Thirst for Knowledge: Into the Frying Pan

Shinjutsei · 07-01-2009, 11:05 PM

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Thirst for Knowledge: Into the Frying Pan. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

Lotus · 07-01-2009, 11:48 PM

I was in the same mirage sealed.

Like you, I did terrible.

Like you, I really enjoyed it.

FearFreak · 07-01-2009, 11:57 PM

Yeah that sealed was the stones, in terms of fun, but the cards are so awful. I managed to get there with a bunch of fliers, with the lack of removal, heavy evasion seems really good. Thanks for visiting, I had a blast.

Surging Chaos · 07-02-2009, 12:10 AM

lol it's good to know that I'm not the only one that is worried about the power creep in creatures in M10.

Great Stable Stag and Baneslayer Angel are two more obvious pieces of power creep. I thought Wizards understood what kind of damage power creep does to the game >_>

Pseudotropheus · 07-02-2009, 12:48 AM

Bituminous Blast is a great card to cast Harm's Way on.

starwarer · 07-02-2009, 01:48 AM

Why have you included Reflecting Pool? If you have a black source, that's all you need! as such, I think I'd rather just have more mountains (or maybe one more swamp)

desCoures · 07-02-2009, 02:51 AM

Part of the problem is, factually, that the past two blocks have been heavily creature-centric, with mechanics devoted almost entirely to creatures.

Another part of the problem is, possibly, that these creature blocks (Lorwyn block and its ridiculous tribal overpoweredness especially) are being used as benchmarks for which to build new cards for this set. (Note to Wizards R&D: you know you don't have to try and beat Wren's Run Vanquisher. And Goldmeadow Stalwart. And Spectral Possession. In fact, please don't. Woolly Thoctar and Noble Hierarch were bad enough.)

The final part of the problem, IMO, is that the word 'fun' is being overused and misapplied. Very badly.

....I should say something about the article itself, shouldn't I? Nice article. :P

Fine, an actual comment. Ball Lightning and Hellspark Elemental both maindeck (or even in the same 75)? No. Just no.

Oh, wait, yes, emphatically yes. Anything that helps make my Cryptic Commands tapping everything that much more of a blowout. Or which makes the Faeries player's maindeck Peppersmokes that much more of a OMGWTF241FTW moment. Or which is completely negated by one Kitchen Finks.

Edit: Against WW, given that you have no way to deal with Honor of the Pure once it's down, Everlasting Torment + Fallout/Firespout/Pyroclasm might actually be a necessity.

weatherguy · 07-02-2009, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FearFreak

Yeah that sealed was the stones, in terms of fun, but the cards are so awful. I managed to get there with a bunch of fliers, with the lack of removal, heavy evasion seems really good. Thanks for visiting, I had a blast.

I hear that at least one room was clean.

But seriously, I'm glad you, Chris and Jon had such a fun time of it. Just sorry you guys didn't get any better cards for the trouble.

Oh, and yes, I've always found fliers, in a removal-light environment, to be the absolutely "stones".

(I'm a UW player from very early in my Magic career, so to speak)

the_cardfather · 07-02-2009, 08:38 AM

WU was a pretty strong draft archetype in MirVLite draft. The joke at our shop was if you were playing it in sealed you were already dead.

The biggest problem I have w/ Bit-Blast is it doesn't go to the dome. Why not run the new card draw spell from M10 and get 2 cards for BB rather than hope to cascade into something good and limit your deck's curve to do it. I'd rather forget about cascade and run something strong like Equake against Kithkin/Soldiers then you just have to worry about flying spirit tokens.

Cascade is strong, but its not for every deck.

CalebD · 07-02-2009, 08:59 AM

Vamp, Lions Eye Diamond, Dreadnought, etc... were a lot worse when stifle, burning wish, and Yawg's Win weren't around. Vamps power is determined by the power level of the cards around it. If all it can do is search up is a 2/2 first striker, it's not exactly "the stones."

In that light, I don't think any of these old cards are overpowered, and I think Mirage was a pretty well designed set. It is the printing of later cards that made Mirage stuff broken, and thus the blame rests with another generation of R&D blokes.

Guerilla · 07-02-2009, 10:07 AM

I don't really think power creep is there as much as the author suggests - although today's creatures are clearly more powerful. It's just that around Masques/Invasion block Wizards starting pushing the power level on creatures. Compare Lorwyn block to Urza's, for example.

Also, Mirage wasn't really designed with limited in mind, which makes it feel like a weaker set when you're playing with it.

Cugginenter · 07-02-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guerilla

I don't really think power creep is there as much as the author suggests - although today's creatures are clearly more powerful. It's just that around Masques/Invasion block Wizards starting pushing the power level on creatures. Compare Lorwyn block to Urza's, for example.

Also, Mirage wasn't really designed with limited in mind, which makes it feel like a weaker set when you're playing with it.

Just compare the creatures today to creatures in Ravnica. (which at the time were considered awesome) I think you'll quickly see a trend of lower manacosts with stronger p/t and abilities. Another problem is that mana colors almost don't matter; in the current format it's almost as though every card is colorless.

Jester's Tear · 07-02-2009, 12:15 PM

Ahhh, Mirage. Yes, this old man was actually a regular player when that set dropped. That was back before other countries discovered the game, and the top 100 DCI list included 8 people from just our local playing group of Flint / Fenton / Auburn Hills, and one of our younger guys was the #1 juniors player. One of our group (my brother Chris) got invited to an early pro tour, but that was back when you had to pay for EVERYTHING yourself, and he couldn't get the local store to sponsor him because the owner didn't realize the prestige that a pro player could bring him.

But I digress...

Believe it or not, Mirage and Visions were considered overpowered in a few areas at the time. Flanking, as you pointed out, was just sick and wrong. More importantly, though, Mirage / Visions gave us the absolutely AMAZING Cadaverous Bloom / Squandered Resources / Prosperity deck.

It was back when I managed Guildhouse, I was sitting in there after one of our drafts, and I built up a sick black / green deck with Bloom and Resources. One of our Auburn Hills guys came in, looked at my deck and said "why don't you drop blue in that and run Prosperity?" And a local nightmare was born.

Now, though... I've been sorting through boxes upon boxes of cards, looking back at the old stuff and much like you saying "yeah, this would just suck in today's environment." That's a good thing, though. Do we really want the game to be so stagnant that more than a few unintentionally over-powered cards from over 10 years ago are still vaible contenders against the cards of today?

Weatherlight... that was the first set that came out after my cards got stolen and I lost a lot of my love for the game. I still remember the furor caused by Abeyance, though. At the time, TAPPING was considered an activation cost - meaning that Abeyance stopped you from tapping anything for mana. It stopped you from tapping creatures to attack. Until the D'Angelo rulings dropped, that card was a white time walk - your opponent got to untap and draw, and that was it. Of course as soon as D'Angelo's update went out and people saw that you could no longer stop them from tapping for mana, nor could you stop their attack phase, the card quickly dropped from $15 - $20 down to about $5.

Lots of nostalgia there... thanks for bringing back those memories of the good old days of Magic, Chris. Probably see ya at GS tomorrow night.

TwOnEight_Magic · 07-02-2009, 01:46 PM

I like the article Chris, makes some sense and truly improves a mediocre deck. With M10 on the horizon, I think RB aggro could actually be competitive, quite quickly.

Madding · 07-02-2009, 02:57 PM

I liked the article in regards to the fun throw-back commentary on things like Mirage, but the second half seemed sort of redundant and obvious. We all know that Cascade is awesome and Bituminous Blast is a good example of it. I felt like it pretty much just kept stressing those two facts, when we already knew it.

Good article, though. Yours are the only I read.

07-01-2009, 11:48 PM	#2
Lotus I'm just saying! Glue tastes pretty good! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 2,473	I was in the same mirage sealed. Like you, I did terrible. Like you, I really enjoyed it. __________________ Thanks to AEther for my sig Looking to discuss magic at a competitive level? Come join Team Revolution!

07-02-2009, 12:48 AM	#5
Pseudotropheus Experienced Mage Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 90	Bituminous Blast is a great card to cast Harm's Way on. __________________ Learn from my(and others') mistakes! Watch our draft videos at mtgovideos.com!

07-02-2009, 02:51 AM	#7
desCoures Archmage Mafia Newcomer of the Year, 2008 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 801	Part of the problem is, factually, that the past two blocks have been heavily creature-centric, with mechanics devoted almost entirely to creatures. Another part of the problem is, possibly, that these creature blocks (Lorwyn block and its ridiculous tribal overpoweredness especially) are being used as benchmarks for which to build new cards for this set. (Note to Wizards R&D: you know you don't have to try and beat Wren's Run Vanquisher. And Goldmeadow Stalwart. And Spectral Possession. In fact, please don't. Woolly Thoctar and Noble Hierarch were bad enough.) The final part of the problem, IMO, is that the word 'fun' is being overused and misapplied. Very badly. ....I should say something about the article itself, shouldn't I? Nice article. :P Fine, an actual comment. Ball Lightning and Hellspark Elemental both maindeck (or even in the same 75)? No. Just no. Oh, wait, yes, emphatically yes. Anything that helps make my Cryptic Commands tapping everything that much more of a blowout. Or which makes the Faeries player's maindeck Peppersmokes that much more of a OMGWTF241FTW moment. Or which is completely negated by one Kitchen Finks. Edit: Against WW, given that you have no way to deal with Honor of the Pure once it's down, Everlasting Torment + Fallout/Firespout/Pyroclasm might actually be a necessity. __________________ Mafia actually represents Magic. The intelligent Blue players pitting their intellect against the evil Red (and occasionally Green) players attempting to lead the game down the path of idiocy. (Mafia) Invitational Cards: Wall of Text;Artifact Creature - Wall;/5; Reach, First Strike; is equal to the number of lines of flavour text on permanents you control; The pen is not as mighty as that which flows from it.

07-02-2009, 08:59 AM	#10
CalebD Ascended Mage Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Northern WI =( Posts: 222	Vamp, Lions Eye Diamond, Dreadnought, etc... were a lot worse when stifle, burning wish, and Yawg's Win weren't around. Vamps power is determined by the power level of the cards around it. If all it can do is search up is a 2/2 first striker, it's not exactly "the stones." In that light, I don't think any of these old cards are overpowered, and I think Mirage was a pretty well designed set. It is the printing of later cards that made Mirage stuff broken, and thus the blame rests with another generation of R&D blokes. __________________ Trade thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=167174 Currently playing unpowered fish in T1, ROFLThopter in extended, and pretty much anything in Legacy. In EDH I use Rofellos and Numot. On the rare occasion when I play standard, I'll play Elfball.

07-02-2009, 12:15 PM	#13
Jester's Tear Ascended Mage Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 324	Ahhh, Mirage. Yes, this old man was actually a regular player when that set dropped. That was back before other countries discovered the game, and the top 100 DCI list included 8 people from just our local playing group of Flint / Fenton / Auburn Hills, and one of our younger guys was the #1 juniors player. One of our group (my brother Chris) got invited to an early pro tour, but that was back when you had to pay for EVERYTHING yourself, and he couldn't get the local store to sponsor him because the owner didn't realize the prestige that a pro player could bring him. But I digress... Believe it or not, Mirage and Visions were considered overpowered in a few areas at the time. Flanking, as you pointed out, was just sick and wrong. More importantly, though, Mirage / Visions gave us the absolutely AMAZING Cadaverous Bloom / Squandered Resources / Prosperity deck. It was back when I managed Guildhouse, I was sitting in there after one of our drafts, and I built up a sick black / green deck with Bloom and Resources. One of our Auburn Hills guys came in, looked at my deck and said "why don't you drop blue in that and run Prosperity?" And a local nightmare was born. Now, though... I've been sorting through boxes upon boxes of cards, looking back at the old stuff and much like you saying "yeah, this would just suck in today's environment." That's a good thing, though. Do we really want the game to be so stagnant that more than a few unintentionally over-powered cards from over 10 years ago are still vaible contenders against the cards of today? Weatherlight... that was the first set that came out after my cards got stolen and I lost a lot of my love for the game. I still remember the furor caused by Abeyance, though. At the time, TAPPING was considered an activation cost - meaning that Abeyance stopped you from tapping anything for mana. It stopped you from tapping creatures to attack. Until the D'Angelo rulings dropped, that card was a white time walk - your opponent got to untap and draw, and that was it. Of course as soon as D'Angelo's update went out and people saw that you could no longer stop them from tapping for mana, nor could you stop their attack phase, the card quickly dropped from $15 - $20 down to about $5. Lots of nostalgia there... thanks for bringing back those memories of the good old days of Magic, Chris. Probably see ya at GS tomorrow night. __________________ Fact. Guesswork. Opinion. All 3 are different, and the sooner you learn that the more intelligent you will sound. Proud member of Team Bald Dummy


Home Articles Zendikar Spoiler (249/249) Radar Forums Blogs Wiki Writing/Contests Chat About

07-01-2009, 11:05 PM	#1
Shinjutsei Actually still alive MTGS Writer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 6,785	Thirst for Knowledge: Into the Frying Pan This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Thirst for Knowledge: Into the Frying Pan. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

07-01-2009, 11:57 PM	#3
FearFreak Just Getting Started Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 18	Yeah that sealed was the stones, in terms of fun, but the cards are so awful. I managed to get there with a bunch of fliers, with the lack of removal, heavy evasion seems really good. Thanks for visiting, I had a blast.

07-02-2009, 01:48 AM	#6
starwarer Just Getting Started Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9	Why have you included Reflecting Pool? If you have a black source, that's all you need! as such, I think I'd rather just have more mountains (or maybe one more swamp)

07-02-2009, 08:38 AM	#9
the_cardfather Archmage Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: St Petersburg, FL Posts: 990	WU was a pretty strong draft archetype in MirVLite draft. The joke at our shop was if you were playing it in sealed you were already dead. The biggest problem I have w/ Bit-Blast is it doesn't go to the dome. Why not run the new card draw spell from M10 and get 2 cards for BB rather than hope to cascade into something good and limit your deck's curve to do it. I'd rather forget about cascade and run something strong like Equake against Kithkin/Soldiers then you just have to worry about flying spirit tokens. Cascade is strong, but its not for every deck.

07-02-2009, 10:07 AM	#11
Guerilla Experienced Mage Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 121	I don't really think power creep is there as much as the author suggests - although today's creatures are clearly more powerful. It's just that around Masques/Invasion block Wizards starting pushing the power level on creatures. Compare Lorwyn block to Urza's, for example. Also, Mirage wasn't really designed with limited in mind, which makes it feel like a weaker set when you're playing with it.

07-02-2009, 01:46 PM	#14
TwOnEight_Magic Majin Bluu v2.18 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: The TwOnEight Playing: Valakut Green Posts: 4,122 Blog Entries: 2	I like the article Chris, makes some sense and truly improves a mediocre deck. With M10 on the horizon, I think RB aggro could actually be competitive, quite quickly. __________________ 2009 Fall PTQ Season 10/10 Fargo ND - 15/124

07-02-2009, 02:57 PM	#15
Madding A frog among toads. Join Date: May 2007 Location: Evelia Posts: 2,713	I liked the article in regards to the fun throw-back commentary on things like Mirage, but the second half seemed sort of redundant and obvious. We all know that Cascade is awesome and Bituminous Blast is a good example of it. I felt like it pretty much just kept stressing those two facts, when we already knew it. Good article, though. Yours are the only I read. __________________ I have told you the truth, and everything as it happened... My H/W Thread -------- Sig & Avvy by: High~Light Studios.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	User Name: Search this Thread: Advanced Search