Tweaking Death and Taxes in Legacy

CalebD · 06-10-2009, 12:52 PM

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Tweaking Death and Taxes in Legacy. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

MilkRequest · 06-10-2009, 01:04 PM

Great article, the deck seems very strong, and well tuned to the rest of the meta game. I was about to run out and grab a few Karakas and try it out, but it seems the M10 rule changes really hurt a lot of the tricks that are prevelant in this deck. Those are really the main source of card advantage. Do you think the deck can withstand the changes?

android · 06-10-2009, 02:42 PM

I don't think combat tricks are really the strength of this deck. Short of Jitte wielding Hounds bouncing after tokens or flashing in Stonecloakers with damage on the stack, I don't really see any validity in these statements.

The deck is all about bouncing with activated abilities on the stack which typically happen EOT or during the upkeep phase. Then you have vindicate abilities and graveyard hate for pinpoint removal. Current builds focus on Mana denial through Wastelands and Ports (I don't run them in my build). Then when the time is right, dropping a Cataclysm with Flagstones, Karakas, an Aether Vial/Jitte and some beater/vindicate dude to gain board advantage and just win. We run StP and O-rings and I'm now running a couple Path to Exile as StP 5 & 6. I really don't have any trouble stopping the early aggro rush and then Wrathing the board when they overcommit. Combo seems to me to be the bigger problem for this deck. There was a time when the deck was more control oriented with Mana Tithe, Glowrider and Shard of Amethyst but those builds are gone.

That's just my thoughts on the deck. I really don't see it as an aggro deck, I would say it still on the control side of the fence but can switch to the aggro win when the time is right.

burek · 06-10-2009, 02:57 PM

The deck didn't lose its main tricks, but it lost some of the side ones. Turning a trade into a blowout via Stonecloaker against Goblins (ie) could sometimes be relevant.

android · 06-10-2009, 03:23 PM

Goblins just became even less relevant due to the rules changes. No more machine gunning or pitching shock dudes with DotS. I can't remember the last time I faced Lackey and the gang anyhow.

I would say bouncing your Jitte guy with DotS and then finishing off Goyf or Tombstalker with Jitte tokens would be the scenario. However, even given that, declaring blockers and then bouncing guys is still entirely functional. Obviously you'll have to be holding your Stonecloakers unless your dude is legendary but that's a given. You can still pull just about all your vial tricks with your bounce/remove til eot guys.

Finn · 06-10-2009, 04:43 PM

Hey CalebD. It is interesting to see a different slant on the deck. Personally I think your reasoning and conclusions are sound. But I also think that you lose so much of what makes the deck work in order to face Landstill effectively that it just isn't worth the changes. My strategy is to just pray for a Vial or a Canonist in my opening 7 to keep them hitting backhand strokes while I land other cards that lend a hand. Not the best plan, I know. But bad matchups are what they are.

The deck does not have to be ponderously slow. I tend to play aggro against everyone except combo, Goblins, Zoo, and Tempo Thresh. But against Landstill you do have to be careful of sweepers. And that slows you down.

Anyway, interesting perspective. And I like your humor.

CalebD · 06-10-2009, 05:41 PM

MilkRequest: android really hit the nail on the head. There will be times when you will really want to block a 3/4 Tarmogoyf with a 3/x creature, and then Stonecloaker your creature back and make the Goyf a 2/3 with damage on the stack. Now you'll have to make due with just saving your creature and shrinking the Goyf. Despite the loss of this and a few similar tricks, most of the deck remains unharmed. If you're considering dropping the dough on some Karakas, I say go for it. I like testing new decks on a free engine (cough Magic Workstation cough) before buying. It helps me get a feel for the deck, and a better idea of whether or not I want to buy the cards or not.

Finn: Thanks! I know you've done a good job with the D&T primer in the forums, so your input is definitely valid.

As far as slow vs. not slow, I would side more with android in that the deck is primarily a control deck. You even agree somewhat, as you mention a list of decks you play control against. Yes, there are other decks that are slower than D&T, but if you're thinking about the deck in theoretical terms you have to face the fact that you're running turn three 3/3, 3/1, and 3/2 flyers. That's sealed-level-slow. When compared to the aggressive plan of a deck like gobblins, D&T is found wanting. Meaning it's the control elements, the interactivity, that keep it viable. That said, not all games are won on the back of Ethersworn Canonist's ability, land hosing, or a Mangara Lock. Tempo matters. Knowing when to play offensive is a large part of the skill level behind the deck, and from the sounds of it it's one you've mastered.

As a proponent of Glowrider, would you run the card in an aggressive gameplan, such as in the sideboard of a white-splashing goblin or zoo deck? Does the card do more to boost your tempo, or control the opponent's? What about the rest of the deck? In my view, even the Jotun Grunts are primarily played because of their graveyard-controlling ability. That's probably why I run two while the standard list, more aggressively valuing the boost in tempo a 4/4 for two mana brings, runs three.

CaptShetz · 06-10-2009, 07:51 PM

Under the "standard" D&T plan to SB against Landstill, you don't just side in the Cataclysms and "hope it resolves." You also side in Orim's Chant to eat their counterspell(s) to make SURE it resolves.

Also, in order to make the LS matchup playable, you completely ignore other important matchups (no chants? no further GY hate?). I posted a long discussion in the D&T forums on what I thought the ideal D&T SB would look like for a large, diverse meta... I won't bore people with the details, but I went with a completely different approach.

re: rules changes, like I posted in the forums, I don't think the combat tricks are that integral to the deck. The stonecloaker on the avenger or flickerwisp for the goyf kill is pretty darn rare. Most of the time you just flickerwisp the goyf out of the way for an easy attack or something. It was a nice side trick, but oh well. :P Saving our guy will still help our tempo and help us get to the late gate for our inevitabilities.

CalebD · 06-11-2009, 01:57 AM

How is 2 Tormod's, 2 Relic barrier "no further graveyard hate"? Eight graveyard hating spells between MD and SB, combined with the removal suite the deck runs, should be plenty.

I tried to explain the lack of chants as concisely as possible. I feel that the good storm player will play around chants anyway, so if you MD Mana Tithe then by game two they are playing around chants, tithe, and canonist, while they would only have to play around chants and cannonists against a normal build. If they aren't playing around your cards, then MD Tithe is uber good anyway.

Meanwhile, as a crappy duress vs Landstill I found chants to be somewhat lackluster. You're still breaking Standstill. You still don't have a plan against land recursion. Some builds will even have the tools to deal with your perfect plan of Chant+Cataclysm. Believe it or not, it only takes two counterspells. That's a maximum of four of their mana, and five of yours. So by "make SURE it resolves" you actually mean: pray, pray to whatever deity you believe in that they didn't draw anything relevant, which would be the plan without the Cataclysm in the first place.

And please, bore us with the details. An article is meant to be discussed, so if you're having success with a SB plan that's different than the somewhat unusual one that I've proposed, by all means share and explain it!

CaptShetz · 06-11-2009, 08:39 AM

I didn't want to repost my sideboard plan, since I just put it up in the D&T thread.

SB
4 Orim's Chant 3 Cataclysm 3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain 3 Burrenton Forge-tender 1 Jotun Grunt 1 Oblivion Ring

If the LS build you are up against is running Crucible of Worlds or whatever, Samurai of the Pale Curtain stops that. It is particularly good to have SotPC out before landing Cataclysm. Saucy.

android · 06-11-2009, 10:30 AM

Vial gets just about everything past Standstill so your basically fighting their man-lands with your superior creatures. None of their lands fly and most of them can't stand toe to toe with Grunt so you should be winning that battle. If you want to play bad cards, you could always throw in some Unicorns or Kamis but I really wouldn't go there unless enchantments are wrecking your meta. Even then, I would probably just stick to the game plan.

Worst case scenario vs landstill is they bounce your vial and then drop the standstill because I can pretty much guarantee you it's not going to stick the second time around. You can Chant but they still draw 3 and likely into a counter spell for your chant and probably more bounce for your Vial or another counter spell.

It's kind of a fun match up and I think your winning if the battle is fought over your Vial. This basically frees you up to start hardcasting your dudes and just win outright that way. Following the aforementioned exchange, you're likely (hopefully) holding a StP, PtE or O-ring and it's free to drop on any of their few threats.

I believe the key to playing vs control is to have your threat density higher than their control density. Even if they bounce and counter something, that's generally card advantage for you at the expense of tempo (something control lacks completely). Which brings up a unique advantage to this deck in that it can be played as a control deck but it's threat density is actually much higher than a typical control deck. We don't care who deals the 20 damage, could be Grunt, Stonecloaker, Avenger, whoever.

CaptShetz · 06-11-2009, 09:45 PM

Vial does make the LS mu much easier. If that doesn't encounter a FoW t1, you'll have a much easier time winning the game.

Unfortunately not every starting hand has one (or 2, after the fow or w/e), so backup plans are needed.

Naz · 06-12-2009, 03:45 PM

I liked reading the article but I don't think that your meta is representative for Legacy in general. Dreadstill and Landstill really aren't the most important DTB's.

CalebD · 06-12-2009, 05:30 PM

Samurai works against Crucible, but doesn't stop the dredging power of LFTL. Have you played against Dredge much? I found the Forge Tenders and Samurai make the game more of a fight, but not the blowout that other boarding practices might bring. Still, bodies are always nice.

Naz: You're absolutely correct. I did bank on the fact that most players know countertop is a force in legacy, letting me focus more on the matchups I had been researching.

UDemon · 06-12-2009, 10:22 PM

The best part about the article is that I am now running the landstill list at the bottom on FNMs... lol (our FNMs are legacy)

06-10-2009, 12:52 PM	#1
CalebD Ascended Mage Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Northern WI =( Posts: 222	Tweaking Death and Taxes in Legacy This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Tweaking Death and Taxes in Legacy. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

06-10-2009, 05:41 PM	#7
CalebD Ascended Mage Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Northern WI =( Posts: 222	MilkRequest: android really hit the nail on the head. There will be times when you will really want to block a 3/4 Tarmogoyf with a 3/x creature, and then Stonecloaker your creature back and make the Goyf a 2/3 with damage on the stack. Now you'll have to make due with just saving your creature and shrinking the Goyf. Despite the loss of this and a few similar tricks, most of the deck remains unharmed. If you're considering dropping the dough on some Karakas, I say go for it. I like testing new decks on a free engine (cough Magic Workstation cough) before buying. It helps me get a feel for the deck, and a better idea of whether or not I want to buy the cards or not. Finn: Thanks! I know you've done a good job with the D&T primer in the forums, so your input is definitely valid. As far as slow vs. not slow, I would side more with android in that the deck is primarily a control deck. You even agree somewhat, as you mention a list of decks you play control against. Yes, there are other decks that are slower than D&T, but if you're thinking about the deck in theoretical terms you have to face the fact that you're running turn three 3/3, 3/1, and 3/2 flyers. That's sealed-level-slow. When compared to the aggressive plan of a deck like gobblins, D&T is found wanting. Meaning it's the control elements, the interactivity, that keep it viable. That said, not all games are won on the back of Ethersworn Canonist's ability, land hosing, or a Mangara Lock. Tempo matters. Knowing when to play offensive is a large part of the skill level behind the deck, and from the sounds of it it's one you've mastered. As a proponent of Glowrider, would you run the card in an aggressive gameplan, such as in the sideboard of a white-splashing goblin or zoo deck? Does the card do more to boost your tempo, or control the opponent's? What about the rest of the deck? In my view, even the Jotun Grunts are primarily played because of their graveyard-controlling ability. That's probably why I run two while the standard list, more aggressively valuing the boost in tempo a 4/4 for two mana brings, runs three. __________________ Trade thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=167174 Currently playing unpowered fish in T1, ROFLThopter in extended, and pretty much anything in Legacy. In EDH I use Rofellos and Numot. On the rare occasion when I play standard, I'll play Elfball. Last edited by CalebD : 06-10-2009 at 05:44 PM.

06-10-2009, 07:51 PM	#8
CaptShetz Datur digniori Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Lansing, Michigan Posts: 1,812	Under the "standard" D&T plan to SB against Landstill, you don't just side in the Cataclysms and "hope it resolves." You also side in Orim's Chant to eat their counterspell(s) to make SURE it resolves. Also, in order to make the LS matchup playable, you completely ignore other important matchups (no chants? no further GY hate?). I posted a long discussion in the D&T forums on what I thought the ideal D&T SB would look like for a large, diverse meta... I won't bore people with the details, but I went with a completely different approach. re: rules changes, like I posted in the forums, I don't think the combat tricks are that integral to the deck. The stonecloaker on the avenger or flickerwisp for the goyf kill is pretty darn rare. Most of the time you just flickerwisp the goyf out of the way for an easy attack or something. It was a nice side trick, but oh well. :P Saving our guy will still help our tempo and help us get to the late gate for our inevitabilities. __________________ Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

06-11-2009, 01:57 AM	#9
CalebD Ascended Mage Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Northern WI =( Posts: 222	How is 2 Tormod's, 2 Relic barrier "no further graveyard hate"? Eight graveyard hating spells between MD and SB, combined with the removal suite the deck runs, should be plenty. I tried to explain the lack of chants as concisely as possible. I feel that the good storm player will play around chants anyway, so if you MD Mana Tithe then by game two they are playing around chants, tithe, and canonist, while they would only have to play around chants and cannonists against a normal build. If they aren't playing around your cards, then MD Tithe is uber good anyway. Meanwhile, as a crappy duress vs Landstill I found chants to be somewhat lackluster. You're still breaking Standstill. You still don't have a plan against land recursion. Some builds will even have the tools to deal with your perfect plan of Chant+Cataclysm. Believe it or not, it only takes two counterspells. That's a maximum of four of their mana, and five of yours. So by "make SURE it resolves" you actually mean: pray, pray to whatever deity you believe in that they didn't draw anything relevant, which would be the plan without the Cataclysm in the first place. And please, bore us with the details. An article is meant to be discussed, so if you're having success with a SB plan that's different than the somewhat unusual one that I've proposed, by all means share and explain it! __________________ Trade thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=167174 Currently playing unpowered fish in T1, ROFLThopter in extended, and pretty much anything in Legacy. In EDH I use Rofellos and Numot. On the rare occasion when I play standard, I'll play Elfball.

06-11-2009, 09:45 PM	#12
CaptShetz Datur digniori Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Lansing, Michigan Posts: 1,812	Vial does make the LS mu much easier. If that doesn't encounter a FoW t1, you'll have a much easier time winning the game. Unfortunately not every starting hand has one (or 2, after the fow or w/e), so backup plans are needed. __________________ Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc


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06-10-2009, 01:04 PM	#2
MilkRequest Common Mage Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 40	Great article, the deck seems very strong, and well tuned to the rest of the meta game. I was about to run out and grab a few Karakas and try it out, but it seems the M10 rule changes really hurt a lot of the tricks that are prevelant in this deck. Those are really the main source of card advantage. Do you think the deck can withstand the changes?

06-10-2009, 02:42 PM	#3
android Experienced Mage Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 93	I don't think combat tricks are really the strength of this deck. Short of Jitte wielding Hounds bouncing after tokens or flashing in Stonecloakers with damage on the stack, I don't really see any validity in these statements. The deck is all about bouncing with activated abilities on the stack which typically happen EOT or during the upkeep phase. Then you have vindicate abilities and graveyard hate for pinpoint removal. Current builds focus on Mana denial through Wastelands and Ports (I don't run them in my build). Then when the time is right, dropping a Cataclysm with Flagstones, Karakas, an Aether Vial/Jitte and some beater/vindicate dude to gain board advantage and just win. We run StP and O-rings and I'm now running a couple Path to Exile as StP 5 & 6. I really don't have any trouble stopping the early aggro rush and then Wrathing the board when they overcommit. Combo seems to me to be the bigger problem for this deck. There was a time when the deck was more control oriented with Mana Tithe, Glowrider and Shard of Amethyst but those builds are gone. That's just my thoughts on the deck. I really don't see it as an aggro deck, I would say it still on the control side of the fence but can switch to the aggro win when the time is right.

06-10-2009, 03:23 PM	#5
android Experienced Mage Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 93	Goblins just became even less relevant due to the rules changes. No more machine gunning or pitching shock dudes with DotS. I can't remember the last time I faced Lackey and the gang anyhow. I would say bouncing your Jitte guy with DotS and then finishing off Goyf or Tombstalker with Jitte tokens would be the scenario. However, even given that, declaring blockers and then bouncing guys is still entirely functional. Obviously you'll have to be holding your Stonecloakers unless your dude is legendary but that's a given. You can still pull just about all your vial tricks with your bounce/remove til eot guys.

06-10-2009, 04:43 PM	#6
Finn Archmage Overlord MTGS Writer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Radda Radda Posts: 1,059	Hey CalebD. It is interesting to see a different slant on the deck. Personally I think your reasoning and conclusions are sound. But I also think that you lose so much of what makes the deck work in order to face Landstill effectively that it just isn't worth the changes. My strategy is to just pray for a Vial or a Canonist in my opening 7 to keep them hitting backhand strokes while I land other cards that lend a hand. Not the best plan, I know. But bad matchups are what they are. The deck does not have to be ponderously slow. I tend to play aggro against everyone except combo, Goblins, Zoo, and Tempo Thresh. But against Landstill you do have to be careful of sweepers. And that slows you down. Anyway, interesting perspective. And I like your humor.

06-11-2009, 10:30 AM	#11
android Experienced Mage Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 93	Vial gets just about everything past Standstill so your basically fighting their man-lands with your superior creatures. None of their lands fly and most of them can't stand toe to toe with Grunt so you should be winning that battle. If you want to play bad cards, you could always throw in some Unicorns or Kamis but I really wouldn't go there unless enchantments are wrecking your meta. Even then, I would probably just stick to the game plan. Worst case scenario vs landstill is they bounce your vial and then drop the standstill because I can pretty much guarantee you it's not going to stick the second time around. You can Chant but they still draw 3 and likely into a counter spell for your chant and probably more bounce for your Vial or another counter spell. It's kind of a fun match up and I think your winning if the battle is fought over your Vial. This basically frees you up to start hardcasting your dudes and just win outright that way. Following the aforementioned exchange, you're likely (hopefully) holding a StP, PtE or O-ring and it's free to drop on any of their few threats. I believe the key to playing vs control is to have your threat density higher than their control density. Even if they bounce and counter something, that's generally card advantage for you at the expense of tempo (something control lacks completely). Which brings up a unique advantage to this deck in that it can be played as a control deck but it's threat density is actually much higher than a typical control deck. We don't care who deals the 20 damage, could be Grunt, Stonecloaker, Avenger, whoever.

06-12-2009, 05:30 PM	#14
CalebD Ascended Mage Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Northern WI =( Posts: 222	Samurai works against Crucible, but doesn't stop the dredging power of LFTL. Have you played against Dredge much? I found the Forge Tenders and Samurai make the game more of a fight, but not the blowout that other boarding practices might bring. Still, bodies are always nice. Naz: You're absolutely correct. I did bank on the fact that most players know countertop is a force in legacy, letting me focus more on the matchups I had been researching. __________________ Trade thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=167174 Currently playing unpowered fish in T1, ROFLThopter in extended, and pretty much anything in Legacy. In EDH I use Rofellos and Numot. On the rare occasion when I play standard, I'll play Elfball.

06-12-2009, 10:22 PM	#15
UDemon Experienced Mage Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 122	The best part about the article is that I am now running the landstill list at the bottom on FNMs... lol (our FNMs are legacy)

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