-board games. Pillar isn't really great, only comes down turn2 (and also prevents you from playing actual threats), and even if it was actually good you only run TWO. As for the Seizes... well, 4 discard effects do not beat storm combo in this format. Especially with Ad nauseam (+ mystical tutor).

Well, one reason is speed: the deck is nearly unmatched when it comes to reducing life totals to zero

Goblins isn't that fast compared to other aggro decks (like goyf sligh?), its strength is that it has an incredible CA engine and strong mid/late game. It's not an all-in early game aggro deck. Your biggest bombs cost 3-5 mana, seriously. Besides the lackey openings, you rarely have blazing speed.

The Merfolks list seems a bit subpar- the manabase is horrible (only 10 islands?!), you cut a wasteland and run no Stifle, making the tempo plan of the deck really weaker (which makes me think - how can you do a write up about merfolks without mentionning "tempo" even once?).

Merfolk plays Standstill along with its creature suite, mostly because its manabase can afford to play Rishadan Port and Wasteland to help counteract the opponent's plans under a Standstill.

No, Mutavault is the card that gives you an edge under standstill, with Vial obviously.

About ANT, as said before Dreadstill's Stifles aren't that scary, since a resolved Ad nauseam means you'll find a way to handle it.

The other Brainstorm combo decks (TES, Solidarity, Doomsday, Full English Breakfast, etc) aren't as powerful as ANT is in my opinion, and should not be considered with any priority over it.

I can understand the idea that Solidarity/FEB aren't exactly the combo decks of choice due to the lack of speed compared to Tendrils variants, but could you elaborate on why you think TES and Doomsday are in any way weaker than ANT?
Since the printing of Ad nauseam, it has been added to TES, replacing draw4's and other stuff maindeck, basically making the deck very similar to ANT. There are different card choices to accomodate with the deck's design, but they have a LOT in common, so I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that one is the best combo deck in the format while the other isn't worth playing.
As for doomsday, I don't understand either- in your article you seem to think that Thresh/Dreadstill and other blue aggro-control decks will be played by many people at the GP, yet you write off doomsday as a subpar choice, while it certainly has the best chance against blue stuff among Tendrils decks.
Do you actually know/follow these decks developments?

While Stax shines in various control match-ups and against combo decks (thanks to Chalice of the Void on turn off of an Ancient Tomb), it falters against the Vial decks quite frequently. Unless it sticks a turn-two Ghostly Prison, Stax is likely not going to be able to keep up with Goblins or Merfolk.

So, you're saying White Stax has a bad Goblins match up? That seems a bit far-fetched. While it's true that you need to know how to play against gobs (ie, know what hands to keep/send back so that you don't get overwhelmed keeping a slow hand), it's certainly not an easy match for the goblins player.

Ichorid just can't overcome all the hate that has become mainstream by now

There's way less hate right now than when Ichorid was at the peek of its popularity, yet it kept winning- the deck is strong and certainly CAN play through hate. It just seems like a bold/wrong statement not backed up by a lot of testing.

Aggro Loam does well against aggressive decks because it has a strong sweeper in Devastating Dreams that kills all blocker and lets your big guys stick around, but that isn't nearly enough to give it a whole lot of game against the Brainstorm decks...and especially ANT.

Yeah, Loam is weak against combo. But it has good match ups against Thresh and the likes, so why would you say it's weak against "brainstorm decks"?

About Elves/survival:

I don't think this deck is that good of a choice for Chicago based mostly on that it only has a few match-ups that are favorable, and none of them are the match-ups that are all that important.

While you can get some explosive wins with Survival decks, I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to take a mono-green (or sometimes other colors, sure) deck to a Grand Prix where 80% of the players will have blue mana. It just doesn't add up to me, but maybe that's just my intuition talking...

Well, what about Elf Survival? The deck is very strong and actually has favorable Thresh/blue match ups. Active survival means gg, while Elves beatdown with a Lord on the board and Messengers refilling your hand is a strong plan too. Choke from the board just makes things better.

Anyway, don't get me wrong- I seem to bitch a lot, but I don't mean to be rude. I appreciate the time & effort you put into this, and I like reading articles about Legacy, it just seems that you lack insight in some decks/match ups, and so you end up making weird/wrong statements and assuming things that are not necessarily true, which isn't good for an article aimed at people not familiar with the format (which I assume this is?).

[depolarization]

I still find counter-balance thresh to be the best deck in the format.

"The Source" is a great message board for legacy. And when I played competitively it was either LAndstill or Deadguy, I was always edged out by Thresh. It's just so robust and versatile and frankly, Dominant, unless the goblins got the nutz. Though I hear dredge is hurting threshold now.

Of course I got blown out in Columbus a couple years ago when flash-combo was around.

[Vimes]

Who are the players who consider Dreadstill to be one of the top decks? I'm kind of doubtful about that claim, as Counterbalance Thresh places much more. I doubt Stifle - Dreadnought even compares that well to Natural Order - random dude.

[CaptShetz]

I just glad this article replaced the "Ugh, GP Chicago is LEGACY!?!?!" sentiment with "GP Chicago is LEGACY!!! Joy and jubilation!"

Very happy about that.

[Finn]

The thing about Dreadstill is that it has major card advantage engines built in and does not even need a Dreadnought to pound you. Though it usually goes to it just the same.

[mada7]

While I agree vial and brainstorm are exceptionally useful and versatile cards they do not need to be in every competitive deck. Mono red burn if built just right and piloted by someone better than myself can surprise people. If the meta has a lot of combo and standstill based decks dragon stompy will have a very good showing without brainstorm or vial. Belcher decks also run neither vial nor brainstorm and have the potential to win any game. So as I was saying vial and brainstorm are very good cards but they aren't the end all be all that you made them out to be in the article

Also I am aware that the decks I listed are not massively popular but the more people show up for a tournament the more likely you are to find someone piloting one of those decks as at least 2 of them are fairly easy to put together (burn with a total cost around $50 tops and belcher which only has LED as a money sink since shocklands are completely useable replacements for bayou and taiga in this deck)

[trollwarrior_666]

Originally Posted by mada7

While I agree vial and brainstorm are exceptionally useful and versatile cards they do not need to be in every competitive deck. Mono red burn if built just right and piloted by someone better than myself can surprise people. If the meta has a lot of combo and standstill based decks dragon stompy will have a very good showing without brainstorm or vial. Belcher decks also run neither vial nor brainstorm and have the potential to win any game. So as I was saying vial and brainstorm are very good cards but they aren't the end all be all that you made them out to be in the article

True, but all those decks have some difficulties. Burn has a difficult time against dedicated discard and Counterbalance, Dragonstompy regularly dies to their own mulligans and Belcher dies to a well timed counterspell. They can win games and smaller tourneys, but don't expect to T8 at a bigger tourney with these decks.

I also agree with loop's points of comment, there were some small mistakes but it was a good and enthusiastic read.