I know that this works, but i want some actually evidence in writing to back it up, if clone is in play copying a guy with presist, when it dies, persist checks then it comes back into play as another clone so you get to re copy a creature without a -1/-1 counter on it. Can someone point me in the right direction to this ruleing so i can have writen evidence it works....thanks
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
ok, the reason i ask is because at FNM last week, a guy had kitchen finks, clone and nantuko husk out and precided to gain infinate life by sacing the clone and saying that the clone gets to continually come back into play
ok, the reason i ask is because at FNM last week, a guy had kitchen finks, clone and nantuko husk out and precided to gain infinate life by sacing the clone and saying that the clone gets to continually come back into play
This definitely is not what happens with the cards that you stated. The first time the Clone is sacrificed, it comes back with a -1/-1 counter. The second time it is sacrificed, it stays in the graveyard because Persist won't bring it back if it had a -1/-1 counter on it.
You could have just asked this as your initial question, it's far easier to answer than what you wrote in your first post.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
what the guy playing the deck told me was since it copied a creature without a -1/-1 counter on it that it would get removed...now it makes sence. I will be sure to correct this guy as he's been winning alot of games at FNM off of this (we dont have a real judge)
what the guy playing the deck told me was since it copied a creature without a -1/-1 counter on it that it would get removed...now it makes sence. I will be sure to correct this guy as he's been winning alot of games at FNM off of this (we dont have a real judge)
You can show everybody the rule for Persist
502.79a. Persist is a triggered ability. "Persist" means "When this permanent is put into a graveyard from play, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to play under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it."
As well as the fact that having or not having counters on a permanent is not a copyable value
503.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics (name, mana cost, color, card type, supertype, subtype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, loyalty) and, for an object on the stack, choices made when playing it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether a kicker cost was paid, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values that are printed on the object, as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . comes into play" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=134303&highlight=clone+persist
and it does come back with a -1/-1 counter, no getting around that unless you copy Tatterkite the second time around
MTG Rules Adviser/Advisor
Comp Rules, FAQs, and DCI Rules
This definitely is not what happens with the cards that you stated. The first time the Clone is sacrificed, it comes back with a -1/-1 counter. The second time it is sacrificed, it stays in the graveyard because Persist won't bring it back if it had a -1/-1 counter on it.
You could have just asked this as your initial question, it's far easier to answer than what you wrote in your first post.
MTG Rules Adviser/Advisor
Comp Rules, FAQs, and DCI Rules
what the guy playing the deck told me was since it copied a creature without a -1/-1 counter on it that it would get removed...now it makes sence. I will be sure to correct this guy as he's been winning alot of games at FNM off of this (we dont have a real judge)
You can show everybody the rule for Persist As well as the fact that having or not having counters on a permanent is not a copyable value
MTG Rules Adviser/Advisor
Comp Rules, FAQs, and DCI Rules