So amidst ponderings about how to make red a better colour, I was wondering as to how restrictive cards with triple of a colour are in deckbuilding.
Obviously they are restrictive, but how many cards are you running with three of the same colour symbol?
I have:
Cryptic Command
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Vedalken Shackles (pretty weak without lotsa Islands)
Silvos, Rogue Elemental
Kodama of the North Tree
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Most notably, I don't have Rorix or Thunderblust. While they look like awesome hasty dudes in red, they require too much of a colour commitment. Or put another way, they aren't worth giving up all the awesome cards that the other colours have to offer.
Including such cards could be used as a design tool to reward players for making monocolored decks. Or as a reason to go monocolor in the first place, when the card is powerful enough.
this is how i look at them. i think every color should have a few cards that encourage mono- or nearly mono-color decks.
in my cube, which has no rares, there are very few triple-colored cards. and the ones that are in typically end the game when cast (e.g. Overrun). heck, there's even a quadruple-colored card (Flame Wave, like i said, it ends games).
Triplecosted cards have the same function as multicolored cards.
They only work in few archetypes, and should therefor be really powerful in these archetypes. Triplecosted cards are fine if the archetypes are supported in the cube. If you don't support monocolored strategies, they will always end up in the sideboard.
Triplecosted cards have the same function as multicolored cards.
I think Bondafog expresses this elegantly. Considering only colour archetypes, there are 32 ways to build a magic deck: 1 artifact only deck; 5 mono-coloured decks; 10 2-coloured decks; 10 3-coloured decks; 5 4-coloured decks; and 1 5-coloured deck. There are even more archetypes if you consider how those combinations can be subtly different, e.g. W/U/b, W/B/u, U/B/w, and also different roles played by the same colour combination, e.g. W/B control or W/B aggro. Not all archetypes are equal: I have never seen an all artifact deck drafted, nor can I see how such a deck would be pushed, as powerful artifacts are snapped up by any deck. I have never seen a mono blue aggro deck drafted, and would not want to "dilute" blue by putting in support for that archetype.
It is not only triple-costed cards that only fit in certain archetypes. Contrast Isamaru and Swords to Plowshares. Both cost only W, but Isamaru I would only play in an aggro deck with a strong white commitment, whereas Swords I would happily splash for in a control deck as well. Similarly the triple-costed cards: Cryptic Command will only go in a deck playing fairly heavy blue, whereas Akroma, Angel of Wrath comes down late, and so can be played in decks with a relatively low white commitment. Of course she frequently gets played in decks with no white sources as a reanimation target. What I am getting at is that I think Silver Knight, with only WW in its casting cost is more "mono-white" than akroma with WWW.
Where does this leave us? I think that it is necessary to consider what archetypes you want to support in your cube, and make sure that the cards included fit one or more of those archetypes. If an archetype is only supported by cards that are high picks in other archetypes, it will be difficult to draft as other players will be picking up the cards you need. Conversely, if cards are narrow and fit only one archetype they should be powerful enough to be worth it, even to the extent of pushing you into that archetype if you open it. BK is the only cuber I am aware of on this forum who is expressly designing his cube to support specified archetypes. I think there is merit in this approach and am curious to hear how it works out.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I made a mistake in the original post omitting some CCC cards that are in actual fact in my cube. Both Akromas, Future Sight and Firecat are in there. I'm still wavering on Rorix though. And Visara? She seems to be a bit outclassed by creatures since then like Kokusho.
I do think that the number of drafters matters though. If your cube is primarily winston drafted then the 'artifact' and mono-coloured strategies Humpty_Dumpty talks about are totally non-viable, and probably two colour decks are non-viable as well.
So is that the context for this discussion? CCC cards in cubes that typically get drafted by 2-4 players?
Visara is awesome, don't doubt that. She's got a nice body, I mean a 5/5 body and flying as well, like Kokusho. However being able to kill any creature is quite a big deal.
I run Thunderblust because I think it's worth the investment. I mean most of the triplecolored permanents are worth it, but even killing Thunderblust isn't good enough, it just persists back. I'm not recommending it, I think it's just fine for a large cube.
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I don't think a pure artifact strategy would ever be viable in cube. I only included it for pedantic completeness.
The number of drafters point is valid, however, and not something I had really considered. My group is up to 9 drafters, is typically 6 or 7, and the cube occasionally gets used for winston or sealed by 2 or 3 players. Thinking about it, in situations where there are 4 or fewer drafters the high colour commitment cards and aggro cards are played significantly less. I wouldn't want to remove them because a) they are very valuable when the whole crew is together, and b) I would like to keep alive the possibility of drafting a fast aggro deck to jolt us out of our mid-range comfort zone. The last time I played sealed my W/U/B control deck (containing Wrath, Damnation, Martial Coup and Akroma's Vengeance) lost to a very fast R/G aggro deck with lots of haste and burn. That players pool was ridiculous (Solifuge, Bloodbraid Elf AND Ram-Gang!), but I liked the fact that once in a while that sort of thing can happen, even in sealed.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Simply having triple-color doesn't make it super hard to cast. The higher the CMC goes on the card, the easier the triple-mana is to play.
Truth. i actually think Ball Lightning is a pretty easy cut if you want to avoid triples, as there are many similar effects that avoid such a high red count. Skizzik and Blistering firecat for example.
Obviously they are restrictive, but how many cards are you running with three of the same colour symbol?
I have:
Most notably, I don't have Rorix or Thunderblust. While they look like awesome hasty dudes in red, they require too much of a colour commitment. Or put another way, they aren't worth giving up all the awesome cards that the other colours have to offer.
Am I way off base here?
this is how i look at them. i think every color should have a few cards that encourage mono- or nearly mono-color decks.
in my cube, which has no rares, there are very few triple-colored cards. and the ones that are in typically end the game when cast (e.g. Overrun). heck, there's even a quadruple-colored card (Flame Wave, like i said, it ends games).
then, of course, there are the monocolor hybrids.
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They only work in few archetypes, and should therefor be really powerful in these archetypes. Triplecosted cards are fine if the archetypes are supported in the cube. If you don't support monocolored strategies, they will always end up in the sideboard.
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I think Bondafog expresses this elegantly. Considering only colour archetypes, there are 32 ways to build a magic deck: 1 artifact only deck; 5 mono-coloured decks; 10 2-coloured decks; 10 3-coloured decks; 5 4-coloured decks; and 1 5-coloured deck. There are even more archetypes if you consider how those combinations can be subtly different, e.g. W/U/b, W/B/u, U/B/w, and also different roles played by the same colour combination, e.g. W/B control or W/B aggro. Not all archetypes are equal: I have never seen an all artifact deck drafted, nor can I see how such a deck would be pushed, as powerful artifacts are snapped up by any deck. I have never seen a mono blue aggro deck drafted, and would not want to "dilute" blue by putting in support for that archetype.
It is not only triple-costed cards that only fit in certain archetypes. Contrast Isamaru and Swords to Plowshares. Both cost only W, but Isamaru I would only play in an aggro deck with a strong white commitment, whereas Swords I would happily splash for in a control deck as well. Similarly the triple-costed cards: Cryptic Command will only go in a deck playing fairly heavy blue, whereas Akroma, Angel of Wrath comes down late, and so can be played in decks with a relatively low white commitment. Of course she frequently gets played in decks with no white sources as a reanimation target. What I am getting at is that I think Silver Knight, with only WW in its casting cost is more "mono-white" than akroma with WWW.
Where does this leave us? I think that it is necessary to consider what archetypes you want to support in your cube, and make sure that the cards included fit one or more of those archetypes. If an archetype is only supported by cards that are high picks in other archetypes, it will be difficult to draft as other players will be picking up the cards you need. Conversely, if cards are narrow and fit only one archetype they should be powerful enough to be worth it, even to the extent of pushing you into that archetype if you open it. BK is the only cuber I am aware of on this forum who is expressly designing his cube to support specified archetypes. I think there is merit in this approach and am curious to hear how it works out.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I made a mistake in the original post omitting some CCC cards that are in actual fact in my cube. Both Akromas, Future Sight and Firecat are in there. I'm still wavering on Rorix though. And Visara? She seems to be a bit outclassed by creatures since then like Kokusho.
I do think that the number of drafters matters though. If your cube is primarily winston drafted then the 'artifact' and mono-coloured strategies Humpty_Dumpty talks about are totally non-viable, and probably two colour decks are non-viable as well.
So is that the context for this discussion? CCC cards in cubes that typically get drafted by 2-4 players?
I run Thunderblust because I think it's worth the investment. I mean most of the triplecolored permanents are worth it, but even killing Thunderblust isn't good enough, it just persists back. I'm not recommending it, I think it's just fine for a large cube.
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540> 360 Powered CubeThe number of drafters point is valid, however, and not something I had really considered. My group is up to 9 drafters, is typically 6 or 7, and the cube occasionally gets used for winston or sealed by 2 or 3 players. Thinking about it, in situations where there are 4 or fewer drafters the high colour commitment cards and aggro cards are played significantly less. I wouldn't want to remove them because a) they are very valuable when the whole crew is together, and b) I would like to keep alive the possibility of drafting a fast aggro deck to jolt us out of our mid-range comfort zone. The last time I played sealed my W/U/B control deck (containing Wrath, Damnation, Martial Coup and Akroma's Vengeance) lost to a very fast R/G aggro deck with lots of haste and burn. That players pool was ridiculous (Solifuge, Bloodbraid Elf AND Ram-Gang!), but I liked the fact that once in a while that sort of thing can happen, even in sealed.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Rorix is much easier to cast at 3RRR.
Simply having triple-color doesn't make it super hard to cast. The higher the CMC goes on the card, the easier the triple-mana is to play.
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Truth. i actually think Ball Lightning is a pretty easy cut if you want to avoid triples, as there are many similar effects that avoid such a high red count. Skizzik and Blistering firecat for example.