The old thread went past the 150 posts mark I talked about, so here's the new one.
#5) [thread=12215][Ivory Tower]: Stylistically Singular[/thread]
#4) [thread=8781][Ivory Tower] was a book before it was a movie.[/thread]
#3) [thread=5600][Ivory Tower] on a Hill[/thread]
#2) [thread=2560][Ivory Tower] Ascend and Transcend[/thread]
#1) [thread=273][Ivory Tower] clan formation[/thread]
Members (max 15):
T2sux- Cameron (Founder)
Goblinboy- Nick (Leader)
Senori- Ethan
r@sputin
Denver
ljossberir- Matt
Prizm- Herbert
bardo_trout - Dan
Mono-G
Mach1
The Blue Wizard - Justin
Dervish Lieutenant
Reality Twister
Furor
extremestan
Friends:
Solace
Nemata
Onikani
Tanthalas- Craig
Stax- James
SorryGuy
Craniumuser
As always, here are the last four posts on the thread to stimulate continued discussion:
Quote from T2sux »
I'm writing an essay on the nature of natural rights, and would like some feedback when it's done. ljoss and I have had extensive discussions on the topic, and I would like to explore it further. I'll post some/all of it as it gets along.
Any help/advice/death threats would be helpful!
Quote from Denver »
From what angle?
Are you saying that rights are natural, and that no one can deny them, even if they are sort of "blocked" by things like legal slavery and so on, or are you writing that the only rights a person can have are the ones they earn?
The former. I'm arguing that the three fundamental rights---life, liberty, and property---are inalienable and natural extentions of society.
Quote from Prizm »
Quote from Senori »
Either that, or people wanted it to be believable to justify their intense fear. :tongue2:
I suppose that's possible. Still, with the horrors of Nazi Germany fresh in their minds, and with reports of equally gruesome Soviet horrors, it was probably more believable than it is today.
I finished Travels With Charley yesterday, yet I have nothing to say.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I'm starting Guns, Germs, and Steel. Quite esoteric. :/
8-)
Today is the first day of School.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
T2: if life, liberty and property are inalienable rights, surely they don't depend on society, and thus aren't natural extensions of society? Personally, I would argue that liberty and property aren't fundamental rights in a society, but that doesn't follow your essay, so I'll gloss over that one.
The concepts of rights must come from society. If a man lived alone in his universe, how would he conceptualize rights? Rights can only come into question in a societal context. This is, of course, assuming that Plato was an idiot and that universals must be epistemologically conceptualized. You'll see how I do it in the essay--perhaps you can show me where I'm wrong?
And school starts in 8 days up here. Next Wednesday. Grr.
School starts tomorrow for me and I have a doosy of a senior schedule...6 Ap Classes. At least I will get out at lunch 2 days of the week.
BTW, I had to read Metamorphosis for school and I still can't figure out what it is trying to say.
Lastly, I'm curious as to how T2Sux will argue for "natural rights" by using society in anyway. The usual idea is that these rights transcend the society, and T2Sux has frequently argued in several topics and dismissed what society generally agrees to.
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"I never allowed my schooling to interfere with my education" -Mark Twain
Quote from hybrid life »
The war is for oil..its one of the ways to make this huge operation worthwhile. People care more about lower gas prices than iraqis anyway.
What others say about me:
Quote from JayC »
You're obviously an ignorant conservative. I blame your hill-billy Mom and Dad.
Lastly, I'm curious as to how T2Sux will argue for "natural rights" by using society in anyway. The usual idea is that these rights transcend the society, and T2Sux has frequently argued in several topics and dismissed what society generally agrees to.
Two issues I have with the "usual" idea. One: Epistemologically, the concept of rights cannot exist until they become threatened, namely, threatened by society. Those who try to defend natural rights without using society as a backdrop are missing the point. Second: Those who usually discuss natural rights are discussing them from a religious standpoint; I, of course, am not.
I posit that rights are derived from the natural function and existence of society---society in general, that is, not any particular nation.
The concepts of rights must come from society. If a man lived alone in his universe, how would he conceptualize rights? Rights can only come into question in a societal context. This is, of course, assuming that Plato was an idiot and that universals must be epistemologically conceptualized. You'll see how I do it in the essay--perhaps you can show me where I'm wrong?
It could also be argued that natural rights are granted by a deity or that they are inherent in our very nature.
I don't like the argument that natural rights are society based, but I'll wait and see what you have written before saying any more.
I don't like the argument that natural rights are society based,
I, too, don't trust the idea that institutions made of people with my flaws and faults give me my rights. More acceptable is the notion that we have these rights by nature of being a living human being.
I'd even accept divine gift of rights over society-given rights.
You don't. Rights may be present whether you acknowledge their existence or not. That is, they are either granted by a deity, in which case they do not need to be derived, or they are an intrinsic component of one's humanity, in which case they also do not need to be derived. Why can't natural rights be discovered?
You don't. Rights may be present whether you acknowledge their existence or not. That is, they are either granted by a deity, in which case they do not need to be derived, or they are an intrinsic component of one's humanity, in which case they also do not need to be derived. Why can't natural rights be discovered?
A right is an abstraction, not a concrete, and as such cannot exist in reality; abstractions are epistemological, not metaphysical existents.
Yes, but the abstraction "rights" could be a concept refering to a certain characteristic of human nature. Human nature is certainly not "derived" by us, otherwise it would not be "nature". If rights are a characteristics of human nature they are not derived, but rather discovered. So the question is, why can't rights be a characteristic of human nature?
Yes, but the abstraction "rights" could be a concept refering to a certain characteristic of human nature.
What is human nature? Our instincts? Or do we have an inherent nature? If so, how can property be inherent in our natures?
Human nature is certainly not "derived" by us, otherwise it would not be "nature". If rights are a characteristics of human nature they are not derived, but rather discovered.
If they are characteristics of human nature. If.
So the question is, why can't rights be a characteristic of human nature?
Because rights can only be conceptualized in a societal context. Tell me, if you are alone in a universe, do you have rights? No, a better question: If you are alone in a village with no people, does murder exist?
They are not inherent in us, but rather abstracted from society. By claiming that rights are a part of human nature, you're presupposing that universals are metaphysical existents. And yet you say that it's not so. A contradiction.
Yes, this is contingent on the existence of a human nature, which I am assuming throughout. More accurately, it is contingent on some intrinsic condition unique to humans which I am labelling as "human nature".
Because rights can only be conceptualized in a societal context. Tell me, if you are alone in a universe, do you have rights? No, a better question: If you are alone in a village with no people, does murder exist?
Your entire argument is that rights can only be conceptualized in a societal context. I don't see why this is the case. Of course you still have rights if you are alone in the village - does an African desert dweller living in complete isolation not have rights? Would it be murder if I went and killed him right now?
They are not inherent in us, but rather abstracted from society. By claiming that rights are a part of human nature, you're presupposing that universals are metaphysical existents. And yet you say that it's not so. A contradiction.
I said that rights are abstractions, as is human nature, both of which are epistemological existents and both of whose referents are observed behavior and character traits of the human species.
Society is nothing more than an organized collection of individuals, are you arguing that rights derive from interaction between these individuals? This would imply that rights are not universal.
I'm afraid I don't have time right now to comment on the debate over natural rights.
But I'm here! I'm here at Reed and I'm in my dorm and freshman orientation is going on and this is awesome and OMGOMGOMG and I'm gonna hyperventilate and *breathe in, breathe out*.
Okay, I'm excited.
And the last seven books of the Iliad were awesome.
Einsteinmonkey: what do you want advice on? Some specifics are pretty much needed, since an essay on university life would either kill me or depress me.
Actually, university life would be the most helpful I guess Along with study and work tips.
Just got finished with my first day of school. My schedule if any of you care:
AP Lit/Cmp
AP Environmental Science
AP Calculus B.C.
AP Psychology
AP Physics B.C.
AP American Govt/Econ
I am taking Environmental Science because that was the only science course that could fit...outside Bio and Chem. I am getting serious bad vibes from my english teacher....
It would be interesting to hear what the first couple days of a college are like...
I am going to wait to comment on natural rights until I see T2Sux's composition.
And that's all the news thats fit to print.
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"I never allowed my schooling to interfere with my education" -Mark Twain
Quote from hybrid life »
The war is for oil..its one of the ways to make this huge operation worthwhile. People care more about lower gas prices than iraqis anyway.
What others say about me:
Quote from JayC »
You're obviously an ignorant conservative. I blame your hill-billy Mom and Dad.
But I'm here! I'm here at Reed and I'm in my dorm and freshman orientation is going on and this is awesome and OMGOMGOMG and I'm gonna hyperventilate and *breathe in, breathe out*.
OMG you're at REED?!?!!?!? That's my new favorite school! I want to go there SOOO much!! I like it more than NYU....wouldn't that be funny if I got in? Heh. We'd be at the same school...oh my God I want to go to Reed so much, ever since I read an article on it in US News. "The life of the mind" and all that. Congrats!
@ R@sputin- I'll put off our debate until I post my paper. My idea, if I may be so arrogant, is fairly original, and it needs to be looked at in context. I do look forward to your inevitbale critique.
OMG you're at REED?!?!!?!? That's my new favorite school! I want to go there SOOO much!! I like it more than NYU....wouldn't that be funny if I got in? Heh. We'd be at the same school...oh my God I want to go to Reed so much, ever since I read an article on it in US News. "The life of the mind" and all that. Congrats!
If the timing synchs up, apply Early Decision. The chance to get in is greater, and you're assured financial aid for everything past your expected contribution (and work study and 4K loans...). I'm getting ~$25000 a year from the alumni association :D. The only "downside" is you have to go if you get in. Edit: don't think of it as charity. Think of it as a cost reduction done directly instead of indirectly :p.
Oh yeah, there was Convocation, and Linus Torvalds showed up and gave a speech. He wasn't too hot at speech giving, but come on.
School started today. My absolute FAVORITE class is Contemporary Issues, a current events/debate class. The teacher began the class by introducing a sample topic:
What is the best economic system, Capitalism or Socialism?
I nearly cried. I immediately raised my hand, as did my opponent, an old friend of mine, and we spent the class debating.
I think it's fair to say that, in the words of my internet brethren, I pwnd his a$$. Definitely looking forward to this class for the whole year
So, I hear oil is a bit pricey. And so is it's incredibly important derivative: gasoline.
Good luck America. You've been gorging on cake and cookies for years, now see what happens when you run out, decadent bastards.
Heh, I can't help but agree here. We pay incredibly low prices compared to most people, and yet the news is filled with people whining and complaining about it. Get over it already.
Quote from Cranimuser »
Yes, gas prices will go up pretty drastically in the US. I fail to see the effect this'll have on other countries yet *especcialy over here in the Netherlands* beyond the same rise in gas prices. I find economy to large and broad to predict and make any sort of claim. It however willnot be pretty I know as much as that.
I wonder what will happen with countries like the Netherlands, too. Unfortunately, I've never gotten to visit Europe (other than the British isles), but I know that your gas prices are already higher than ours. On the other hand, I believe almost every country in Europe has a vastly superior rail and subway system compared to the US, so you've probably got that going for you.
@Prizm: did you read it yet? I went to pick it up at the Barnes and Noble a few weeks ago but it wasnt in yet. I'm going back there this Saturday.
#5) [thread=12215][Ivory Tower]: Stylistically Singular[/thread]
#4) [thread=8781][Ivory Tower] was a book before it was a movie.[/thread]
#3) [thread=5600][Ivory Tower] on a Hill[/thread]
#2) [thread=2560][Ivory Tower] Ascend and Transcend[/thread]
#1) [thread=273][Ivory Tower] clan formation[/thread]
Members (max 15):
T2sux- Cameron (Founder)
Goblinboy- Nick (Leader)
Senori- Ethan
r@sputin
Denver
ljossberir- Matt
Prizm- Herbert
bardo_trout - Dan
Mono-G
Mach1
The Blue Wizard - Justin
Dervish Lieutenant
Reality Twister
Furor
extremestan
Friends:
Solace
Nemata
Onikani
Tanthalas- Craig
Stax- James
SorryGuy
Craniumuser
As always, here are the last four posts on the thread to stimulate continued discussion:
-Goblinboy
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
8-)
Today is the first day of School.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
And school starts in 8 days up here. Next Wednesday. Grr.
BTW, I had to read Metamorphosis for school and I still can't figure out what it is trying to say.
Lastly, I'm curious as to how T2Sux will argue for "natural rights" by using society in anyway. The usual idea is that these rights transcend the society, and T2Sux has frequently argued in several topics and dismissed what society generally agrees to.
What others say about me:
Sven Dostei
Unofficial Official arrogant teenage elitist of The Ivory Tower
I posit that rights are derived from the natural function and existence of society---society in general, that is, not any particular nation.
It could also be argued that natural rights are granted by a deity or that they are inherent in our very nature.
I don't like the argument that natural rights are society based, but I'll wait and see what you have written before saying any more.
I, too, don't trust the idea that institutions made of people with my flaws and faults give me my rights. More acceptable is the notion that we have these rights by nature of being a living human being.
I'd even accept divine gift of rights over society-given rights.
I should note that I am not arguing that society grants rights, but that rights are inherent in the nature of society.
They are not inherent in us, but rather abstracted from society. By claiming that rights are a part of human nature, you're presupposing that universals are metaphysical existents. And yet you say that it's not so. A contradiction.
Yes, this is contingent on the existence of a human nature, which I am assuming throughout. More accurately, it is contingent on some intrinsic condition unique to humans which I am labelling as "human nature".
Your entire argument is that rights can only be conceptualized in a societal context. I don't see why this is the case. Of course you still have rights if you are alone in the village - does an African desert dweller living in complete isolation not have rights? Would it be murder if I went and killed him right now?
I said that rights are abstractions, as is human nature, both of which are epistemological existents and both of whose referents are observed behavior and character traits of the human species.
Society is nothing more than an organized collection of individuals, are you arguing that rights derive from interaction between these individuals? This would imply that rights are not universal.
But I'm here! I'm here at Reed and I'm in my dorm and freshman orientation is going on and this is awesome and OMGOMGOMG and I'm gonna hyperventilate and *breathe in, breathe out*.
Okay, I'm excited.
And the last seven books of the Iliad were awesome.
-Goblinboy
Actually, university life would be the most helpful I guess Along with study and work tips.
AP Lit/Cmp
AP Environmental Science
AP Calculus B.C.
AP Psychology
AP Physics B.C.
AP American Govt/Econ
I am taking Environmental Science because that was the only science course that could fit...outside Bio and Chem. I am getting serious bad vibes from my english teacher....
It would be interesting to hear what the first couple days of a college are like...
I am going to wait to comment on natural rights until I see T2Sux's composition.
And that's all the news thats fit to print.
What others say about me:
Sven Dostei
Unofficial Official arrogant teenage elitist of The Ivory Tower
@ R@sputin- I'll put off our debate until I post my paper. My idea, if I may be so arrogant, is fairly original, and it needs to be looked at in context. I do look forward to your inevitbale critique.
If the timing synchs up, apply Early Decision. The chance to get in is greater, and you're assured financial aid for everything past your expected contribution (and work study and 4K loans...). I'm getting ~$25000 a year from the alumni association :D. The only "downside" is you have to go if you get in. Edit: don't think of it as charity. Think of it as a cost reduction done directly instead of indirectly :p.
Oh yeah, there was Convocation, and Linus Torvalds showed up and gave a speech. He wasn't too hot at speech giving, but come on.
-Goblinboy
What is the best economic system, Capitalism or Socialism?
I nearly cried. I immediately raised my hand, as did my opponent, an old friend of mine, and we spent the class debating.
I think it's fair to say that, in the words of my internet brethren, I pwnd his a$$. Definitely looking forward to this class for the whole year
Good luck America. You've been gorging on cake and cookies for years, now see what happens when you run out, decadent bastards.
Heh, I can't help but agree here. We pay incredibly low prices compared to most people, and yet the news is filled with people whining and complaining about it. Get over it already.
I wonder what will happen with countries like the Netherlands, too. Unfortunately, I've never gotten to visit Europe (other than the British isles), but I know that your gas prices are already higher than ours. On the other hand, I believe almost every country in Europe has a vastly superior rail and subway system compared to the US, so you've probably got that going for you.
@Prizm: did you read it yet? I went to pick it up at the Barnes and Noble a few weeks ago but it wasnt in yet. I'm going back there this Saturday.
I can tell you what is likely going to happen, but I don't think any liberals or environmentalists are going to like the answer.