Hi all! This is my first EDH deck that Ive built myself and I am really looking for advice from experienced players of EDH on cards that I may have neglected or should be swapped because they are not great in the deck.
There are 2 'locks' on top of the aggressive Zur beats: i) Counterspell or equivalent on scepter with arcane lab down ii) Necropotence and Solitary Confinement, preferably with Greater Auramancy down.
This is designed for a 1v1 dual and not multiplayer games.
Bribery --> Sunder
Rhystic Study --> Standstill
Spelljack --> Delay
Arrest --> Diplomatic Immunity
Mouth of Ronom --> Hall of the Bandit Lord
Fetid Heath --> Forbidden Orchard
Tolaria West --> Down to 100 cards, OOPS!
I would probably replaced lightning greaves for sensei's divining top . If not another card for it. I don't know.
power sink for rune snag if the purpose to stop early threats with counter magic.
bribery for sunder . Although both of these feels like a win more card, I probably go with the latter. Once you attack with Zur once or twice a bribery is unnecessary. You would probably want to protect Zur more and Sunder does a better job at that.
You deck is missing a mana vault . Mana vault is good in any deck and this would help out with turn one signet, talisman, or another good accerlerator. The faster you can drop Zur the more chances he'll be around when you can untap and have counter magic to protect him.
Some of the cards I feel is unnecessary in your build is: winds of rath . If you can attach with Zur once, you should be able to fetch something to deal with what is on the field. Your counter magic should be able to stop any threat your opponent would have on the battlefield. Even at best, your opponent would have two creatures unless you are going against some crazy token generating deck. If that was the case fetch for solitary confinement . replenish why?? If you had to cast replenish while you have Zur in play there is something wrong...and if it was in your hand before you cast Zur it is a dead card. If you attack you shouldn't need to cast this. So, it can probably be cut. spelljack another win more card. This can be replaced with more lower casting cost counter magic or spot removal.
Again great great deck list and I might have to steal this one from you. I wanted to build a competitive Zur deck but haven't had the time since I am always working and tweaking Arcum. This is again is probably one of the best builds. Congrats!!!
I agree that Sunder should go in and Replenish out. Sunder is instant speed so you can do it at the end of your opponents turn which means you can leave counter mana open up until that point. Bribery should probably be cut as well or at least change it to Desertion so your opponent is wasting the mana to summon a creature that you will be stealing. Another option might be replace Bribery with another spot removal like Doomblade, Oblation, Spin into Myth. Or if you're worried about losing your lands or want to re-use your fetch lands you can include Crucible of Worlds.
If you're going to run Solitary Confinement, get rid of Rhystic Study and put in Phyrexian Arena or just rely on Necropotence to feed you cards. Rhystic is really more for multiplayer games. However Standstill is another nice card drawer, and even if you need to counter the spell that your opponent plays while its out it still activates for you since they played a spell first doesn't say they had to successfully cast it.
I like Orim's Chant I should grab one of those and straight up replace Silence with it for my 1v1 version.
You may want to replace Spelljack since it is pretty much dead in your hand most games unless you make it that many turns in. Usually it's better to just have 2cc and 3cc counters in hand. You could replace it with Absorb, Dromar's Charm, Delay, or Undermine.
Anyways, I need to get to sleep, good job on tuning it this much already. I'm sure you'll be crushing people's hopes and dreams in no time.
I see what you mean about the haste, but then again how often do you want to have him attacking turn 4 with no counter/vanishing mana up?? Tower is just way too good with necro/empyrical armour! And the plains are fantastic at "re-tutoring" destroyed enchantments with zur.
I would probably replaced lightning greaves for sensei's divining top . If not another card for it. I don't know.
power sink for rune snag if the purpose to stop early threats with counter magic.
Greaves are fantastic in this deck, its just a shame you cant always tutor them in time...
As far as Power Sink goes, it is great a bit later in the game, especially if you are playing against a control deck so that you force them to tap all their mana giving you a free turn to cast spells (minus pact and FoW).
1) Winds are a backup incase an army gets out of control, Ive missed some counter oppertunities, shroud guys, etc. The major bonus is that 99% of the time Zur will hang around afterwards!
2)Replenish is there again if things go wrong. You can always expect a smooth run of the right cards so if Zur dies to a sudden death kinda spell or something like austere command resolves ,this allows you to get everything back again...
3)Spelljack is more for counter wars stealing cryptics or FoWs. But Ill concede that i can prob be replaced for something like desertion which I love in my cube!
Again great great deck list and I might have to steal this one from you. I wanted to build a competitive Zur deck but haven't had the time since I am always working and tweaking Arcum. This is again is probably one of the best builds. Congrats!!!
As enchantments I would prefer counterbalance (with senseis divining top), story circle (kinda lame, i know), words of waste, curiosity, pemmins aura (in case you don't have the greaves out), arrest (to deal with other generals), phyrexian arena and so on.
Is counterbalance/top really as good in EDH as it is in legacy? Not sold on that idea quite so much but may try it out.
Story Circle was in my pile of enchantments when I was building this deck and probably deserves a home, over Rhystic Study maybe?
Pemmin's Aura again was another I looked at. Having a psudo-morphling is always nice, but vanishing seemed to protect Zur better and apart from the pump seemed kinda irrelevant with better, less mana intensive options available.
Arrest is in there and necro is just plain better than arena.
If you're going to run Solitary Confinement, get rid of Rhystic Study and put in Phyrexian Arena or just rely on Necropotence to feed you cards. Rhystic is really more for multiplayer games. However Standstill is another nice card drawer, and even if you need to counter the spell that your opponent plays while its out it still activates for you since they played a spell first doesn't say they had to successfully cast it.
I think I will replace study as it seems redundant with necro there. BTW Standstill's triggered ability as to be allowed to resolve before you counter the spell, otherwise it will trigger again and your opp will get the cards!!
You may want to replace Spelljack since it is pretty much dead in your hand most games unless you make it that many turns in. Usually it's better to just have 2cc and 3cc counters in hand. You could replace it with Absorb, Dromar's Charm, Delay, or Undermine.
Ive already conceded this point above and will most likely add in something that cost 2 or less so I can put it on a stick. I do like the charm however...
Dont get me wrong, I love SDT! By far one of the best cards in cube, but isnt scroll rack just way better for putting enchantments from hand on top of you library?
With the spread of mana costs in EDH I just feel that counterbalance will wiff too often. That and what to take out???
Also, just found a Dromar's Cavern. Thoughts? It is basically an Arcane Sanctum that may help as Gemstone/Tendo resets AND comes into play untapped so can be used as a pseudo lotus petal if needed.
Dont get me wrong, I love SDT! By far one of the best cards in cube, but isnt scroll rack just way better for putting enchantments from hand on top of you library?
With the spread of mana costs in EDH I just feel that counterbalance will wiff too often. That and what to take out???
Scroll Rack in my experience has performed much better than Sensei's Diving Top for that very reason, like drawing Empyrial Armor on turn 2 or 3 and just wishing the rest of the game that you could put it back. With Brainstorm and Scroll Rack you can. Although the one thing I like about top that makes me want to run it with scroll rack is top can avoid artifact destruction by simply tapping it to draw a card and getting it out of the battlefield.
My only opinion on Counterbalance is that I would have to test it out in my Zur deck with a top added in to see if I like it or not. Otherwise I see no point in making the change without some actual proof that it works well in a 1v1 Zur deck.
Also, just found a Dromar's Cavern. Thoughts? It is basically an Arcane Sanctum that may help as Gemstone/Tendo resets AND comes into play untapped so can be used as a pseudo lotus petal if needed.
I've been debating whether or not to pick up that land, it seems good like you said for reseting counters on those lands and I especially like that it doesn't come into play tapped and doesn't require that you bounce and "untapped" land so you can potentially still get 2 mana on turn 2 to play a signet or something. Only downside is I don't like falling behind on land or play that cavern to watch someone boomerang it to my hand or something essentially buying them an extra turn.
Not sure if somebody already answered this, but, crucible is not banned - it was recently unbanned. But what was banned was Fastbond so you don't just land sweep people. One land a turn is annoying yeah, but unless they have like exploration or something, that's the only land they're doing a turn so they have to be high mana as is, and it's manageable.
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And Chaostheory, as for your deck getting all these compliments, I'm a little jealous since mine has been around for several months now and I never really got any remarks about it.
Oh yea and one other thing, a card that I've thought of trying in Zur for a while but I would probably proxy first is Word of Command its like a mini-Mind Slaver and you could imprint it on Isochron Scepter.
Arcane Laboratory is probably unnecessary too, but I don't really know.
I do quite like the idea of Mana Vortex, especially now that I know Crucible has been unbanned and recurring strip mine seems a lot stronger!
The Coronet is there as a boost for lifegain if I havent got solitary confinement for necropotence for whatever reason, or if I have Emp.Armour in hand. I like it but as you say it maybe win-more...
Arcane Lab is great to lock opponents out of a game and works wonders with scetper/counterspell!
As for Ravages, if you are selling one for 1/2 the price hey go on ebay, I'LL BUY 2!!!! I would love one to compliment my Armageddon (here and in my cube!).
First off, I'm interested in why you would just stick with Arrest over Prison Term?
I agree, Prison term is just better, I didnt think that the redundancy was that much of an issue but I could swap it out for Diplomatic Immunity... Especially as I have O-ring and Copy Enchantment for back-ups.
And Chaostheory, as for your deck getting all these compliments, I'm a little jealous since mine has been around for several months now and I never really got any remarks about it.
Please feel free to take all these compliments as your own too, after looking at your deck I can see that they are both rather similar (that and yours has a far better name for the deck )
Oh yea and one other thing, a card that I've thought of trying in Zur for a while but I would probably proxy first is Word of Command its like a mini-Mind Slaver and you could imprint it on Isochron Scepter.
A lot of the time are you really going to be playing a spell that is 1)crippling to your opponent and not to yourself at the same time? 2)going to be hitting a card that is legal to play and them not having played it already?
I still feel that Story Circle 'should' have a place in the deck, I just can't justify when it would be needed where other spells already in the deck would have a problem dealing with XYZ
The Coronet is there as a boost for lifegain if I havent got solitary confinement for necropotence for whatever reason, or if I have Emp.Armour in hand. I like it but as you say it maybe win-more...
I think it works just fine in the deck. It can stop other generals in their tracks mainly for giving Zur vigilance and first strike, and once you throw on Empyrial Armor if you haven't already he is just too big for most generals to get past the first strike damage, granted it they even have their general out since we have so many counterspells and removal.
As for Ravages, if you are selling one for 1/2 the price hey go on ebay, I'LL BUY 2!!!! I would love one to compliment my Armageddon (here and in my cube!).
Yea and if you happen to be selling an Imperial Seal for 1/2 price as well I'll take it off your hands, lol.
I agree, Prison term is just better, I didnt think that the redundancy was that much of an issue but I could swap it out for Diplomatic Immunity... Especially as I have O-ring and Copy Enchantment for back-ups.
Diplomatic Immunity is usually the first thing you want to tutor with Zur since it will stop their spot removal right there and the only thing you really need to counter after that is their wrath spells. Granted... I'm still a little unsure on the ruling of whether or not you can use Zur's ability to attach an aura to him while he has shroud, I've looked it up at: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=137879&highlight=zur+diplomatic+immunity and while they state that it works it is still a little shaky on one of the rules stating that the aura must be able to enchant a legal target or it goes to the graveyard.
A lot of the time are you really going to be playing a spell that is 1)crippling to your opponent and not to yourself at the same time? 2)going to be hitting a card that is legal to play and them not having played it already?
Yea Word of Command is probably just plain unecessary. Still I just like the card ever since my early days of Magic back when Urza's Saga came out and someone played it against me.
I still feel that Story Circle 'should' have a place in the deck, I just can't justify when it would be needed where other spells already in the deck would have a problem dealing with XYZ
As for Story Circle it can work pretty well especially against mono-color decks, but if you're only using it to stop general damage then Runed Halo is probably the better solution. However if your opponent is in more than 1 color I'd recommend Righteous Aura for stopping damage from different color sources. I'm not currently running any of these because I just want to be on the offense 90% of the time and if I'm ever tutoring one of them or spending mana to play one I feel I'm not trying to win in as few turns as possible. With all the other control in the deck you shouldn't really need them. I mean Solitary Confinement is probably the best fall-back plan for defense.
It really is hard to decide on what the absolute best build for Zur is since there are just sooo many good cards that can go into the deck.
Please feel free to take all these compliments as your own too, after looking at your deck I can see that they are both rather similar (that and yours has a far better name for the deck )
After a few more games, Ive realised that I hate having Mouth of Ronom in my opening 7 and it really hampers getting turn 4 Zur and I dont think that I have once used it to kill a creature... So in goes Hall of the Bandit Lord as a test to see if haste is useful or not (Im thinking yes??)
Similar to this, Fetid Heath seems unneeding of its spot as Necropotence is the only thing that really needs it to be played (normally tutored with Zur anyway) and a LOT of my spells need UU, so its been axed for Forbidden Orchard, which prob should have already been in my list!
Also cut Tolaria West (to get down to 100 cards after numbering them ascendantly... oops). Does anyone ever end up transmuting this??? I can see why you would want to find a strip mine or FoW sometimes, but not once did I use the ability
After a few more games, I've realized that I hate having Mouth of Ronom in my opening 7 and it really hampers getting turn 4 Zur and I dont think that I have once used it to kill a creature... So in goes Hall of the Bandit Lord as a test to see if haste is useful or not (Im thinking yes??)
Hall of the Bandit Lord seems ok, but I ended up cutting it in favor of more color mana for counters and I hate lands that come in to play tapped for this particular deck. You have 7 lands that CIPT. Among them is Mistveil Plains and out of curiosity how often do you actually have 2 white permanents to activate its ability when you actually need to? Cause I never have, so I cut it for another island.
Similar to this, Fetid Heath seems unneeding of its spot as Necropotence is the only thing that really needs it to be played (normally tutored with Zur anyway) and a LOT of my spells need UU, so its been axed for Forbidden Orchard, which prob should have already been in my list!
I agree the majority of the deck should rely on U and you have plenty of other things to pay for B. I'm still not that keen on Forbidden Orchard yet. But, I'll probably start carrying one around with the deck incase I know there will be a lot of decks running blue where I play. Right now though my friends run mono-white (Isamaru) and mono-black (Braids), but the Braids player is working on an Erayo deck now as well as Momir-Vig so who knows maybe I'll include it.
Also cut Tolaria West (to get down to 100 cards after numbering them ascendantly... oops). Does anyone ever end up transmuting this??? I can see why you would want to find a strip mine or FoW sometimes, but not once did I use the ability
While I haven't used it very often for its transmute ability, I like it a lot more than Mistveil Plains so I can potentially transmute when I need to for Boseiju, Stripmine, Reliquary Tower, a Fetch Land, any land really, or for Pact of Negation which is what I think you meant instead of FoW (Force of Will? which has a casting cost greater than 0).
My only other bit of advice is cut all 3 of the ravnica block bounce lands (i.e. Orzhov Basilica), as they can potentially screw you over early game if your opponent bounces one back to your hand or just straight up destroys it the turn after you put it down.
Against:
Decks with White / Black: trades 1-for-1 with removal that would have killed zur
Vendillion Clique: trades favorably with a counterspell
Rofelos: removes gas
Arcum: removes gas
Braids: removal or engine removal
dumb question that has been baffling me:
does giving zur shroud stop his ability from targeting him?
No it doesn't, as I recently found out... Because the enchantments are "put onto the battlefield", the Enchant Creature keyword on them which targets does not matter, because you are not casting the enchantments.
Also, great build here! I'll be reviewing this often to improve my own Zur.
I've been thinking about trying EDH format, and i just love Zur The Enchanter.
I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the OP list would still be up to date even thought it's not been touched since 2009.
Thank you!
It's still a solid version of Zur. I don't think I've updated mine in a long time either (in my sig if you wanna see it) but I'm sure that they both still work really well since the game plan is strong and there is a lot of countermagic to deal with your opponent's stuff and several removal spells as well. The only thing different that I've seen newer versions of Zur lists try to accomplish is killing people with infect using: Phyresis + Unspeakable Symbol. Other than those two cards the lists are all still basically the same. Spell Crumple, Mental Misstep, Spell Snare, and Dispel are the only new counters to consider for a Zur list.
Does Phyresis really belong in Zur? By the time you would get this on him you have already started to swing with general damage. I would rather play cards like Duress to help stop silly things happening to Zur. How about Gitaxian Probe as well? Cards that let you peak at their hand for little or no mana could be great to know when it's clear to play Zur and how much counter backup you need to go the distance.
The more I play my Zur build the smaller and smaller his tutor package becomes. IMO the better builds have a more streamline package of Zur targets and more cards to protect the strategy.
Does Phyresis really belong in Zur? By the time you would get this on him you have already started to swing with general damage. I would rather play cards like Duress to help stop silly things happening to Zur. How about Gitaxian Probe as well? Cards that let you peak at their hand for little or no mana could be great to know when it's clear to play Zur and how much counter backup you need to go the distance.
The more I play my Zur build the smaller and smaller his tutor package becomes. IMO the better builds have a more streamline package of Zur targets and more cards to protect the strategy.
I agree with you 100%. I've been playing zur off and on for a while. I initially had around 13 enchantments. Now I'm down to 8. I try to only play enchantments that are good cards by itself. Of course there are some exceptions like Emphyrial Armor and Steel of the Godhead.
emphyrial armor
copy enchantment
necropotence
Steel of the godhead
oblivion ring
aura of silence
phyrexian arena
dark tutelage
I've been thinking about trying EDH format, and i just love Zur The Enchanter.
I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the OP list would still be up to date even thought it's not been touched since 2009.
Thank you!
The OP list isn't very good in my opinion. PM me if you're interested in a list. I've won 90-95% of my games with Zur in the last 12-18 months playing him off and on. In fact, i've yet to lose with him in the small edh tournaments we have locally. Although, usually I play sygg in the tournaments.
Does Phyresis really belong in Zur? By the time you would get this on him you have already started to swing with general damage. I would rather play cards like Duress to help stop silly things happening to Zur. How about Gitaxian Probe as well? Cards that let you peak at their hand for little or no mana could be great to know when it's clear to play Zur and how much counter backup you need to go the distance.
The more I play my Zur build the smaller and smaller his tutor package becomes. IMO the better builds have a more streamline package of Zur targets and more cards to protect the strategy.
Yes Gitaxian Probe is another good option and no Phyresis + Unspeakable Symbol are not required to be in the list. I was just commenting that it was another strategy that I've seen in a Zur list here on the forums in recent months. Another card that probably deserves a spot is Spellskite.
I agree with you 100%. I've been playing zur off and on for a while. I initially had around 13 enchantments. Now I'm down to 8. I try to only play enchantments that are good cards by itself. Of course there are some exceptions like Empyrial Armor and Steel of the Godhead.
I'd say Vanishing and Diplomatic Immunity are still great cards to run in Zur lists and in fact they're still in your list according to the link down below.
The OP list isn't very good in my opinion. PM me if you're interested in a list. I've won 90-95% of my games with Zur in the last 12-18 months playing him off and on. In fact, i've yet to lose with him in the small edh tournaments we have locally. Although, usually I play sygg in the tournaments.
I'm certain this list is still very solid (since I've run a similar list for a long time) and your list may be more cutthroat and up to date but why ask him to message you instead of just posting a link to your list like so: Simbayu's Zur list
There are 2 'locks' on top of the aggressive Zur beats: i) Counterspell or equivalent on scepter with arcane lab down ii) Necropotence and Solitary Confinement, preferably with Greater Auramancy down.
This is designed for a 1v1 dual and not multiplayer games.
Rhystic Study --> Standstill
Spelljack --> Delay
Arrest --> Diplomatic Immunity
Mouth of Ronom --> Hall of the Bandit Lord
Fetid Heath --> Forbidden Orchard
Tolaria West --> Down to 100 cards, OOPS!
1 Zur the Enchanter
Creatures (1)
2 Auramancer
Enchantments (15)
3 Empyrial Armour
4 Daybreak Coronet
5 Steel of the Godhead
6 Vanishing
7 Greater Auramancy
8 Prison Term
9 Diplomatic Immunity
10 Oblivion Ring
11 Arcane Laboratory
12 Standstill
13 Solitary Confinement
14 Aura of Silence
15 Necropotence
16 Declaration of Naught
17 Copy Enchantmen
Removal (7)
18 Vidicate
19 Mortify
20 Condemn
21 Swords to Plowshares
22 Path to Exile
23 Capsize
24 Winds of Rath
Tutors (4)
25 Mystic Tutor
26 Demonic Tutor
27 Vampiric Tutor
28 Brainstorm
Counter Spells (17)
29 Force of Will
30 Misdirection
31 Dissipate
32 Arcane Denial
33 Mana Drain
34 Cryptic Command
35 Muddle the Mixture
36 Dismiss
37 Hinder
38 Delay
39 Power Sink
40 Memory Lapse
41 Mana Leak
42 Counterspell
43 Miscalculation
44 Pack of Negation
45 Forbid
46 Sol Ring
47 Talisman of Progress
48 Talisman of Dominance
49 Azorius Signet
50 Orzhov Signet
51 Dimir Signet
52 Lotus Petal
53 Coalition Relic
54 Chrome Mox
55 Mox Diamond
56 Mana Crypt
57 Isochron Scepter
58 Lightning Greaves
59 Scroll Rack
Bonus (4)
60 Replenish
61 Sunder
62 Orim's Chant
63 Armageddon
Lands (37)
64 Scrubland
65 Tundra
66 Underground Sea
67 Watery Grave
68 Hallowed Foutain
69 Godless Shrine
70 Forbidden Orchard
71 Mystic Gate
72 Sunken Ruins
73 Orzhov Basilica
74 Dimir Aqueduct
75 Azorius Chancery
76 Adarkar Wastes
77 Underground River
78 Caves of Koilos
79 Arcane Sanctum
80 Gemstone Mine
81 City of Brass
82 Exotic Orchard
83 Windswept Heath
84 Flooded Strand
85 Polluted Delta
86 Bloodstained Mire
87 Reliquary Tower
88 Strip Mine
89 Hall of the Bandit Lord
90 Flagstones of Trokair
91 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
92 Maze of Ith
93 Mistveil Plains
94 Snow-Covered Plains
95 Snow-Covered Swamp
Trading
You need hall of the bandit lord . This will allow Zur to attack right away. I would either take out reliquary tower or misveil plains .
I would probably replaced lightning greaves for sensei's divining top . If not another card for it. I don't know.
power sink for rune snag if the purpose to stop early threats with counter magic.
bribery for sunder . Although both of these feels like a win more card, I probably go with the latter. Once you attack with Zur once or twice a bribery is unnecessary. You would probably want to protect Zur more and Sunder does a better job at that.
You deck is missing a mana vault . Mana vault is good in any deck and this would help out with turn one signet, talisman, or another good accerlerator. The faster you can drop Zur the more chances he'll be around when you can untap and have counter magic to protect him.
Some of the cards I feel is unnecessary in your build is:
winds of rath . If you can attach with Zur once, you should be able to fetch something to deal with what is on the field. Your counter magic should be able to stop any threat your opponent would have on the battlefield. Even at best, your opponent would have two creatures unless you are going against some crazy token generating deck. If that was the case fetch for solitary confinement .
replenish why?? If you had to cast replenish while you have Zur in play there is something wrong...and if it was in your hand before you cast Zur it is a dead card. If you attack you shouldn't need to cast this. So, it can probably be cut.
spelljack another win more card. This can be replaced with more lower casting cost counter magic or spot removal.
Again great great deck list and I might have to steal this one from you. I wanted to build a competitive Zur deck but haven't had the time since I am always working and tweaking Arcum. This is again is probably one of the best builds. Congrats!!!
I agree that Sunder should go in and Replenish out. Sunder is instant speed so you can do it at the end of your opponents turn which means you can leave counter mana open up until that point. Bribery should probably be cut as well or at least change it to Desertion so your opponent is wasting the mana to summon a creature that you will be stealing. Another option might be replace Bribery with another spot removal like Doomblade, Oblation, Spin into Myth. Or if you're worried about losing your lands or want to re-use your fetch lands you can include Crucible of Worlds.
Keep Lightning Geaves in.
If you're going to run Solitary Confinement, get rid of Rhystic Study and put in Phyrexian Arena or just rely on Necropotence to feed you cards. Rhystic is really more for multiplayer games. However Standstill is another nice card drawer, and even if you need to counter the spell that your opponent plays while its out it still activates for you since they played a spell first doesn't say they had to successfully cast it.
I like Orim's Chant I should grab one of those and straight up replace Silence with it for my 1v1 version.
You may want to replace Spelljack since it is pretty much dead in your hand most games unless you make it that many turns in. Usually it's better to just have 2cc and 3cc counters in hand. You could replace it with Absorb, Dromar's Charm, Delay, or Undermine.
Anyways, I need to get to sleep, good job on tuning it this much already. I'm sure you'll be crushing people's hopes and dreams in no time.
I see what you mean about the haste, but then again how often do you want to have him attacking turn 4 with no counter/vanishing mana up?? Tower is just way too good with necro/empyrical armour! And the plains are fantastic at "re-tutoring" destroyed enchantments with zur.
Greaves are fantastic in this deck, its just a shame you cant always tutor them in time...
As far as Power Sink goes, it is great a bit later in the game, especially if you are playing against a control deck so that you force them to tap all their mana giving you a free turn to cast spells (minus pact and FoW).
I 100% agree. I had geddon already in and this is just a wonderful card. The only thing like this that I could think of was upheaval
1) Winds are a backup incase an army gets out of control, Ive missed some counter oppertunities, shroud guys, etc. The major bonus is that 99% of the time Zur will hang around afterwards!
2)Replenish is there again if things go wrong. You can always expect a smooth run of the right cards so if Zur dies to a sudden death kinda spell or something like austere command resolves ,this allows you to get everything back again...
3)Spelljack is more for counter wars stealing cryptics or FoWs. But Ill concede that i can prob be replaced for something like desertion which I love in my cube!
Thank you again and good luck!
Is counterbalance/top really as good in EDH as it is in legacy? Not sold on that idea quite so much but may try it out.
Story Circle was in my pile of enchantments when I was building this deck and probably deserves a home, over Rhystic Study maybe?
Pemmin's Aura again was another I looked at. Having a psudo-morphling is always nice, but vanishing seemed to protect Zur better and apart from the pump seemed kinda irrelevant with better, less mana intensive options available.
Arrest is in there and necro is just plain better than arena.
I thought that the Crucible was banned because of its interaction with strip mine? Dont worry greaves are going nowhere
I think I will replace study as it seems redundant with necro there. BTW Standstill's triggered ability as to be allowed to resolve before you counter the spell, otherwise it will trigger again and your opp will get the cards!!
Seems an easy upgrade.
Ive already conceded this point above and will most likely add in something that cost 2 or less so I can put it on a stick. I do like the charm however...
Thats the plan!!!
Thank you all for your input!
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With the spread of mana costs in EDH I just feel that counterbalance will wiff too often. That and what to take out???
Also, just found a Dromar's Cavern. Thoughts? It is basically an Arcane Sanctum that may help as Gemstone/Tendo resets AND comes into play untapped so can be used as a pseudo lotus petal if needed.
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Scroll Rack in my experience has performed much better than Sensei's Diving Top for that very reason, like drawing Empyrial Armor on turn 2 or 3 and just wishing the rest of the game that you could put it back. With Brainstorm and Scroll Rack you can. Although the one thing I like about top that makes me want to run it with scroll rack is top can avoid artifact destruction by simply tapping it to draw a card and getting it out of the battlefield.
My only opinion on Counterbalance is that I would have to test it out in my Zur deck with a top added in to see if I like it or not. Otherwise I see no point in making the change without some actual proof that it works well in a 1v1 Zur deck.
I've been debating whether or not to pick up that land, it seems good like you said for reseting counters on those lands and I especially like that it doesn't come into play tapped and doesn't require that you bounce and "untapped" land so you can potentially still get 2 mana on turn 2 to play a signet or something. Only downside is I don't like falling behind on land or play that cavern to watch someone boomerang it to my hand or something essentially buying them an extra turn.
Have you considered Mana Vortex for tutorable mana denial? Or possibly Ravages of War as Armageddon #2, if you can track one down?
Daybreak Coronet is for sure win-more. I don't think you need both Prison Term and Arrest either. I'd just stick with Arrest.
Arcane Laboratory is probably unnecessary too, but I don't really know.
First off, I'm interested in why you would just stick with Arrest over Prison Term?
Daybreak Coronet helped me finish off an opponent the turn I attached it to Zur instead of putting him at 1 had I grabbed Steel of the Godhead. I already had Diplomatic Immunity, Vanishing, and Empyrial Armor at the time and my opponent was at 11, granted if I was running Copy Enchantment I could've chosen it to copy Empyrial Armor and gone for over-kill with the 7 cards in-hand. I don't feel Copy Enchantment is necessary in a 1v1 Zur but it has potential depending on whats on the field.
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And Chaostheory, as for your deck getting all these compliments, I'm a little jealous since mine has been around for several months now and I never really got any remarks about it.
Oh yea and one other thing, a card that I've thought of trying in Zur for a while but I would probably proxy first is Word of Command its like a mini-Mind Slaver and you could imprint it on Isochron Scepter.
The Coronet is there as a boost for lifegain if I havent got solitary confinement for necropotence for whatever reason, or if I have Emp.Armour in hand. I like it but as you say it maybe win-more...
Arcane Lab is great to lock opponents out of a game and works wonders with scetper/counterspell!
As for Ravages, if you are selling one for 1/2 the price hey go on ebay, I'LL BUY 2!!!! I would love one to compliment my Armageddon (here and in my cube!).
I agree, Prison term is just better, I didnt think that the redundancy was that much of an issue but I could swap it out for Diplomatic Immunity... Especially as I have O-ring and Copy Enchantment for back-ups.
Really? I loce Copy Enchantment. It lets me play 2 copys of which ever enchantment I really need in my deck. I definitely suggest trying it!
Please feel free to take all these compliments as your own too, after looking at your deck I can see that they are both rather similar (that and yours has a far better name for the deck )
A lot of the time are you really going to be playing a spell that is 1)crippling to your opponent and not to yourself at the same time? 2)going to be hitting a card that is legal to play and them not having played it already?
I still feel that Story Circle 'should' have a place in the deck, I just can't justify when it would be needed where other spells already in the deck would have a problem dealing with XYZ
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It's hard enough building the deck the way it is, what could be cut for Crucible of Worlds and Mana Vortex?
I think it works just fine in the deck. It can stop other generals in their tracks mainly for giving Zur vigilance and first strike, and once you throw on Empyrial Armor if you haven't already he is just too big for most generals to get past the first strike damage, granted it they even have their general out since we have so many counterspells and removal.
yup yup
Yea and if you happen to be selling an Imperial Seal for 1/2 price as well I'll take it off your hands, lol.
Diplomatic Immunity is usually the first thing you want to tutor with Zur since it will stop their spot removal right there and the only thing you really need to counter after that is their wrath spells. Granted... I'm still a little unsure on the ruling of whether or not you can use Zur's ability to attach an aura to him while he has shroud, I've looked it up at: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=137879&highlight=zur+diplomatic+immunity and while they state that it works it is still a little shaky on one of the rules stating that the aura must be able to enchant a legal target or it goes to the graveyard.
Yea I'll probably give it a go this weekend since I'll have Monday off to play more Magic.
Yea Word of Command is probably just plain unecessary. Still I just like the card ever since my early days of Magic back when Urza's Saga came out and someone played it against me.
As for Story Circle it can work pretty well especially against mono-color decks, but if you're only using it to stop general damage then Runed Halo is probably the better solution. However if your opponent is in more than 1 color I'd recommend Righteous Aura for stopping damage from different color sources. I'm not currently running any of these because I just want to be on the offense 90% of the time and if I'm ever tutoring one of them or spending mana to play one I feel I'm not trying to win in as few turns as possible. With all the other control in the deck you shouldn't really need them. I mean Solitary Confinement is probably the best fall-back plan for defense.
It really is hard to decide on what the absolute best build for Zur is since there are just sooo many good cards that can go into the deck.
Thanks for the deck name compliment.
Similar to this, Fetid Heath seems unneeding of its spot as Necropotence is the only thing that really needs it to be played (normally tutored with Zur anyway) and a LOT of my spells need UU, so its been axed for Forbidden Orchard, which prob should have already been in my list!
Also cut Tolaria West (to get down to 100 cards after numbering them ascendantly... oops). Does anyone ever end up transmuting this??? I can see why you would want to find a strip mine or FoW sometimes, but not once did I use the ability
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Hall of the Bandit Lord seems ok, but I ended up cutting it in favor of more color mana for counters and I hate lands that come in to play tapped for this particular deck. You have 7 lands that CIPT. Among them is Mistveil Plains and out of curiosity how often do you actually have 2 white permanents to activate its ability when you actually need to? Cause I never have, so I cut it for another island.
I agree the majority of the deck should rely on U and you have plenty of other things to pay for B. I'm still not that keen on Forbidden Orchard yet. But, I'll probably start carrying one around with the deck incase I know there will be a lot of decks running blue where I play. Right now though my friends run mono-white (Isamaru) and mono-black (Braids), but the Braids player is working on an Erayo deck now as well as Momir-Vig so who knows maybe I'll include it.
While I haven't used it very often for its transmute ability, I like it a lot more than Mistveil Plains so I can potentially transmute when I need to for Boseiju, Stripmine, Reliquary Tower, a Fetch Land, any land really, or for Pact of Negation which is what I think you meant instead of FoW (Force of Will? which has a casting cost greater than 0).
My only other bit of advice is cut all 3 of the ravnica block bounce lands (i.e. Orzhov Basilica), as they can potentially screw you over early game if your opponent bounces one back to your hand or just straight up destroys it the turn after you put it down.
Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
VERY CHEAP LEGACY SALE (priced to move before April 09!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8172551#post8172551
I'd say that over Daybreak Coronet.
Modern
UWRJeskai ControlRWU
RWGBurnGWR
Legacy
UWStonebladeWU
Duress
Thoughtsieze
Unmask
Addle
Persecute
Distress (maybe)
Against:
Decks with White / Black: trades 1-for-1 with removal that would have killed zur
Vendillion Clique: trades favorably with a counterspell
Rofelos: removes gas
Arcum: removes gas
Braids: removal or engine removal
does giving zur shroud stop his ability from targeting him?
Also, great build here! I'll be reviewing this often to improve my own Zur.
I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the OP list would still be up to date even thought it's not been touched since 2009.
Thank you!
It's still a solid version of Zur. I don't think I've updated mine in a long time either (in my sig if you wanna see it) but I'm sure that they both still work really well since the game plan is strong and there is a lot of countermagic to deal with your opponent's stuff and several removal spells as well. The only thing different that I've seen newer versions of Zur lists try to accomplish is killing people with infect using: Phyresis + Unspeakable Symbol. Other than those two cards the lists are all still basically the same. Spell Crumple, Mental Misstep, Spell Snare, and Dispel are the only new counters to consider for a Zur list.
EDIT: Also Gitaxian Probe and maybe Spellskite.
I'll take a look at your list!
The more I play my Zur build the smaller and smaller his tutor package becomes. IMO the better builds have a more streamline package of Zur targets and more cards to protect the strategy.
I agree with you 100%. I've been playing zur off and on for a while. I initially had around 13 enchantments. Now I'm down to 8. I try to only play enchantments that are good cards by itself. Of course there are some exceptions like Emphyrial Armor and Steel of the Godhead.
emphyrial armor
copy enchantment
necropotence
Steel of the godhead
oblivion ring
aura of silence
phyrexian arena
dark tutelage
The OP list isn't very good in my opinion. PM me if you're interested in a list. I've won 90-95% of my games with Zur in the last 12-18 months playing him off and on. In fact, i've yet to lose with him in the small edh tournaments we have locally. Although, usually I play sygg in the tournaments.
Yes Gitaxian Probe is another good option and no Phyresis + Unspeakable Symbol are not required to be in the list. I was just commenting that it was another strategy that I've seen in a Zur list here on the forums in recent months. Another card that probably deserves a spot is Spellskite.
I'd say Vanishing and Diplomatic Immunity are still great cards to run in Zur lists and in fact they're still in your list according to the link down below.
I'm certain this list is still very solid (since I've run a similar list for a long time) and your list may be more cutthroat and up to date but why ask him to message you instead of just posting a link to your list like so: Simbayu's Zur list
If it is out of date then simply update it.