When looking at Dimir Doppelganger from today's gold rush, I instantly thought of Volrath's Shapeshifter and the Legacy deck it is used in, Full English Breakfast (FEB).
FEB changes Volrath's Shapeshifter into a unblockable creature, attacks, changes it to Flowstone Hellion, plays its +1/-1 ability eight times, in response changes it to Phyrexian Dreadnought and deals 20 damage. (There's also a win with Phage)
There's a similar card in Ravnica for each of those used above:
Shapeshifter => Dimir Doppelganger
unblockable creature => Dimir Infiltrator
Hellion => Carrion Howler
Dreadnought => Autochthon Wurm
You could get those cards into your graveyard by milling yourself, and the Infiltrator can even Transmute.
Of course, this deck would be much slower than the original because Rav doesn't have an equivalent to Survival of the Fittest and the Doppelganger needs more mana to change its form.
Do you think such a deck would be constructed viable or only casual?
i would say the deck is interesting but unless you can win by turn 4 the deck gets crushed. combo typically beats agro but not in a format with cranial and jester's cap. any control deck pretty much squeezes the life out of combo . i know you guys are gonna disagree with my RPS and i know there are exceptions to this but thats generally how it goes down,
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who is the one that is supposed to watch the one that is supposed to watch the other one?
-a great mind
I think this deck, could be constructed viable, not only because it has all the pieces, but it also has cards in the enviornment like SDT, and also the addition of Dredge could actually help it.
i would say the deck is interesting but unless you can win by turn 4 the deck gets crushed. combo typically beats agro but not in a format with cranial and jester's cap. any control deck pretty much squeezes the life out of combo . i know you guys are gonna disagree with my RPS and i know there are exceptions to this but thats generally how it goes down,
This is a block deck, so he doesn't have to worry about Cranial or Cap.
thats true, this could be a great block deck.maybe the best RAV because if you can off before control gets counters or aggro kills you then this could be a viable deck. in t2 however theres a lot more discard, removal, etc so probably not in t2. like shade noose said, the dredge mechanic could really help your deck.
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who is the one that is supposed to watch the one that is supposed to watch the other one?
-a great mind
u run into the problem that if u fail to find the Shapeshifter u are playing with off color inferior cards. In block this could be viable but in standard the amount of combo hate is so high that i don't think this could work.
"Wall of Roots trades with Doran. Doran doesn't like Wall of Roots. You would think he might, as they are both trees. But Doran is a sociopathic tree. He and other trees don't get along – hell, he doesn't even get along with himself. Have you seen what happens when you cast two Dorans? Let me tell you, it isn't pretty." -Uri Peleg
Um, maybe be I'm wrong, but can't they just like shock your shapeshifter or something cause of its massive toughness drop? Or any kind of removal ruins it really. Probably needs mass mana + mass anti-targeting or counters.
not neccesarily too much mana. i mean if you cna stall till turn 5 then you can go SMACK. turn 3 you play it. turn 4 eot copy infiltrator. turn 5 stalll with counters ready. turn 6 go smack.removal isnt too big an issue since its black plus you should be running some counters.
P.S MELOKU IS IN NO WAY BETTER THEN MORPHLING! MORPHLING IS GOD AND MELOKU IS HIS LITTLE SIDESERVANT!
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who is the one that is supposed to watch the one that is supposed to watch the other one?
-a great mind
This could be quite good. I don't even think the Dimir Infiltrator is needed, the wurm has trample, and the wolf gives +2/-1. This means that at eot make the shapeshifter into the wolf. On your turn attack. Wait till they block, then pump it's front end enough to trample over for the kill. You can pump it as high as 35/1 trample if you have the 13 life to spend and not much can block that, of course you'd only pump it enough to make sure it got though. This also needs fewer cards. I think this could work. Maybe not a great deck but it's be very cool when it worked.
Ok, I've been working on my own decklist just some thoughts here.
4x Watery Grave
7x Swamps
11x Islands
22 Land
4x Compulsive Research
4x Mark of Eviction
4x Telling Time
4x Perplex
4x Consult the Necrosages
20 Non-creature Spells
4x Dimir Doppleganger
4x Mindleech Mass
3x Szadek, Lord of Secrets
4x Carrion Howler
3x Autochthon Wurm
18 Creatures
This deck uses Compulsive Research, Telling Time, and Consult the Necrosages to find the combo and put pieces in your graveyard. Consult also can disrupt your opponent. Perplexs and Mark of Eviction are the control elements, I kinda think the deck needs more, but I don't know what. Dimir Doppleganger can clone Mindleech Mass or Szadek as other options the the main combo. Szadek is nice because while the mass is a copy of him he gets a ton of counters, but if he changes form he keeps the counters. And of course the main combo is to copy the Howler at the end of you oponent's turn, attack on your turn, activate the Howler's ability as many times as needed then copy the Wurm before they resolve. It could pull the whole thing off on turn 6, turn 5 if a better way to get cards to the graveyard were included. Anyway, with some work something like this could be a lot of fun to play, and might even win.
I do not believe that this deck would work at all, as the vast number of large, cheap creatures will just be played and beat this deck up before it can do anything. The problem is this: The shapeshifter has to remove stuff from the game to make it useful, meaning you have to play multiple copies of the cards to ever change back to something, if that was the goal. If not, why not just reanimate the critter with the reanimation spell? It costs less (4 mana compared to 6), and doesn't die to some random 2 damage spell, and the creature will be +1/+1 larger. Seems like a better alternative all around, really. A blue/black/green deck for mana accel, fat GOOD creatures and some removal/card draw. You'll even get all to use nifty come-into-play effects that the shapeshifter won't let you use.
Unless some good instant creature abilites actually exist, I can see no point to using the shapeshifter over straight reanimation. Sure, milling with the vamp lord is nice, but there needs to be more than that. It just takes too much mana and exactness to do this without something like Survival.
As it is now, G/W Efficient Beaters will just smash this.
You have Dimir Doppleganger out. You have the big Wurm, the Howler and (if you want) the Infiltrator in your grave. You change the Doppleganger into the Howler (or the Infilitrator, then the Howler after blockers), attack, activate the Howler's ability a bunch of times in response to each other (so the stack is a bunch of activations), then change the Doppleganger into the Wurm before they resolve. Now it's a 9/14 and it's about to get, say, +16/-8 (if you payed 8 life), which should be sufficient to put your opponent at or below zero. If you have 13 life to pay, you can make it a 35/1, but that's pretty risky if they have Helix mana open. I, personally, think this is the best thing one could do with the Wurm and I might try to build this (since it'll be pretty cheap).
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type 1 FEB is one of my favorite decks to play, when i saw this card spoiled i planned on making it a type 2 deck. i think the howler works great staying on-color using the black Hunted Horror (not for 20 but close), and also with type 2 you have Kuro, Pit Lord that will hit as 21/3 for 6 life + however much life it takes to clear out all blockers with -1/-1 counters.
Before damage goes on the stack, your opponent could either Putrefy the Doppelganger or Devouring Light it, and with only one copy of each combo piece, what would you do then? Clutch of the Undercity (or any other bounce, or targeted creature-kill) also wrecks the combo. That kind of thing is probably not run nearly as often in Vintage, and you'd also have Force of Will to back up your combo, but what would be the answer in T2?
I'm aware of this problem, and the only card I can think of that could help is Veil of Secrecy, but that is another card and another 2 mana needed for the combo. I don't think there's a point in running two of each combo piece, because if you don't win the first time, you'll probably lose anyway.
I have considered it, but never tried it out. I thought five mana is too much, because turn six is way too late to win. Either I'll be Cranial Extracted at that time or I'll have lost to an army of R/W weenies. It might be possible to play it in a more controlish deck, however.
I am loving this deck... Veil Of Secrecy looks pretty good to me. However they can still just respond to the veil with fatal burn to the creature. Disrupting Shoal might actually be good in this deck. I would run at least one extra copy of the worm and the howler in the sideboard. I think this deck needs at least 8 maindeck counterspells to protect the combo. BTW-While we don't have gifts in block, we do have some good card drawing.
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"But then are we most in order when we are most out of order."-Jack Cade
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
Out of curiosity, did you try running it with Moonlight Bargain? It is (as was pointed out to me by Piledriver) basically a Black Fact or Fiction. It also dumps any missing combo pieces into your yard. Also, perplex is good. You should make more use out of the transmute ability, say by including Drift of Phantasms.
Out of curiosity, did you try running it with Moonlight Bargain? It is (as was pointed out to me by Piledriver) basically a Black Fact or Fiction. It also dumps any missing combo pieces into your yard.
I concur. This deck needs bargain in block to work.
LOL. I just realized that there are now two rediculously good black card drawers with bargain in their names.
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"But then are we most in order when we are most out of order."-Jack Cade
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
I did play Bargain in the block deck, but in standard I took it out, because I run only one of each combo piece. I might include it again, thought.
Can anyone who has the possibility of playing Ravnica against other players test this deck (like in apprentice)? I'm only able to goldfish Ravnica.
You should make more use out of the transmute ability, say by including Drift of Phantasms.
I think that a transmute card should have a useful ability outside of transmuting. I already have 4 Doppelganger and 4 Perplex, which I think is enough.
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FEB changes Volrath's Shapeshifter into a unblockable creature, attacks, changes it to Flowstone Hellion, plays its +1/-1 ability eight times, in response changes it to Phyrexian Dreadnought and deals 20 damage. (There's also a win with Phage)
There's a similar card in Ravnica for each of those used above:
Shapeshifter => Dimir Doppelganger
unblockable creature => Dimir Infiltrator
Hellion => Carrion Howler
Dreadnought => Autochthon Wurm
You could get those cards into your graveyard by milling yourself, and the Infiltrator can even Transmute.
Of course, this deck would be much slower than the original because Rav doesn't have an equivalent to Survival of the Fittest and the Doppelganger needs more mana to change its form.
Do you think such a deck would be constructed viable or only casual?
-a great mind
Awesome banner by R & Doom
I think this deck, could be constructed viable, not only because it has all the pieces, but it also has cards in the enviornment like SDT, and also the addition of Dredge could actually help it.
This is a block deck, so he doesn't have to worry about Cranial or Cap.
-a great mind
Awesome banner by R & Doom
I kill you with
it.
4 Watery Grave
4 Island
2 Swamp
5 Forest
1 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Dimir Signet
4 Dimir Doppelganger
1 Autochton Wurm
1 Carrion Howler
2 Dimir Infiltrator
Preparing and Protecting 28
4 Telling Time
4 Farseek
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Darkblast
4 Compulsive Research
4 Congregation at Dawn
2 Convolute
2 Perplex
Darkblast is there to get the cards you found with Congregation into your grave.
This decklist isn't fast enough, but I hope that's only because of my moderate deck building skills.
P.S MELOKU IS IN NO WAY BETTER THEN MORPHLING! MORPHLING IS GOD AND MELOKU IS HIS LITTLE SIDESERVANT!
-a great mind
Awesome banner by R & Doom
Tau
4x Watery Grave
7x Swamps
11x Islands
22 Land
4x Compulsive Research
4x Mark of Eviction
4x Telling Time
4x Perplex
4x Consult the Necrosages
20 Non-creature Spells
4x Dimir Doppleganger
4x Mindleech Mass
3x Szadek, Lord of Secrets
4x Carrion Howler
3x Autochthon Wurm
18 Creatures
This deck uses Compulsive Research, Telling Time, and Consult the Necrosages to find the combo and put pieces in your graveyard. Consult also can disrupt your opponent. Perplexs and Mark of Eviction are the control elements, I kinda think the deck needs more, but I don't know what. Dimir Doppleganger can clone Mindleech Mass or Szadek as other options the the main combo. Szadek is nice because while the mass is a copy of him he gets a ton of counters, but if he changes form he keeps the counters. And of course the main combo is to copy the Howler at the end of you oponent's turn, attack on your turn, activate the Howler's ability as many times as needed then copy the Wurm before they resolve. It could pull the whole thing off on turn 6, turn 5 if a better way to get cards to the graveyard were included. Anyway, with some work something like this could be a lot of fun to play, and might even win.
Tau
Unless some good instant creature abilites actually exist, I can see no point to using the shapeshifter over straight reanimation. Sure, milling with the vamp lord is nice, but there needs to be more than that. It just takes too much mana and exactness to do this without something like Survival.
As it is now, G/W Efficient Beaters will just smash this.
Hey, you. Yes, you reading this sig. Get off your computer, go find a copy of Skies of Arcadia: Legends and play it. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Watery Grave
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Underground River
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Quicksand - against weenies
4 Farseek
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Dimir Doppelganger
1 Carrion Howler
1 Autochthon Wurm
Setting and Protecting
2 Putrefy
1 Hideous Laughter
3 Clutch of the Undercity - bounce or fetch Gifts/Laughter
4 Perplex - counter or fetch Doppelganger
3 Mana Leak
4 Compulsive Research - helps discarding Wurm and Howler
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Recollect - use with Gifts
1 Raise Dead - dito
Remember that you can find only two cards with Gifts and put both into your graveyard, if you already have everything else you need.
Unfortunately, this deck can't win before turn 5 (unless you get really lucky).
Before damage goes on the stack, your opponent could either Putrefy the Doppelganger or Devouring Light it, and with only one copy of each combo piece, what would you do then? Clutch of the Undercity (or any other bounce, or targeted creature-kill) also wrecks the combo. That kind of thing is probably not run nearly as often in Vintage, and you'd also have Force of Will to back up your combo, but what would be the answer in T2?
Actually, the deck I posted above is Standard. I tried a Block deck, but without something like Gifts it just didn't work properly.
I don't know about the shoal, but it might be a good idea.
EDIT: I changed the thread title.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
Son of the Ineffible
LOL. I just realized that there are now two rediculously good black card drawers with bargain in their names.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
Can anyone who has the possibility of playing Ravnica against other players test this deck (like in apprentice)? I'm only able to goldfish Ravnica.
I think that a transmute card should have a useful ability outside of transmuting. I already have 4 Doppelganger and 4 Perplex, which I think is enough.