Personaly I would run a green splash for a discard theme (if you are looking for a splash) as it supports a plethora of very powerful creatures.
I am really interessted in the green splash. But i really don't understand, why this green versions run so many creatures.
I run a more controlish version with green splash.
I don't play Ritual, because it's bad with that many green spells. Also, i don't play Mox Diamond, because of the Deeds. There are no Hymn to Tourach, because i play 8 CC1 discard spells and recurring Raven's Crime seems more useful to me.
The high count of lands is a bit freaky, but i like it. Barrens Moor is a possible draw engine with Loam. I am really convinced about the cards, green offers...
1) Life from the Loam: Costs 1 Mana less compared to Crucible, resilient to countermagic or discard. Get cards into the GY with dredge for Tombstalker. Drawengine with Barren Moor. Can't be the target of Artifact/Permanent-Removal as Crucible gets. Makes every land to an "undiscovered paradise" and gives us lands for Retrace.
2) Pernicious Deed: Sweep the board. Doesn't affect Tombstalker or other cards i play. Slow and needs some Mana, while we often don't have more then three (because of Pox).
3) Maelstrom Pulse: Also slow, but it's an Nonland-Vindicate-EchoingTruth...
I have no focus on discard or manadenial, because i didn't ever managed to lock down an opponent out of game with the concentration on one aspect.
Recurring Raven's Crime is good against heacy Control or Combo, but in an Aggro/Control-dominated Meta, it's unnessesary.
Good old recurring Wasteland for manadenial hits some decks painful.
And the rest gets hurt with the removal (Deed+Pulse... and Pox/Smallpox)...
tl;dr
I play Bg-Pox without many creatures and with a focus on breaking Retrace. It's funny
I was very surprised to find that Mishra's Factory was selling for only $7 AUD each at the shop. I always thought that they were heaps expensive. Is there any real difference between using Mishra's Factory and Mutavault apart from the fact that Mutavault is currently ridiculously expensive?
I'm not entirely sure how the land setup will work. I suspect I need more Urborg, Tomb to Yawgmoth.
I'm not entirely sure how Funeral Charm works in the deck. I bought them because other people in this thread use it, but 'following the leader' without really understanding is usually a bad thing. I understand the instant discard part, but what use are the other options?
Finally, I'm stuck as to what cards to use to finish the deck. I'm thinking Crucible of Worlds to get that vital land recovery, but after that, there is still other things left to put in.
I have 4 Cursed Scroll handy, but the constant loss of land could interfere with using those to full effect. The Rack is an option. Chimeric Idol doesn't really play well with Mishra's Factory. Tangle Wire looks like another option, but I'm confused as to the sequence of its effects, and how to use it best.
A dumb question, but how do you cope with the massive life loss incurred on yourself when throwing Pox around? Theoretically, the opponent should not be able to come up with a lasting means of hurting you after having to pitch so many things, but theory doesn't always translate to reality in every situation.
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Perish
2 Infest
1 Extirpate
Necro
What's good about funeral charm? Seriously? Lets go through the list:
1cc instant speed hand disruption
1cc instant speed x/1 creature killer
1cc instant speed 2 extra damage for Stalker/Spirit/Idol
1cc instant speed swampwalk which combos with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I'd suggest losing the Dark Rituals. They're good in your opening hand and that's about it. Pox/Small Pox destroy your hand making a top decked ritual worse than drawing a land. The most expensive card in your deck is Crucible of Worlds (not counting the printed cost of tombstalker) your acceleration only helps for a small amount of time.
This thread (and the reason I got three pack-fresh 5th Edition Pox since 1997 :)) sparked my interest in the archetype quite a bit, and I'm in the process of building Crucible Pox.
What do you guys think about Zuran Orb as an additional outlet for recurring lands? Could work well with potential chump-blocking Mishra's Factories, too.
Another card I could envision having nice synergies with Pox et al. is Demigod of Revenge. It makes mutual, selected discard a lot more attractive. Five mana should be doable with Mox Diamond and recurring lands, the only problem I see is with colorless mana sources when there's no Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in sight.
This thread (and the reason I got three pack-fresh 5th Edition Pox since 1997 :)) sparked my interest in the archetype quite a bit, and I'm in the process of building Crucible Pox.
What do you guys think about Zuran Orb as an additional outlet for recurring lands? Could work well with potential chump-blocking Mishra's Factories, too.
Another card I could envision having nice synergies with Pox et al. is Demigod of Revenge. It makes mutual, selected discard a lot more attractive. Five mana should be doable with Mox Diamond and recurring lands, the only problem I see is with colorless mana sources when there's no Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in sight.
Demigod of Revenge shuts off Nether Spirit if you have any in the yard and I'd rather spend BBBBB and play a Pox and then a Tombstalker. It just seems like a win more card. If you have 5 mana if you rip Demigod or Tombstalker you're probably in good shape. It just seems like an expensive card that will get stuck in your hand more often than not.
...losing the Rituals sounds very meh to me, the first turn Duress Hymn action is was yo broken, so are many other things IMO
When Funeral Charm really is that good, what about cutting the Smothers for them???
What's the chance of first turn ritual, land, duress, hymn? Pretty insignificant. After first and second turn ritual isn't a very good card to draw. So even if you did get that in your opening hand if your opponent stablizes you're still drawing dead Rituals.
And yes funeral charm is very good in this deck. You should cut ritual for them.
okay, maybe if I cut Rituals, and play Charms (I will test and then post results)
does the rest of the list look good?
Looks good, I like innocent blood over smother since it's occ and even if you sac nether spirt you get it back. Does Powder keg seem to slow for you? It doesn't do anything the turn it comes out except destroy O casting cost things. I perfer to have all 4 poxes in the deck personally. I WANT to draw pox. I want to wreck my opponents hand, life, creatures and land as much as possible. Then I want to play Nether Spirt/Idol/Tombstalker/Factory and win the game. I've never been a fan of taking the Pox out of Pox
I play the Kegs for the reason, that your opponents sometimes do stupis things like double or triple Tarmogoyf, and I can't handle them, same goes for shroud
I don't play Innocent Blood because often I need to handle something like a Goyf, and only have Stalker as a creature, so it would be an disadvantage to play Blood here
Funeral charm is the swiss army knife of pox. it has plenty of neat tricks with those 3 abilities...dark rit. is horrible in pox what do you accelerate into? Nothing costs more than 3 mana in the deck except tangle wire perhaps and ritual is a horrible topdeck and I would rather run basic land because you can use them with retrace whereas you can't do anything with dark rit it sits in your hand waiting to be discarded to a pox effect
Also powder keg destroys dredge if that is rampant in your meta game 1 too...getting it on the board is good game all the way
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Funeral charm is the swiss army knife of pox. it has plenty of neat tricks with those 3 abilities...dark rit. is horrible in pox what do you accelerate into? Nothing costs more than 3 mana in the deck except tangle wire perhaps and ritual is a horrible topdeck and I would rather run basic land because you can use them with retrace whereas you can't do anything with dark rit it sits in your hand waiting to be discarded to a pox effect
that's pretty much hitting the nail on the head. the only explosive start you can have w/ pox and dark rit is to go turn one swamp, rit, thoughtseize/duress, hymn. other than that, dark rit's probably a dead card in your hand even on turn one. pox is in it for the long game, so there's really no need for you to try to come out swinging like that. turn one duress/thoughtseize into turn two hymn into turn three pox is sufficient enough.
Great, great primer - first off...very nice job. I've been a long time follower of the Pox and Vaka Pox threads over at the Source for a long time and although those have a ton of great material in them, I think the primer portion here is the best I have seen that I can recall. It's very thourough!
I've attempted Pox in the past, although only in MTGO's Classic format - not in Legacy proper. So, I understand that the Classic vs. Legacy gap poses some translation issues in any understanding of this discussion, but I'm prepared to deal with that. That said, what about:
Bitterblossom. I've never really found a truly definitive resolution to the notion of using BB in Pox. Lots of debate here and there, but none of it particularly helpful. I'm seriously considering springing for a playset, but before I do, I wonder if anyone that has done some more extensive testing might have any wisdom on this.
I'm thinking of a crucible build that uses Tombstalker, Bitterblossom and Factory/Mutavault as the win conditions. And a couple copies of either Syphon Life or Zuran Orb to offset BB's lifeloss, in the late game.
It seems to me that BB could be the perfect complement to Pox. It's hard to remove, comes down fast, survives Pox, Smallpox, Innocent Blood, creates fodder that can be used to save an active Tombstalker from a pox-effect, creates blockers, provides an endless army of evasive threats. What's not to like? Well...loss of life in an already life-loss heavy deck, namely. So, I figure abusing Crucible with some type life gain effect might be just the solution.
Any suggestions? I am not sure on the Tomb of urami -- needing 5 lands to activate is difficult; and I am also unsure on numbers of chimeric idol & the rack and whatnot.
Syphon life is pretty nasty though.
Any suggestions? I am not sure on the Tomb of urami -- needing 5 lands to activate is difficult; and I am also unsure on numbers of chimeric idol & the rack and whatnot.
Syphon life is pretty nasty though.
i really like tomb of urami in my build, but i'm running crucible of worlds. since you're not running that, i don't think tomb of urami is worth it. you may get a 5/5 dude, but if your opponent answers it, you just lost all your lands for nothing.
i really like tomb of urami in my build, but i'm running crucible of worlds. since you're not running that, i don't think tomb of urami is worth it. you may get a 5/5 dude, but if your opponent answers it, you just lost all your lands for nothing.
I like tomb of urami. Especially alongside tombstalker getting 2 removal spells is hardly likely. Of course you can sideboard it out games 2 and 3 against humility like decks or if they have stifle because having it stifled is hard to recover from unless you have other mana artifacts in play (borderposts or diamond)
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I'm just wondering how to fill out the remaining five slots. I didn't manage to find The Rack yesterday, but how would Cursed Scroll go?
scroll is a good card, but i wouldn't run more than two copies. it's really not something you want to see early game. but also on that same note, another card that you might want to consider would be tangle wire. tangle wire makes early scrolls not as bad because you can tap them down to the wire. that would be my suggestion. although you could also consider damnation and/or smokestack as very viable options. smokestack + crucible is good. smokestack + nether spirit is good.
This is my list that I'm currently running, opinions and suggestions wanted.
your list looks pretty standard, but i'm a bit confused by the borderposts in a mono black build. i assume they serve basically the same purpose that mox diamond does. ie: they don't die to pox so you have mana afterword. how are they working out for you?
I just proxied the deck up and am going to post my list right now it is a combination of crucible and contamination pox; I really like contamination in my meta game it's great against thresh and pretty good against aggro loam which are the 2 decks which are the most played in my meta
To this. It's not a big improvement but let me know what you think. I still haven't decided if i want to remove a cursed scroll and nether spirit or not I don't usually like running less than 4 of something (unless of course I don't have 4). I don't think only 14 swamp will be a problem but that's mainly what i was wanting some response to.
I run a more controlish version with green splash.
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Bayou
3 Barren Moor
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
4 Tombstalker
//enchantment
4 Pernicious Deed
//sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Raven's Crime
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Syphon Life
The high count of lands is a bit freaky, but i like it. Barrens Moor is a possible draw engine with Loam. I am really convinced about the cards, green offers...
1) Life from the Loam: Costs 1 Mana less compared to Crucible, resilient to countermagic or discard. Get cards into the GY with dredge for Tombstalker. Drawengine with Barren Moor. Can't be the target of Artifact/Permanent-Removal as Crucible gets. Makes every land to an "undiscovered paradise" and gives us lands for Retrace.
2) Pernicious Deed: Sweep the board. Doesn't affect Tombstalker or other cards i play. Slow and needs some Mana, while we often don't have more then three (because of Pox).
3) Maelstrom Pulse: Also slow, but it's an Nonland-Vindicate-EchoingTruth...
I have no focus on discard or manadenial, because i didn't ever managed to lock down an opponent out of game with the concentration on one aspect.
Recurring Raven's Crime is good against heacy Control or Combo, but in an Aggro/Control-dominated Meta, it's unnessesary.
Good old recurring Wasteland for manadenial hits some decks painful.
And the rest gets hurt with the removal (Deed+Pulse... and Pox/Smallpox)...
tl;dr
I play Bg-Pox without many creatures and with a focus on breaking Retrace. It's funny
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Nether Spirit
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Funeral Charm
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
I was very surprised to find that Mishra's Factory was selling for only $7 AUD each at the shop. I always thought that they were heaps expensive. Is there any real difference between using Mishra's Factory and Mutavault apart from the fact that Mutavault is currently ridiculously expensive?
I'm not entirely sure how the land setup will work. I suspect I need more Urborg, Tomb to Yawgmoth.
I'm not entirely sure how Funeral Charm works in the deck. I bought them because other people in this thread use it, but 'following the leader' without really understanding is usually a bad thing. I understand the instant discard part, but what use are the other options?
Finally, I'm stuck as to what cards to use to finish the deck. I'm thinking Crucible of Worlds to get that vital land recovery, but after that, there is still other things left to put in.
I have 4 Cursed Scroll handy, but the constant loss of land could interfere with using those to full effect. The Rack is an option. Chimeric Idol doesn't really play well with Mishra's Factory. Tangle Wire looks like another option, but I'm confused as to the sequence of its effects, and how to use it best.
A dumb question, but how do you cope with the massive life loss incurred on yourself when throwing Pox around? Theoretically, the opponent should not be able to come up with a lasting means of hurting you after having to pitch so many things, but theory doesn't always translate to reality in every situation.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
My list looks the following:
10 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Cabal Pit
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smother
4 Smallpox
3 Extirpate
2 Pox
3 Powder Keg
2 Crucible of Worlds
SB///
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Perish
2 Infest
1 Extirpate
Necro
What's good about funeral charm? Seriously? Lets go through the list:
1cc instant speed hand disruption
1cc instant speed x/1 creature killer
1cc instant speed 2 extra damage for Stalker/Spirit/Idol
1cc instant speed swampwalk which combos with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I'd suggest losing the Dark Rituals. They're good in your opening hand and that's about it. Pox/Small Pox destroy your hand making a top decked ritual worse than drawing a land. The most expensive card in your deck is Crucible of Worlds (not counting the printed cost of tombstalker) your acceleration only helps for a small amount of time.
What do you guys think about Zuran Orb as an additional outlet for recurring lands? Could work well with potential chump-blocking Mishra's Factories, too.
Another card I could envision having nice synergies with Pox et al. is Demigod of Revenge. It makes mutual, selected discard a lot more attractive. Five mana should be doable with Mox Diamond and recurring lands, the only problem I see is with colorless mana sources when there's no Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in sight.
Demigod of Revenge shuts off Nether Spirit if you have any in the yard and I'd rather spend BBBBB and play a Pox and then a Tombstalker. It just seems like a win more card. If you have 5 mana if you rip Demigod or Tombstalker you're probably in good shape. It just seems like an expensive card that will get stuck in your hand more often than not.
When Funeral Charm really is that good, what about cutting the Smothers for them???
What's the chance of first turn ritual, land, duress, hymn? Pretty insignificant. After first and second turn ritual isn't a very good card to draw. So even if you did get that in your opening hand if your opponent stablizes you're still drawing dead Rituals.
And yes funeral charm is very good in this deck. You should cut ritual for them.
does the rest of the list look good?
Looks good, I like innocent blood over smother since it's occ and even if you sac nether spirt you get it back. Does Powder keg seem to slow for you? It doesn't do anything the turn it comes out except destroy O casting cost things. I perfer to have all 4 poxes in the deck personally. I WANT to draw pox. I want to wreck my opponents hand, life, creatures and land as much as possible. Then I want to play Nether Spirt/Idol/Tombstalker/Factory and win the game. I've never been a fan of taking the Pox out of Pox
I don't play Innocent Blood because often I need to handle something like a Goyf, and only have Stalker as a creature, so it would be an disadvantage to play Blood here
Also powder keg destroys dredge if that is rampant in your meta game 1 too...getting it on the board is good game all the way
Currently Playing:
Retired
that's pretty much hitting the nail on the head. the only explosive start you can have w/ pox and dark rit is to go turn one swamp, rit, thoughtseize/duress, hymn. other than that, dark rit's probably a dead card in your hand even on turn one. pox is in it for the long game, so there's really no need for you to try to come out swinging like that. turn one duress/thoughtseize into turn two hymn into turn three pox is sufficient enough.
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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are 3 Charms enough, or needs the deck the whole playset???
I've attempted Pox in the past, although only in MTGO's Classic format - not in Legacy proper. So, I understand that the Classic vs. Legacy gap poses some translation issues in any understanding of this discussion, but I'm prepared to deal with that. That said, what about:
Bitterblossom. I've never really found a truly definitive resolution to the notion of using BB in Pox. Lots of debate here and there, but none of it particularly helpful. I'm seriously considering springing for a playset, but before I do, I wonder if anyone that has done some more extensive testing might have any wisdom on this.
I'm thinking of a crucible build that uses Tombstalker, Bitterblossom and Factory/Mutavault as the win conditions. And a couple copies of either Syphon Life or Zuran Orb to offset BB's lifeloss, in the late game.
It seems to me that BB could be the perfect complement to Pox. It's hard to remove, comes down fast, survives Pox, Smallpox, Innocent Blood, creates fodder that can be used to save an active Tombstalker from a pox-effect, creates blockers, provides an endless army of evasive threats. What's not to like? Well...loss of life in an already life-loss heavy deck, namely. So, I figure abusing Crucible with some type life gain effect might be just the solution.
Thoughts?
1 tomb of urami
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Tombstalker
2 Nether Sprit
4 the rack
4 chimeric idol
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Duress
4 funeral charm
2 Ravens crime
1 Syphon life
Any suggestions? I am not sure on the Tomb of urami -- needing 5 lands to activate is difficult; and I am also unsure on numbers of chimeric idol & the rack and whatnot.
Syphon life is pretty nasty though.
i really like tomb of urami in my build, but i'm running crucible of worlds. since you're not running that, i don't think tomb of urami is worth it. you may get a 5/5 dude, but if your opponent answers it, you just lost all your lands for nothing.
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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seems wise. Stifle would be just mean
Currently Playing:
Retired
After a trip to the shop yesterday to get Crucible of Worlds and more copies of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, my deck now looks like this:
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Nether Spirit
4 Duress
4 Funeral Charm
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Crucible of Worlds
I'm just wondering how to fill out the remaining five slots. I didn't manage to find The Rack yesterday, but how would Cursed Scroll go?
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
4 Mistvein Borderpost
3 Tangle Wire
4 Veinfire Borderpost
2 Tombstalker
4 Funeral Charm
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
14 Swamp
Experimental Kraj
scroll is a good card, but i wouldn't run more than two copies. it's really not something you want to see early game. but also on that same note, another card that you might want to consider would be tangle wire. tangle wire makes early scrolls not as bad because you can tap them down to the wire. that would be my suggestion. although you could also consider damnation and/or smokestack as very viable options. smokestack + crucible is good. smokestack + nether spirit is good.
your list looks pretty standard, but i'm a bit confused by the borderposts in a mono black build. i assume they serve basically the same purpose that mox diamond does. ie: they don't die to pox so you have mana afterword. how are they working out for you?
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Here's my list:
4x Bitterblossom
2x Nether Spirit
2x Nihilith
Discard 13
2x Raven's Crime
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
3x Funeral Charm
Tools 15
4x Contamination
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Pox
4x Smallpox
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Tomb of Urami
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Cabal Pit
13x Swamp
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Powder Keg
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Nyxathid
3x Tangle Wire
Currently Playing:
Retired
Experimental Kraj
To this. It's not a big improvement but let me know what you think. I still haven't decided if i want to remove a cursed scroll and nether spirit or not I don't usually like running less than 4 of something (unless of course I don't have 4). I don't think only 14 swamp will be a problem but that's mainly what i was wanting some response to.
14 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
Spells
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Phyrexian Totem
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures
4 Nether Spirit
"Insanity is knowing that what you're doing is completely idiotic, but still, somehow, you just can't stop it."