This is the list ... as near as I remember it. Some of the card choices are a bit counter-intuitive due to some potentially anti-synergistic card interactions. One example of this would be the interaction between Nath of the Gilt-Leaf and Uba Mask. Inclusion of Uba Mask is based on the card's overall power level despite its sometimes questionable synergy with Nath (ie when they no longer have a hand and I'm out a token generator).
The deck's main focus is prison: actively deny land/mana production while preemptively removing potential answers for any sort of recovery. Of course, a strategy like this doesn't really even need to take place in some games... a significant portion of people I've played against scoop to a resolved Contamination.
If you have any thoughts, questions on card choice (or about anything else for that matter), or comments/recommendations I'd like to hear them. I'll try to spend as much time responding to your feedback as you spend giving me some Also, if you have a decklist you'd like me to check out, just let me know.
Sadistic Hypnotist is an absolute auto-include in this deck. Very nasty combo with Nath.
Explain something to me about your strategy, because I've seen a few people trying to make a combination land destruction/discard deck with Nath. I don't get it.
The philosophy of land destruction is "I don't care what you have in your hand, because you're not going to have enough mana to cast any of it." The philosophy of discard is "I don't care how much mana you have, because you don't have anything left to cast."
Do you see how these strategies are contradictory? If you succeed at one of them, the other is largely irrelevant. Because of this, it seems silly to me to try to cram both strategies into the same deck--you'd be better off focusing on one, and ensuring that you have enough discard or land destruction to get the job done.
I probably should have specified that I have no real interest in multiplayer; I built this deck with duels (and only duels) in mind.
I think Sadistic Hypnotist is indeed a powerful card, especially when used in conjunction with Nath, but without Nath is somewhat slow and clunky. He's great if you're able to cast him with a sac-worthy creature on the board already (ideally a token from Bitterblossom/Nath), because it's a 4 for 2 at the cost of 5 mana. However, if you are unable to sacrifice two creatures the turn you drop him, he's kind of trashy. This is the scenario that has dissuaded me from including Hypnotist.
The deck originally had much less discard. I opted to play Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Mind Twist (from the start) due to the power level of the cards. I added Stupor and Bottomless Pit recently because my land/permanent denial was not consistent enough. I play what I believe to be the strongest land destruction in black and green (I am actively staying away from 1GG CC land destruction spells due to the curve/land balance in the deck), and the hand disruption serves to neuter an opponent's ability to rebound from the early harassment. Most of my discard spells are random effects or of my choice so they don't have the opportunity to selectively discard their unplayable spells.
Land destruction and hand destruction are only contradictory strategies when you commit largely to one or the other. I don't believe there are enough good cards to allow a focused approach in a singleton format using either of these strategies.
Pernicious Deeds and Dustbowl have been intentionally omitted from the decklist.
Deeds seems good on paper, sure. In fact, it seems really good. Why? Because every deck that has ever played Deeds has made extremely good use of the card. In my deck, Deeds is an overcosted board wipe that hurts me more than my opponent. Bye bye tokens, bye bye artifact mana, and bye bye to most of my creatures. That's really, really bad. Deeds is a terrible card for this deck.
Dust Bowl is not nearly as bad, and the main reason it isn't included is because it doesn't produce colored mana. Colored mana is at a premium in this deck, with the curve requiring BB on turn 2-3 every time while still wanting G turn 1-2. The only colorless sources I play are sources that add more than 1 mana, ie Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb. So the question is: is this a worthwhile trade--giving up colored mana for slow land harassment? I don't think it is, and that's why Dust Bowl didn't make it.
Why do you have soooo much artifact destruction? I will certainly agree that some solid artifact kill is good in EDH, but wtf? Like 10 spells that basically just kill artifacts?
Pernicious Deed is just too good to pass up. I would argue that it is one of the reasons to play with G/B, because the card is that good.
Deed is a selective mass-destruction tool. Not only does it wipe out creatures, but artifacts and enchantments as well. Deed is great against decks that love using artifact mana to accelerate and wipes out critical enchantments as well. It's also simply amazing when you need to keep one of your big guys alive (like Nath) but need to kill all the small stuff that could cause problems.
If you don't want to be ruined by a Deed when it blows up all your artifacts, consider playing traditional green mana ramp spells in their place.
Why do I play artifact destruction? Because all strong decks take advantage of artifacts... especially mana artifacts. Every good deck will play Crypt/Vault/Ring, and the vast majority of decks play other amazing artifacts.
And once again, Pernicious Deed is terrible in this deck. You're suggesting I remove my artifact ramp to make Deed a good inclusion? So I should cut Vault, Ring, Crypt, Signet, Heart, BoP, EoDS, etc, etc ... to make Deed a good card in my deck? You suggest I play 'traditional green mana ramp spells'? Like what? Rampant Growth? Harrow? Are you kidding? That seems like a pretty terrible idea.
You don't need to cut those to include Deed. Deed is just good as an out for those sticky situations that WILL happen. Sometimes you need to wipe the board - including your early plays - in order to survive.
Besides, you're not going to have your entire deck in play when you blow Pernicious Deed. And there are ways to recur things, especially in GB. You've got Regrowth and Eternal Witness, but you could also include Restock and something that definitely should be included regardless: Yawgmoth's Will. I'd also suggest some card draw. Harmonize, Ambition's Cost, Decree of Pain (which is ridiculous), etc. Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library should have a spot here too. Also, for mass discard check out Cabal Conditioning.
Decree of Pain -- I'll never be able to hardcast this. Five mana for an infest is unacceptable in this deck. Barter in Blood is a better choice at four mana, killing relevant creatures. 2/2's don't scare me.
Yawgmoth's Will -- Sure, like Deed, this card has seen broken play in other formats. Yes, it's a powerful card. In my deck? What on earth am I going to do? Tap 6, cast Will and replay Ice Storm? I mean, this is like a worse Regrowth/Witness. I would never have enough mana to break this card. Games don't go on long enough for me to reach more than ~8 land.
Harmonize/Ambition's Cost/etc -- I used to play with both Harmonize and Ambition's Cost. They're actually not terrible, but they were eventually cut because they did little to affect the game state. Taking an entire turn to tap out and cast a non-permanent doesn't help this deck out in most situations. I added permanent card draw and replaced these cards (though I think I might still be playing Night's Whisper).
Sensei's Diving Top -- I've actually been considering this card. I think I have ~10-12 shuffle effects, and I have two dredge effects, so while this card isn't terribly broken, it's not extremely mediocre either. I think my next iteration of this deck will include top--I'll see how it actually plays.
Sylvan Library -- This is another card that I've been considering (though I feel like it's probably not as strong as top). This mainly has to do with the trigger being non-controllable. Of course, Sylvan Library DOES give the option to draw extra cards at 4 life a piece, and this deck certainly doesn't shy away from life loss. I will probably playtest this card with top in the next build.
Cabal Conditioning -- I think this card has only ever seen play (and I stress limited play) in Block Constructed. This card is much better for multiplayer than duels, mainly due to it's multi-targeting and huge mana cost. I would play Sadistic Hypnotist, Mindslicer, and/or Delirium Skeins before I played Cabal Conditioning.
Pernicious Deed -- Let me break down exactly why I don't play it. I'll start by saying that it was originally in the deck. I mean, why wouldn't it make the cut, right? It's an amazing card. Deed hits artifacts, enchantments, and creatures. Let's talk about artifacts first. In my deck, I am probably most scared (out of the three previously mentioned types of permanents) of artifacts. Why? Because they are quick mana accel. I'm playing prison, I don't like people to have mana. I'm playing LD, I don't want people to be able to produce mana without lands. So yeah, mass artifact removal is awesome. There is one catch, however, and that is that I blow up all of my artifact mana ... and that is NOT a good thing. I play a huge amount of artifact removal as it is for exactly this reason: I love artifact removal, and I love one-sided artifact removal. The vast majority of time, if I'm trying to clear artifacts with Deed, it's going to be an overcosted and relatively even exchange. Next up, enchantments. I think I have like ... two cards that deal with enchantments. Acidic Slime and Creeping Mold (though Braids and Smokestack can obviously require players to sacrifice their enchantments). I am well aware that I play so few enchantment removal spells. Why? Because I don't care. The best enchantment against me is probably Bitterblossom and I don't think I've ever seen someone else play it (though I'm not sure why not). Things like Privileged Position, Ivory Mask , etc should hose this deck... but I've never lost with these cards on the board. These cards are too slow against my deck and don't really disrupt my game plan. If there were a lot of enchantments that were low cost that destroyed me, I might consider playing Deed ... but I would try single target removal like Krosan Grip (which arguably should be in the deck anyway) first. Lastly, creatures. No one plays aggro where I live. I doubt many people anywhere play aggro EDH. Why? Because it's pretty terrible. Regardless of whether or not the archetype is terrible though, I just never have to play against it where I live. So, what type of creatures do I have to deal with? Overcosted fatties or creatures with good abilities. Deed is pretty bad against only a few creatures, especially when they're high mana creatures. Edicts/Barter/Damnation are much better. So ... if I'm not going to be happy with activating Deed to clear any one set of permanent types, I'm not going to be happy about activating it to clear all permanent types.
I guess I should probably say that my main focus for this deck is making it faster and more consistent. I'm currently considering Chrome Mox, Top, Library, and more cheap, strong discard.
Have you tried "spreading algae"? Tutor up a Tomb and have-at it. Even if you end up destroying the land it's on, A) it's 1 mana and B) you get it back - no worries, hazza!
Also, Verdant Catacombs and Temple of the False God are decent.
The philosophy of land destruction is "I don't care what you have in your hand, because you're not going to have enough mana to cast any of it." The philosophy of discard is "I don't care how much mana you have, because you don't have anything left to cast."
Do you see how these strategies are contradictory?
Khymera, have you ever seen the deck's in Legacy known as Mono-Black Aggro, and Eva Green? These decks both focus on Discard AND Land Destruction to a surprising extent. So much so that they are their primary strategies. These two strategies are not contradictory in these decks. I sort of view decks with these strategies as the Eva Green and Mono-Black Aggro of EDH so to speak.
Chrisrawr, I would suggest you read the main forum rules, specifically the part about necroing a thread.
Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
Creatures
Artifacts
Sorceries
Instants
Enchantments
Planeswalker
Liliana Vess
Land
Forest x8
Swamp x14
This is the list ... as near as I remember it. Some of the card choices are a bit counter-intuitive due to some potentially anti-synergistic card interactions. One example of this would be the interaction between Nath of the Gilt-Leaf and Uba Mask. Inclusion of Uba Mask is based on the card's overall power level despite its sometimes questionable synergy with Nath (ie when they no longer have a hand and I'm out a token generator).
The deck's main focus is prison: actively deny land/mana production while preemptively removing potential answers for any sort of recovery. Of course, a strategy like this doesn't really even need to take place in some games... a significant portion of people I've played against scoop to a resolved Contamination.
If you have any thoughts, questions on card choice (or about anything else for that matter), or comments/recommendations I'd like to hear them. I'll try to spend as much time responding to your feedback as you spend giving me some Also, if you have a decklist you'd like me to check out, just let me know.
Explain something to me about your strategy, because I've seen a few people trying to make a combination land destruction/discard deck with Nath. I don't get it.
The philosophy of land destruction is "I don't care what you have in your hand, because you're not going to have enough mana to cast any of it." The philosophy of discard is "I don't care how much mana you have, because you don't have anything left to cast."
Do you see how these strategies are contradictory? If you succeed at one of them, the other is largely irrelevant. Because of this, it seems silly to me to try to cram both strategies into the same deck--you'd be better off focusing on one, and ensuring that you have enough discard or land destruction to get the job done.
I think Sadistic Hypnotist is indeed a powerful card, especially when used in conjunction with Nath, but without Nath is somewhat slow and clunky. He's great if you're able to cast him with a sac-worthy creature on the board already (ideally a token from Bitterblossom/Nath), because it's a 4 for 2 at the cost of 5 mana. However, if you are unable to sacrifice two creatures the turn you drop him, he's kind of trashy. This is the scenario that has dissuaded me from including Hypnotist.
The deck originally had much less discard. I opted to play Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Mind Twist (from the start) due to the power level of the cards. I added Stupor and Bottomless Pit recently because my land/permanent denial was not consistent enough. I play what I believe to be the strongest land destruction in black and green (I am actively staying away from 1GG CC land destruction spells due to the curve/land balance in the deck), and the hand disruption serves to neuter an opponent's ability to rebound from the early harassment. Most of my discard spells are random effects or of my choice so they don't have the opportunity to selectively discard their unplayable spells.
Land destruction and hand destruction are only contradictory strategies when you commit largely to one or the other. I don't believe there are enough good cards to allow a focused approach in a singleton format using either of these strategies.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Edit: and Gemstone Mine seems unnecessary.
twitter.com/bccarlso
Deeds seems good on paper, sure. In fact, it seems really good. Why? Because every deck that has ever played Deeds has made extremely good use of the card. In my deck, Deeds is an overcosted board wipe that hurts me more than my opponent. Bye bye tokens, bye bye artifact mana, and bye bye to most of my creatures. That's really, really bad. Deeds is a terrible card for this deck.
Dust Bowl is not nearly as bad, and the main reason it isn't included is because it doesn't produce colored mana. Colored mana is at a premium in this deck, with the curve requiring BB on turn 2-3 every time while still wanting G turn 1-2. The only colorless sources I play are sources that add more than 1 mana, ie Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb. So the question is: is this a worthwhile trade--giving up colored mana for slow land harassment? I don't think it is, and that's why Dust Bowl didn't make it.
Deed is a selective mass-destruction tool. Not only does it wipe out creatures, but artifacts and enchantments as well. Deed is great against decks that love using artifact mana to accelerate and wipes out critical enchantments as well. It's also simply amazing when you need to keep one of your big guys alive (like Nath) but need to kill all the small stuff that could cause problems.
If you don't want to be ruined by a Deed when it blows up all your artifacts, consider playing traditional green mana ramp spells in their place.
And once again, Pernicious Deed is terrible in this deck. You're suggesting I remove my artifact ramp to make Deed a good inclusion? So I should cut Vault, Ring, Crypt, Signet, Heart, BoP, EoDS, etc, etc ... to make Deed a good card in my deck? You suggest I play 'traditional green mana ramp spells'? Like what? Rampant Growth? Harrow? Are you kidding? That seems like a pretty terrible idea.
Yawgmoth's Will -- Sure, like Deed, this card has seen broken play in other formats. Yes, it's a powerful card. In my deck? What on earth am I going to do? Tap 6, cast Will and replay Ice Storm? I mean, this is like a worse Regrowth/Witness. I would never have enough mana to break this card. Games don't go on long enough for me to reach more than ~8 land.
Harmonize/Ambition's Cost/etc -- I used to play with both Harmonize and Ambition's Cost. They're actually not terrible, but they were eventually cut because they did little to affect the game state. Taking an entire turn to tap out and cast a non-permanent doesn't help this deck out in most situations. I added permanent card draw and replaced these cards (though I think I might still be playing Night's Whisper).
Sensei's Diving Top -- I've actually been considering this card. I think I have ~10-12 shuffle effects, and I have two dredge effects, so while this card isn't terribly broken, it's not extremely mediocre either. I think my next iteration of this deck will include top--I'll see how it actually plays.
Sylvan Library -- This is another card that I've been considering (though I feel like it's probably not as strong as top). This mainly has to do with the trigger being non-controllable. Of course, Sylvan Library DOES give the option to draw extra cards at 4 life a piece, and this deck certainly doesn't shy away from life loss. I will probably playtest this card with top in the next build.
Cabal Conditioning -- I think this card has only ever seen play (and I stress limited play) in Block Constructed. This card is much better for multiplayer than duels, mainly due to it's multi-targeting and huge mana cost. I would play Sadistic Hypnotist, Mindslicer, and/or Delirium Skeins before I played Cabal Conditioning.
Pernicious Deed -- Let me break down exactly why I don't play it. I'll start by saying that it was originally in the deck. I mean, why wouldn't it make the cut, right? It's an amazing card. Deed hits artifacts, enchantments, and creatures. Let's talk about artifacts first. In my deck, I am probably most scared (out of the three previously mentioned types of permanents) of artifacts. Why? Because they are quick mana accel. I'm playing prison, I don't like people to have mana. I'm playing LD, I don't want people to be able to produce mana without lands. So yeah, mass artifact removal is awesome. There is one catch, however, and that is that I blow up all of my artifact mana ... and that is NOT a good thing. I play a huge amount of artifact removal as it is for exactly this reason: I love artifact removal, and I love one-sided artifact removal. The vast majority of time, if I'm trying to clear artifacts with Deed, it's going to be an overcosted and relatively even exchange. Next up, enchantments. I think I have like ... two cards that deal with enchantments. Acidic Slime and Creeping Mold (though Braids and Smokestack can obviously require players to sacrifice their enchantments). I am well aware that I play so few enchantment removal spells. Why? Because I don't care. The best enchantment against me is probably Bitterblossom and I don't think I've ever seen someone else play it (though I'm not sure why not). Things like Privileged Position, Ivory Mask , etc should hose this deck... but I've never lost with these cards on the board. These cards are too slow against my deck and don't really disrupt my game plan. If there were a lot of enchantments that were low cost that destroyed me, I might consider playing Deed ... but I would try single target removal like Krosan Grip (which arguably should be in the deck anyway) first. Lastly, creatures. No one plays aggro where I live. I doubt many people anywhere play aggro EDH. Why? Because it's pretty terrible. Regardless of whether or not the archetype is terrible though, I just never have to play against it where I live. So, what type of creatures do I have to deal with? Overcosted fatties or creatures with good abilities. Deed is pretty bad against only a few creatures, especially when they're high mana creatures. Edicts/Barter/Damnation are much better. So ... if I'm not going to be happy with activating Deed to clear any one set of permanent types, I'm not going to be happy about activating it to clear all permanent types.
Also, Verdant Catacombs and Temple of the False God are decent.
Khymera, have you ever seen the deck's in Legacy known as Mono-Black Aggro, and Eva Green? These decks both focus on Discard AND Land Destruction to a surprising extent. So much so that they are their primary strategies. These two strategies are not contradictory in these decks. I sort of view decks with these strategies as the Eva Green and Mono-Black Aggro of EDH so to speak.
Chrisrawr, I would suggest you read the main forum rules, specifically the part about necroing a thread.