So i'm sure this is being argued in 10 other threads but i wanted to try to localize it into one. My main question here, is the effect "Destroy all creatures, they can't be regenerated". What color pie does it fit in?
I want to hear any opinions at all on it, personal i think its white. Must prevent the opponent from winning at all costs, sacrificing short term for long term. Black seems more like a, we win now, the opponent must lose now, kind of color.
Any opinions?
Wrath is a relic of old design ideas only clung to to prop up what was for a long time the weakest colour.
White in the current type 2 format does NOT need wrath of god and the game in general could stand to lose it. Damnation? Yeah for sure! Black is all about that, cutting off it's nose to spite it's face. Paying life and creatures to achieve it's ends.
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arsenick_wrath once said:
Do we actually know that?... I haven't read that anywhere.
...people on the speculation forums tend to know a lot of things that never actually happened/end up happening.
I seem to remember an old design article saying that White's color pie allows it to level the playing field without prejudice, i.e. Armageddon, Wrath, Balance (well...), whereas Black can single out a creature and kill it, while Red can single out a land and kill it, while Blue can single out a spell and kill it, and Green just basically sucked back then. Based on that color pie, Wrath can only ever be white. Damnation was a fun experiment, but I think Wrath stays in M10 because it's tremendously iconic and is an instant "WOW" card for any new player, as well as being a teaching tool about symmetrical effects. I mean "Wrath of GOD." Even Raiders of the Lost Ark mentioned the concept. Everyone's heard of it. Damnation is just another Opeth album.
I seem to remember an old design article saying that White's color pie allows it to level the playing field without prejudice, i.e. Armageddon, Wrath, Balance (well...), whereas Black can single out a creature and kill it, while Red can single out a land and kill it, while Blue can single out a spell and kill it, and Green just basically sucked back then. Based on that color pie, Wrath can only ever be white. Damnation was a fun experiment, but I think Wrath stays in M10 because it's tremendously iconic and is an instant "WOW" card for any new player, as well as being a teaching tool about symmetrical effects. I mean "Wrath of GOD." Even Raiders of the Lost Ark mentioned the concept. Everyone's heard of it. Damnation is just another Opeth album.
Just pointing out a few things that've been gone over A LOT in the M10 discussion threads.
M10 is not designed for the following purposes:
Recruiting new players
Teaching people the basics of Magic the Gathering
Keeping up with old ideas concerning colour pie.
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arsenick_wrath once said:
Do we actually know that?... I haven't read that anywhere.
...people on the speculation forums tend to know a lot of things that never actually happened/end up happening.
Honestly, I have to side with Damnation. The wrath concept is fine in white, but I want it worded like Final Judgement or Hallowed Burial. Black gets destroy, red uses straight up damage, and white removes creatures from play without destroying them.
As for Wrath being an instant WOW for new players, it's not. It looks like unplayable **** to most new players. I've even gotten laughed at by serveral of them for playing Infest, Jund Charm, and Volcanic Fallout in Alara Limited. It's a card for hardcore tournament players that's frequently been paired with a fistful of counterspells. Yeah, WU counter control is the archetype that represents noob deck.dec, right up there with land destruction.
So i'm sure this is being argued in 10 other threads but i wanted to try to localize it into one. My main question here, is the effect "Destroy all creatures, they can't be regenerated". What color pie does it fit in?
It fits in at least Red-White.
That's Red+White, you understand.
C'mon, just look at this:
Wrath of Ackbar 2RW
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated.
Here's how we break it down: Burn everything for 3. Destroy everything with power 4 or greater. Then switch their powers and toughnesses. And creatures dealt damage this way can't be regenerated this turn.
. . . This is for those who actually accept these kinds of reasons. I don't put much stock in them myself, although it is kind of interesting that I can write the above. Put aside how the rules make the timing of this effect different.
Now according to Lightning Helix - and an offhand comment by Rosewater that almost legitimizes this - the preceding could mean Damnation is right. I find that funny.
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I truely believe that Damnation is a better fit to it's respective color than Wrath is. I also firmly believe that right now White has TOO MUCH effiecent removal and black is seriously suffering from what white suffered from last year... the fact that black is only used right now as a "splash" color.
Give black Damnation and take away Wrath and watch the game rebalance itself.
The effect fits in both colors equally in terms of flavor. (I'll enumerate on this later if need be.)
I'd love to see a yearly rotation between the two. Since the core-set will be rotating more frequently, One year dominated by damnation, one year dominated by Wrath, and three months with both in the format could be kind of fun. Outside of tradition, there's no reason to privilege Wrath over Damnation or vice versa. Flavor is secondary to mechanics for most games, magic really hasn't been much different (Multi-color is an example of this, sometimes things are multicolor for the sake of multi-color, without actually exhibiting both colors evenly or at all).
However, I think it's funny that Wrath and Damnation are just outclassed in the current format. With the explosion of Token decks and fast aggro, instant speed damage based sweep like cloudthresher and Volcanic Fallout are the bar precisely because the aggro player can stabilize quickly enough to mitigate a sorcery speed sweep's impact.
It fits in either color perfectly. Black is all about "Victory, at any cost". Killing off all of your own puny minions is perfectly acceptable for a black planeswalker, as long as those opposing you die in the process. White is all about "upholding the greater good". All of the valiant soldiers in the employ of a white planeswalker would willingly give their lives to put a stop to the evil forces that threaten their cause.
Mechanically, white is allowed globally destructive effects for the sake of balancing the playing field, and black is allowed powerful effects at agressive costs, as long as there are additional drawbacks tied to them. While Wrath may have been exclusively white in the archaec (sp?), unneccisarily rigid pie. But in the newer, more accepting pie, it works perfectly for black as well, which is why we were able to see it in Planar Chaos. Those color shifted cards were all things that had originally been exclusive to another color, but that WotC felt should have been able to fit into the color they changed it to.
However, I don't think black is going to get Damnation back, because despite some of the insane recent changes of late (*cough*Path to Exile*cough*) Black still has the best removal package, and giving the best removal package AND the best mass removal spell in the game to the same color is just not a great idea. That's not to say I don't wish Damnation would take Wrath's place... I'm a "true blue" (or... "true black", I guess) black player, and Damnation was like a dream come true for me. But even I have to admit, it probably won't come true again for quite some time.
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"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
there is almost a 0% chance of damnation to be ever reprinted till they make another block like time spiral. damnation make black over powering because it lets them control the early game with terror and other single removal and then late game wipe the board and win. White needs it on some level other then to just win because it help them rest the board so that they can make an army while when they get screwed on the draw. black has many good big guys so that they could win that much easier. Wrath of God doesn't create win cons damnation dose
Instead of getting into the large argument at hand i shall simply state my view.
Flavorly they both do indeed fi the color pie, if you don't know why... well read the thread, it's been mentioned all over the place. Mechanically I would see black holding the cards here (no pun intended). Wrath of God is (to me) the only non-conditional mass removal white has ever seemed to ahve, barring Armageddon, but that's a whole nother tale.
So yes, while I doubt Damnation would ever return, I would like to see a cheap black Damnationesque card if not Damnation itself.
I am certain that Wrath will be reprinted in M10. However I have heard from a judge where I play FNM, that both Wrath of GodANDDamnation will be in M10! I am still really skeptical about it but I do agree that black does need more power right now in standard.
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a small sentence for you to read while you ignore my post.
Instead of getting into the large argument at hand i shall simply state my view.
Flavorly they both do indeed fi the color pie, if you don't know why... well read the thread, it's been mentioned all over the place. Mechanically I would see black holding the cards here (no pun intended). Wrath of God is (to me) the only non-conditional mass removal white has ever seemed to ahve, barring Armageddon, but that's a whole nother tale.
So yes, while I doubt Damnation would ever return, I would like to see a cheap black Damnationesque card if not Damnation itself.
Wrath is hardly the only non-conditional mass removal spell in white. Just recently, we have Martial Coup, Hallowed Burial, Austere Command, just to name a few. The ONLY other black mass removal spell I can think of is Decree of Pain.
Damnation was printed in a gimmick set, where everything went to the wrong part of the color pie (see Akroma, Angel of Fury and Gaea's Anthem for 2 more White slice ripoffs). I don't understand why anyone actually thinks it belongs as a permanent black effect.
Honestly, I have to side with Damnation. The wrath concept is fine in white, but I want it worded like Final Judgement or Hallowed Burial. Black gets destroy, red uses straight up damage, and white removes creatures from play without destroying them.
As for Wrath being an instant WOW for new players, it's not. It looks like unplayable **** to most new players. I've even gotten laughed at by serveral of them for playing Infest, Jund Charm, and Volcanic Fallout in Alara Limited. It's a card for hardcore tournament players that's frequently been paired with a fistful of counterspells. Yeah, WU counter control is the archetype that represents noob deck.dec, right up there with land destruction.
This I agree with. Normally I'd say Wrath should stay as a crutch for white to stay decent but white has been getting a lot of power boosts (PtE, Lark, O-ring, FoD (I know its half white), and such) and black is really a weaker color right now (funny because BB is monoblack an considered one of the best cards in standard). Damnation should be the new *** and reserved for black as the "destroy creatures" color, white should go into "Remove Creatures" and honestly reprinting Final Judgement wouldn't be a bad idea.
I'm not against the idea of having *** come back, that just means WotC wants to keep a classic in the set. If they reprint Damnation that would be an interesting call and it could mean black is getting good again, while white becomes better through other sets.
there is almost a 0% chance of damnation to be ever reprinted till they make another block like time spiral. damnation make black over powering because it lets them control the early game with terror and other single removal and then late game wipe the board and win. White needs it on some level other then to just win because it help them rest the board so that they can make an army while when they get screwed on the draw. black has many good big guys so that they could win that much easier. Wrath of God doesn't create win cons damnation dose
I disagree with the notion of balance being mechanically disrupted because Damnation is in the format. I personally think the mass removal is more a flavor question than one of "mechanical balance"
Currently, White has some very solid pinpoint removal with Path and O-ring, and it has some solid creatures and spells that it could use as win conditions (The Angel with Exalted, Martial Coup, Elspeth, Several of the White Demigods) and yet the situation you mentioned has not occurred.
@ KPDaly16: People want Damnation back because they enjoyed playing with it. Also, there is precedence for a Planar Chaos card become core-setified in Prodigal Pyromancer. Some people argue for Damnation in the core-set either because of color bias, perceived balancing of the game, or flavor. All arguments that apply to damnation's inclusion in the core set cross-apply to Wrath as well, so it ultimately comes down to personal preference.
Well, I agree that *** is an iconic card, and in flavor from a balancing the equation standpoint. I've always felt that it should have been black however, and Damnation is my favorite card from the entire block. That said, i find it more likely that we'll see Mutilate again before damnation *sob*
A lot of solid arguments, i standby my *** point though. White just seems to be the color that demands order, balance, and systematic even wiping. White has no unconditional targeting removal.
O-ring can be destroyed to get the card back, PtE allows for a basic land (very bad early game to leave your opponent a land/turn ahead in tempo).
The only unconditional remover i see is unmake, which is also black.
Black has a TON of unconditional targeted removal (ignoring the non-black, non artifact clauses). I don't see damnation in black's color pie without being bumped to 6 mana and having an effect. Black seems to be about gaining advantage through loss, more like 2BB all creatures get -4/-4 until end of turn. which makes perfect sense to me. I don't think unconditional removal at such a low cost makes sense, a black plansewalker would wait to achieve a large amount of mana and enjoy seeing everything rot to death on the playing field after he uses it.
It just feels like a white effect at cheap costs, black should have it but at more cost then white. hmm...
I am certain that Wrath will be reprinted in M10. However I have heard from a judge where I play FNM, that both Wrath of GodANDDamnation will be in M10! I am still really skeptical about it but I do agree that black does need more power right now in standard.
Hmm... This would be very interesting... I'm also EXTREMELY skeptical, but I would be perfectly happy if this was what happened. The cards do compliment eachother's flavors very well... Still, that would allow for some seriously cheesy black/white decks that just shut down all creatures. I mean, PtE, Terror, ***, Damnation... and those are only the standards; there would be plenty of others available...
Honestly though, it seems petty unlikely. I mean, honestly, not many people would be playing Wrath with Damnation available (unless they were running the afformentioned cheesy deck). Wrath hardly ever saw play while Time Spiral was in standard, because it's so much more powerful of an effect in black, and you generally don't need more than 4 copies.
I will put farward this argument for damnation replacing black though. (I know it's probably only justification of my wishful thinking. But I'll say it anyway).
We NEED to keep Wrath because: A decent aggro deck can eaisily deal 20 damage by turn 4 if left unhindered. Without a turn 4 sweeper in standard, control and combo stragegies will become dramatically less viable.
We CAN'T keep Wrath because: There is no design space left for board sweepers with Wrath in standard. No self-respecting compettitive player is going to use Martial Coup when Wrath gets rid of the creatures 3 turns sooner. Basically, the same reason Counterspell stopped getting reprinted.
Damnation fixes both of these problems! Standard still has a turn 4 spell that clears the board, and suddenly players have to make a choice between playing the quirky variants, or splashing another color. In addition, this solves the recent problem of white being in EVERY SINGLE COMPETTITIVE DECK (except fae... But they're tribal and therfore don't count) because it's gotten too good, and gives black the edge that it lost, since white seems to have stolen its "creature removal" slice of the color pie.
Ok, maybe a slightly biased argument. I love black, and I'm sick of white stepping on its toes. So sue me. But color favoritism asside, it can't be denied that Damnation allows us to have our cake Wrath and eat rotate it too.
I still doubt Damnation is coming back... But I can at least pretend it's a possibility... Don't crush my dreams!
Edit: Not part of the initial argument, but I didn't want to double post.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Wrath is hardly the only non-conditional mass removal spell in white. Just recently, we have Martial Coup, Hallowed Burial, Austere Command, just to name a few. The ONLY other black mass removal spell I can think of is Decree of Pain.
Hallowed Burial puts them all on the Bottom, that's conditional. Austre Command forces a choice of two, conditional.
Damnation was printed in a gimmick set, where everything went to the wrong part of the color pie (see Akroma, Angel of Fury and Gaea's Anthem for 2 more White slice ripoffs). I don't understand why anyone actually thinks it belongs as a permanent black effect.
Planar Chaos is one of my all time favorite sets. I know for a fact that it was never meant to permantly change the pie. I know that all the cards in it were changed for flavor reasons purely, blah, blah blah. I never said i wanted it to come back, i said i wanted something like it to come back.
It would be pretty crazy if they made something like...
Damnation of God
2:symwb::symwb:
Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated. Who ever said R&D was smart?
Man that would be amazing... though it would make Damnation and Wrath of God worth close to nothing.
AWESOME idea!!! Too bad it would never happen lol.
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perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
— Szadek
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I want to hear any opinions at all on it, personal i think its white. Must prevent the opponent from winning at all costs, sacrificing short term for long term. Black seems more like a, we win now, the opponent must lose now, kind of color.
Any opinions?
Meh, I don't really play standard anymore, so I don't care all that much which one they reprint.
White in the current type 2 format does NOT need wrath of god and the game in general could stand to lose it. Damnation? Yeah for sure! Black is all about that, cutting off it's nose to spite it's face. Paying life and creatures to achieve it's ends.
Just pointing out a few things that've been gone over A LOT in the M10 discussion threads.
M10 is not designed for the following purposes:
As for Wrath being an instant WOW for new players, it's not. It looks like unplayable **** to most new players. I've even gotten laughed at by serveral of them for playing Infest, Jund Charm, and Volcanic Fallout in Alara Limited. It's a card for hardcore tournament players that's frequently been paired with a fistful of counterspells. Yeah, WU counter control is the archetype that represents noob deck.dec, right up there with land destruction.
The same block that brought the gimmick Damnation also brought us Magus of the Disk.
And the next few sets bring us....
If WotC had any intention of sliding the effect over maybe they should have printed some of those in black.
It fits in at least Red-White.
That's Red+White, you understand.
C'mon, just look at this:
Here's how we break it down: Burn everything for 3. Destroy everything with power 4 or greater. Then switch their powers and toughnesses. And creatures dealt damage this way can't be regenerated this turn.
. . . This is for those who actually accept these kinds of reasons. I don't put much stock in them myself, although it is kind of interesting that I can write the above. Put aside how the rules make the timing of this effect different.
Now according to Lightning Helix - and an offhand comment by Rosewater that almost legitimizes this - the preceding could mean Damnation is right. I find that funny.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Give black Damnation and take away Wrath and watch the game rebalance itself.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
I'd love to see a yearly rotation between the two. Since the core-set will be rotating more frequently, One year dominated by damnation, one year dominated by Wrath, and three months with both in the format could be kind of fun. Outside of tradition, there's no reason to privilege Wrath over Damnation or vice versa. Flavor is secondary to mechanics for most games, magic really hasn't been much different (Multi-color is an example of this, sometimes things are multicolor for the sake of multi-color, without actually exhibiting both colors evenly or at all).
However, I think it's funny that Wrath and Damnation are just outclassed in the current format. With the explosion of Token decks and fast aggro, instant speed damage based sweep like cloudthresher and Volcanic Fallout are the bar precisely because the aggro player can stabilize quickly enough to mitigate a sorcery speed sweep's impact.
Mechanically, white is allowed globally destructive effects for the sake of balancing the playing field, and black is allowed powerful effects at agressive costs, as long as there are additional drawbacks tied to them. While Wrath may have been exclusively white in the archaec (sp?), unneccisarily rigid pie. But in the newer, more accepting pie, it works perfectly for black as well, which is why we were able to see it in Planar Chaos. Those color shifted cards were all things that had originally been exclusive to another color, but that WotC felt should have been able to fit into the color they changed it to.
However, I don't think black is going to get Damnation back, because despite some of the
insanerecent changes of late (*cough*Path to Exile*cough*) Black still has the best removal package, and giving the best removal package AND the best mass removal spell in the game to the same color is just not a great idea. That's not to say I don't wish Damnation would take Wrath's place... I'm a "true blue" (or... "true black", I guess) black player, and Damnation was like a dream come true for me. But even I have to admit, it probably won't come true again for quite some time."I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Flavorly they both do indeed fi the color pie, if you don't know why... well read the thread, it's been mentioned all over the place. Mechanically I would see black holding the cards here (no pun intended). Wrath of God is (to me) the only non-conditional mass removal white has ever seemed to ahve, barring Armageddon, but that's a whole nother tale.
So yes, while I doubt Damnation would ever return, I would like to see a cheap black Damnationesque card if not Damnation itself.
Wrath is hardly the only non-conditional mass removal spell in white. Just recently, we have Martial Coup, Hallowed Burial, Austere Command, just to name a few. The ONLY other black mass removal spell I can think of is Decree of Pain.
Damnation was printed in a gimmick set, where everything went to the wrong part of the color pie (see Akroma, Angel of Fury and Gaea's Anthem for 2 more White slice ripoffs). I don't understand why anyone actually thinks it belongs as a permanent black effect.
This I agree with. Normally I'd say Wrath should stay as a crutch for white to stay decent but white has been getting a lot of power boosts (PtE, Lark, O-ring, FoD (I know its half white), and such) and black is really a weaker color right now (funny because BB is monoblack an considered one of the best cards in standard). Damnation should be the new *** and reserved for black as the "destroy creatures" color, white should go into "Remove Creatures" and honestly reprinting Final Judgement wouldn't be a bad idea.
I'm not against the idea of having *** come back, that just means WotC wants to keep a classic in the set. If they reprint Damnation that would be an interesting call and it could mean black is getting good again, while white becomes better through other sets.
There was once [The Pack], but no more.
I disagree with the notion of balance being mechanically disrupted because Damnation is in the format. I personally think the mass removal is more a flavor question than one of "mechanical balance"
Currently, White has some very solid pinpoint removal with Path and O-ring, and it has some solid creatures and spells that it could use as win conditions (The Angel with Exalted, Martial Coup, Elspeth, Several of the White Demigods) and yet the situation you mentioned has not occurred.
@ KPDaly16: People want Damnation back because they enjoyed playing with it. Also, there is precedence for a Planar Chaos card become core-setified in Prodigal Pyromancer. Some people argue for Damnation in the core-set either because of color bias, perceived balancing of the game, or flavor. All arguments that apply to damnation's inclusion in the core set cross-apply to Wrath as well, so it ultimately comes down to personal preference.
White/Black Wrath 2WB
Destroy all creatures. They cant be regenerated.
O-ring can be destroyed to get the card back, PtE allows for a basic land (very bad early game to leave your opponent a land/turn ahead in tempo).
The only unconditional remover i see is unmake, which is also black.
Black has a TON of unconditional targeted removal (ignoring the non-black, non artifact clauses). I don't see damnation in black's color pie without being bumped to 6 mana and having an effect. Black seems to be about gaining advantage through loss, more like 2BB all creatures get -4/-4 until end of turn. which makes perfect sense to me. I don't think unconditional removal at such a low cost makes sense, a black plansewalker would wait to achieve a large amount of mana and enjoy seeing everything rot to death on the playing field after he uses it.
It just feels like a white effect at cheap costs, black should have it but at more cost then white. hmm...
Hmm... This would be very interesting... I'm also EXTREMELY skeptical, but I would be perfectly happy if this was what happened. The cards do compliment eachother's flavors very well... Still, that would allow for some seriously cheesy black/white decks that just shut down all creatures. I mean, PtE, Terror, ***, Damnation... and those are only the standards; there would be plenty of others available...
Honestly though, it seems petty unlikely. I mean, honestly, not many people would be playing Wrath with Damnation available (unless they were running the afformentioned cheesy deck). Wrath hardly ever saw play while Time Spiral was in standard, because it's so much more powerful of an effect in black, and you generally don't need more than 4 copies.
I will put farward this argument for damnation replacing black though. (I know it's probably only justification of my wishful thinking. But I'll say it anyway).
We NEED to keep Wrath because: A decent aggro deck can eaisily deal 20 damage by turn 4 if left unhindered. Without a turn 4 sweeper in standard, control and combo stragegies will become dramatically less viable.
We CAN'T keep Wrath because: There is no design space left for board sweepers with Wrath in standard. No self-respecting compettitive player is going to use Martial Coup when Wrath gets rid of the creatures 3 turns sooner. Basically, the same reason Counterspell stopped getting reprinted.
Damnation fixes both of these problems! Standard still has a turn 4 spell that clears the board, and suddenly players have to make a choice between playing the quirky variants, or splashing another color. In addition, this solves the recent problem of white being in EVERY SINGLE COMPETTITIVE DECK (except fae... But they're tribal and therfore don't count) because it's gotten too good, and gives black the edge that it lost, since white seems to have stolen its "creature removal" slice of the color pie.
Ok, maybe a slightly biased argument. I love black, and I'm sick of white stepping on its toes. So sue me. But color favoritism asside, it can't be denied that Damnation allows us to have our
cakeWrath andeatrotate it too.I still doubt Damnation is coming back... But I can at least pretend it's a possibility... Don't crush my dreams!
Edit: Not part of the initial argument, but I didn't want to double post.
Then it's not really unconditional, is it?
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Hallowed Burial puts them all on the Bottom, that's conditional. Austre Command forces a choice of two, conditional.
Planar Chaos is one of my all time favorite sets. I know for a fact that it was never meant to permantly change the pie. I know that all the cards in it were changed for flavor reasons purely, blah, blah blah. I never said i wanted it to come back, i said i wanted something like it to come back.
Damnation of God
2:symwb::symwb:
Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated.
Who ever said R&D was smart?
Man that would be amazing... though it would make Damnation and Wrath of God worth close to nothing.
:symb:MBC:symb: (thank god!)
Legacy:
:symg::symu:Florida Survival:symu::symg:
Looking for play test group in Jacksonville, FL area please PM if interested.
AWESOME idea!!! Too bad it would never happen lol.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."