I finally broke down today and disassembled my Ghost Council of Orzhova deck, which was 72% foil. I had spent nearly two years, and WotC made my general not as fun. I had tried the deck post-M10, but it is not the same. Yet, opportunities exist where there are great tragedies.
With the fall of my overpowered B/W deck, I have been getting the stronger cards to finish other decks (like actually owning more than one Sol Ring) and I found Vorosh, the Hunter to give me a similar 'fun, but brokengood' feel. I am sure it has been done before, but I want to write it out and get a few others' perspectives as I begin the ultimate personage of the Hunter as we all know him. The list is based on what I have, but I will try to keep it updated (and a checklist of what I need to foil). It is intended for duels, but I want it able to scale a bit (and Vorosh does that well).
The basic goal is simple: play the general, and smash face with said general. I have various abusive means to accomplish this, as well as the extra turn/Regrowth effects engine going. I have played mana-denial with it once (opponent didn'g get their fourth land drop, and I Primal Command setting a turn back, and then Capsize them until I can cast it 2-3 times a turn and just...win), but it is intended as an enjoyable but dangerous deck. Borderlines between control and combo, with the big beef being the finishers and the lil' guys just accelerating and such.
Cards I want to add, but do not have yet:
-On-color fetches: Yes, I know that I can use all fetches, but I want a more 'right' feel to the deck, so the two from ZEN and a foil Polluted Delta will need to be ordered eventually
-Shocklands: I have them being shipped atm.
-Remaining Filters/Painlands: This was literally built this morning, mostly of what I had on-hand. But will get to fixing the manabase once ZEN hits the market
-Lord of Extinction: Big fattie, regardless if there are one or one hundred ppl playing. Cheap too. If he just had trample...
-Life from the Loam I forgot it, but I am not sure what to cut for it. Prolly Oversold Cemetery because it is difficult to get running.
So, anything that anyone feels is not worth running? If I need to give reasons for using ask and I can elaborate. Thanks and post opinions here!
EDIT 20-9-09:
-Spell Burst, +Mystic Snake: Another hardcounter, but can chump. Gonna try this one, and Desertion if I do not like it
-Worldly Tutor, +Reclaim: I am trying to abuse the extra turns with the general, so the tutor usually goes for witness. might as well just do what I am trying to do for 1GG less.
-Oversold Cemetery, +Life from the Loam: forgot to add it in, and I do not have enough creatures to really abuse the cemetery
*Still wanting room for Mystical Teachings among others. Maybe another xtraturn spell. Opinions?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C.S. Lewis
I'd put in Coalition Relic over Darksteel Ingot, but probably find room for both. (Maybe in place of the Avatar of Woe.)
Grand Coliseum is pretty bad, better off with a basic IMO, esp. if you're running fetches/shocks (and you should get duals, obviously). Tainted Wood is also not that great. Would also say the cycle-for-two-mana lands aren't that good.
Thanks for the advice bccarlso, and I am glad you actually read my post instead of blurt out a bunch of cards I should add without seeing what to cut. I do not get this kind of thorough reply, and I appreciate it.
As for the advice on the cards...
-Dimir Cutpurse: he is like Shadowmage Infiltrator#2, making my three-drop card advantage guys more consistent, but I could see him not there.
-Avatar of Woe: I tend to get a lot of mana and can hardcast it, but many opponents in my meta run some HUGE recursion engine. Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus beside a Trinket Mage would be good, but I want to have more interaction with my opponent than just stick-em and play solitaire against them. Plus, I discovered that the avatar makes an infinite turn engine, which I will describe below.
-Oversold Cemetery: this morning i *again* got stuck with two dudes in the yard and the enchantment decorating my playmat. It is becoming a Life from the Loam
-Nostalgic Dreams: I remember that from when it was in standard, and I have always thought it looked cool. Yet, every time I used it, it was never REALLY good, but more meh. However, if I need more yard recovery, that will likely be the first thing I go for. For now, Eternal Witness, Regrowth, Restock and anything else I am forgetting make a solid package.
-I like the Coalition Relic, but I prefer the indestructability that the Darksteel Ingot has, especially when I run deed and disk and o-stone. Plus, I've got the signets and the creatures that fetch lands, so I think I am good on the artifact mana. I was actually considering cutting a manamaker for more beefy creatures.
-The Lands: Agreed on the Grand Coliseum, but it is holding place for a shockland/fetchland. It will be one of the first to get the axe. Tainted Wood along with Tainted Isle are kinda nice, as they can consistently produce colors, and are synergistic with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. If I find cheap duals, theyll be replaced, but I am not wanting to fork over the $150+ for duals until I finish getting my Zendikar stuff in. MTG budget has been horrific as of late (and the Premium Deck Slivers is NOT helping :D). Eventually, if the deck lasts the while, itll likely get duals. On the 2mana cyclers, they are #4-6 cyclelands for Life from the Loam and I have had GREAT luck with them. It feels that I run too many mana sources, but these make sure I rarely get mana-screwed.
-Mind Over Matter: the cost is difficult for the deck, but I do well whenever it hits play. It either acts like a HUGE ritual (untapping my mana), or a recurring Fog, letting my general get through. I did have Gilded Lotus in originally, but I did not like the high cost for it. But it is hard to get the UUUU for it, so if the fetches/shocks don't perform miracles for it, I'd have to agree and cut it.
-Dream Halls: Nope. This deck is mostly for 1v1, and it can really backfire on me as it is a global effect. I would rather stick to Mana Reflection, which does a similar effect (let me go abusive on spells a turn).
-Fact or Fiction: Wow, I forgot to include an iconic blue draw spell, and even used one of similar cost :facepalm:. I need to get one, but you are dead-on, sir.
-Spell Burst: It has not been the all-star it is in extended 'tron, but it's spot definitely needs to be a counter. Desertion would be a great replacement, but I will have to look. This one could be a number of counters, and I want to keep my curve quite low to give me a speed advantage. Not a fan of Spelljack but Forbid I could see in the deck.
As of this morning, I discovered an infinite turn engine in the deck. It is REALLY difficult to assemble and not feasible to build around, but was an epicwin for me
It was a four-man table, and I had Avatar of Woe, Eternal Witness, my general, a Sensei's Divining Top]top and a TON of mana on the board thanks to about 10+ lands on the board and Mana Reflection. There was a Time Stretch in the yard, and my turn came when I topdecked Volrath's Stronghold. I look at my area, some opponent's fields, and mine again. Everyone with blue was either tapped down or without a hand or visible counters, so I go for it. I play the stronghold, avatar eats the witness, I put Witness on top of my library, then activate Top to get the witness. I play the witness, getting time stretch. Play it. Next turn, untap, upkeep avatar eats the witness and I stronghold her to the top again, draw her and play, getting the stretch again. I have the mana after that to play it, and can take turns indefinitely, and beat face with my general to kill two ppl before concessions took place. That got me all smiles, as I did not intentionally put that in there and the table knew I typically did not do that kind of thing often. One laughed, as it was so ridiculously difficult to assemble and to see that was priceless. As he had said to me, 'only you would go as far as sacrificing your own people to resurrect them and do it again to win.'
It was not the typical 1v1 I do, but it was the only EDH deck I had on me so it just worked. Needs more testing, though. Thanks for your input bccarlso, and please feel free to post more ideas! Making me think about individual cards is good, makes the deck better defined.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C.S. Lewis
-Bring Up My Post-
I am wanting to add more card draw/counters to the deck, as well as a few more 'big' creatures (Simic Sky Swallower F.E.), and would appreciate some advice on cutting cards as well as big beasty suggestions.
On in particular I am intending to cut is Holistic Wisdom. It seems strong in some circumstances but I do not use a large amount of one card type. Typically, my hand is too diverse to really abuse it as much as I would like, and a good ol' Restock does the same thing without RFGing-i mean exiling-my other spells. Too narrow i guess, but if I played 40+ sorceries, it would be different. Thoughts?
Private Mod Note
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C.S. Lewis
"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
With the fall of my overpowered B/W deck, I have been getting the stronger cards to finish other decks (like actually owning more than one Sol Ring) and I found Vorosh, the Hunter to give me a similar 'fun, but brokengood' feel. I am sure it has been done before, but I want to write it out and get a few others' perspectives as I begin the ultimate personage of the Hunter as we all know him. The list is based on what I have, but I will try to keep it updated (and a checklist of what I need to foil). It is intended for duels, but I want it able to scale a bit (and Vorosh does that well).
The basic goal is simple: play the general, and smash face with said general. I have various abusive means to accomplish this, as well as the extra turn/Regrowth effects engine going. I have played mana-denial with it once (opponent didn'g get their fourth land drop, and I Primal Command setting a turn back, and then Capsize them until I can cast it 2-3 times a turn and just...win), but it is intended as an enjoyable but dangerous deck. Borderlines between control and combo, with the big beef being the finishers and the lil' guys just accelerating and such.
After a few games with it, I came to a few conclusions:
-Jitte pwns unprepared tables
-Spiritmonger doesn't have to bounce from Inundate or dies to Mass Calcify
-I never seem to have a lot of guys in the yard, so Oversold Cemetery may leave
-I forgot to put Life from the Loam in the deck
-Crystal Shard is fun to abuse with CITP effects (Coiling Oracle and reusing morphs)
-i like that the leash affects a PERMANENT, rather than Treachery as a 'free' Mind Control/Persuasion
-I do not own a Lord of Extinction
Cards I want to add, but do not have yet:
-On-color fetches: Yes, I know that I can use all fetches, but I want a more 'right' feel to the deck, so the two from ZEN and a foil Polluted Delta will need to be ordered eventually
-Shocklands: I have them being shipped atm.
-Remaining Filters/Painlands: This was literally built this morning, mostly of what I had on-hand. But will get to fixing the manabase once ZEN hits the market
-Lord of Extinction: Big fattie, regardless if there are one or one hundred ppl playing. Cheap too. If he just had trample...
-Life from the Loam I forgot it, but I am not sure what to cut for it. Prolly Oversold Cemetery because it is difficult to get running.
So, anything that anyone feels is not worth running? If I need to give reasons for using ask and I can elaborate. Thanks and post opinions here!
EDIT 20-9-09:
-Spell Burst, +Mystic Snake: Another hardcounter, but can chump. Gonna try this one, and Desertion if I do not like it
-Worldly Tutor, +Reclaim: I am trying to abuse the extra turns with the general, so the tutor usually goes for witness. might as well just do what I am trying to do for 1GG less.
-Oversold Cemetery, +Life from the Loam: forgot to add it in, and I do not have enough creatures to really abuse the cemetery
*Still wanting room for Mystical Teachings among others. Maybe another xtraturn spell. Opinions?
-C.S. Lewis
EDH
Obzedat - Still Alive
Retired - Nicol Bolas
Cut Dimir Cutpurse. No evasion makes this guy not that useful IMO, Shadowmage Inflitrator is way better, and should consistently draw you cards.
I dunno, I guess I'd probably cut Avatar of Woe, too, but only because there's probably something a little more abusable you could put in.
I, too, would cut Oversold Cemetary, doesn't look like you can fuel it consistently.
Nostalgic Dreams is such a great card, I'd find room for it.
I'd put in Coalition Relic over Darksteel Ingot, but probably find room for both. (Maybe in place of the Avatar of Woe.)
Grand Coliseum is pretty bad, better off with a basic IMO, esp. if you're running fetches/shocks (and you should get duals, obviously). Tainted Wood is also not that great. Would also say the cycle-for-two-mana lands aren't that good.
What Mind Over Matter engines do you have in there? Maybe I'm missing some, but I don't see Arcanis/Tolarian Academy stuff.
Dream Halls can do some pretty sick stuff, and is definitely a fun card to play with.
Careful Consideration should become Fact or Fiction.
Spell Burst could probably become a better counter, too, like Desertion/Spelljack or Forbid.
Hrm, hope some of that helps!
twitter.com/bccarlso
As for the advice on the cards...
-Dimir Cutpurse: he is like Shadowmage Infiltrator#2, making my three-drop card advantage guys more consistent, but I could see him not there.
-Avatar of Woe: I tend to get a lot of mana and can hardcast it, but many opponents in my meta run some HUGE recursion engine. Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus beside a Trinket Mage would be good, but I want to have more interaction with my opponent than just stick-em and play solitaire against them. Plus, I discovered that the avatar makes an infinite turn engine, which I will describe below.
-Oversold Cemetery: this morning i *again* got stuck with two dudes in the yard and the enchantment decorating my playmat. It is becoming a Life from the Loam
-Nostalgic Dreams: I remember that from when it was in standard, and I have always thought it looked cool. Yet, every time I used it, it was never REALLY good, but more meh. However, if I need more yard recovery, that will likely be the first thing I go for. For now, Eternal Witness, Regrowth, Restock and anything else I am forgetting make a solid package.
-I like the Coalition Relic, but I prefer the indestructability that the Darksteel Ingot has, especially when I run deed and disk and o-stone. Plus, I've got the signets and the creatures that fetch lands, so I think I am good on the artifact mana. I was actually considering cutting a manamaker for more beefy creatures.
-The Lands: Agreed on the Grand Coliseum, but it is holding place for a shockland/fetchland. It will be one of the first to get the axe. Tainted Wood along with Tainted Isle are kinda nice, as they can consistently produce colors, and are synergistic with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. If I find cheap duals, theyll be replaced, but I am not wanting to fork over the $150+ for duals until I finish getting my Zendikar stuff in. MTG budget has been horrific as of late (and the Premium Deck Slivers is NOT helping :D). Eventually, if the deck lasts the while, itll likely get duals. On the 2mana cyclers, they are #4-6 cyclelands for Life from the Loam and I have had GREAT luck with them. It feels that I run too many mana sources, but these make sure I rarely get mana-screwed.
-Mind Over Matter: the cost is difficult for the deck, but I do well whenever it hits play. It either acts like a HUGE ritual (untapping my mana), or a recurring Fog, letting my general get through. I did have Gilded Lotus in originally, but I did not like the high cost for it. But it is hard to get the UUUU for it, so if the fetches/shocks don't perform miracles for it, I'd have to agree and cut it.
-Dream Halls: Nope. This deck is mostly for 1v1, and it can really backfire on me as it is a global effect. I would rather stick to Mana Reflection, which does a similar effect (let me go abusive on spells a turn).
-Fact or Fiction: Wow, I forgot to include an iconic blue draw spell, and even used one of similar cost :facepalm:. I need to get one, but you are dead-on, sir.
-Spell Burst: It has not been the all-star it is in extended 'tron, but it's spot definitely needs to be a counter. Desertion would be a great replacement, but I will have to look. This one could be a number of counters, and I want to keep my curve quite low to give me a speed advantage. Not a fan of Spelljack but Forbid I could see in the deck.
As of this morning, I discovered an infinite turn engine in the deck. It is REALLY difficult to assemble and not feasible to build around, but was an epicwin for me
It was a four-man table, and I had Avatar of Woe, Eternal Witness, my general, a Sensei's Divining Top]top and a TON of mana on the board thanks to about 10+ lands on the board and Mana Reflection. There was a Time Stretch in the yard, and my turn came when I topdecked Volrath's Stronghold. I look at my area, some opponent's fields, and mine again. Everyone with blue was either tapped down or without a hand or visible counters, so I go for it. I play the stronghold, avatar eats the witness, I put Witness on top of my library, then activate Top to get the witness. I play the witness, getting time stretch. Play it. Next turn, untap, upkeep avatar eats the witness and I stronghold her to the top again, draw her and play, getting the stretch again. I have the mana after that to play it, and can take turns indefinitely, and beat face with my general to kill two ppl before concessions took place. That got me all smiles, as I did not intentionally put that in there and the table knew I typically did not do that kind of thing often. One laughed, as it was so ridiculously difficult to assemble and to see that was priceless. As he had said to me, 'only you would go as far as sacrificing your own people to resurrect them and do it again to win.'
It was not the typical 1v1 I do, but it was the only EDH deck I had on me so it just worked. Needs more testing, though. Thanks for your input bccarlso, and please feel free to post more ideas! Making me think about individual cards is good, makes the deck better defined.
-C.S. Lewis
EDH
Obzedat - Still Alive
Retired - Nicol Bolas
I am wanting to add more card draw/counters to the deck, as well as a few more 'big' creatures (Simic Sky Swallower F.E.), and would appreciate some advice on cutting cards as well as big beasty suggestions.
On in particular I am intending to cut is Holistic Wisdom. It seems strong in some circumstances but I do not use a large amount of one card type. Typically, my hand is too diverse to really abuse it as much as I would like, and a good ol' Restock does the same thing without RFGing-i mean exiling-my other spells. Too narrow i guess, but if I played 40+ sorceries, it would be different. Thoughts?
-C.S. Lewis
EDH
Obzedat - Still Alive
Retired - Nicol Bolas
i play vorosh and he is a brutal mother☺☺☺☺er. he really really likes momentous fall when your opponents attempt to kill him.
EDIT: i didn't see avatar of woe in your list when i suggested the sac outlet. sorry bout that.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB