So I've been fiddling around with different generals and I decided to put together a Vorosh deck and I'm not sure yet if I want this to focus on Multiplayer or 1v1 yet. I'm mostly just trying to balance it between the two right now. It feels like more of a 1v1 deck though, and I have yet to test it in a multiplayer game.
Let me know what you think, and suggestions are welcome but please give some reason behind it don't just say something like "needs more cowbell." Something like card "A" would be better than card "B" because "reasoning."
Just guessing, Vesuvan Shapeshifter is probably the combo piece with Brine Elemental. Not 100% if it works, and no time to check I'm about to clock out and go to lunch.
I don't know why I haven't tried Mystical Tutor or Worldly Tutor yet, guess they slipped my mind since they're in other decks at the moment. I haven't used Mystical Teachings in any EDH deck yet but the card is useful, so I may give it a go in this deck.
Here is a useful e-mail my friend sent me about my version of Vorosh, the Hunter vs. his version. His version was able to take down my Zur deck in our small EDH tournament during the top 8 even though I had defeated him during the swiss rounds. All the games were pretty intense for the first several turns and if it got too late into the match he won since his strategy was late game.
I've already made some changes to my deck based on these suggestions.
Also I edited this e-mail to include links to cards to make it a little easier to read.
Walker's Thoughts on my Vorosh Deck:
I wrote a novel. Here's the short version. You basically built GoodStuff.dec. That's pretty much what I did, but mine was late-game oriented. That's where most of my diverging decisions came from: more land, expensive spells, more spot removal, fewer counterspells, more draw/241 effects (which are pricier). Read on if you want the rambling details that I didn't organize very well.
Looks pretty similar in concept to what I eventually ran. You have a few choices that don't fit with my paradigm, though. To understand why my build diverges, I think you need to know how I built it.
The premise for the deck was that EDH gives you 40 life. Effectively, you gain 20 life at the beginning of the game. I basically trade those 20 points (and frequently another 10 or 15) for board position. My deck had a dangerously low amount of early game in its first incarnation. Instead I played as many engines as I could along with high-utility cards (IE, cards that are never dead, but almost always did something more than just turn sideways for damage--you already have Vorosh, the Hunter to do that for you) and a ton of draw, which I happen to like more than tutors even in singleton. While tutors do effectively win you the game if you can ensure resolution and have enough mana, they also slow you down significantly, which is something I didn't want to do to an already glacial deck.
When we ran our EDH tourney, I culled a several of my narrower high-cost cards for cheap spot-removal to eat fast general strategies. I beat Zur the Enchanter because of this, didn't face Scion of the Ur-Dragon, lost to Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary despite this, though I kept the worst hand of all time in game 2 based on not reading the cards.
Anyway, I included more spot removal than usual in an unknown format because of the general concept. It's never dead. Your opponent WILL cast his general again at some point unless you've taken complete control of the game already.
(You should play this card in EDH. The end.) Coalition Relic
And maybe one or two others (the deck is long since dismantled for cube drafting). All of this put the deck pretty much in line with Lorwyn-Time Spiral Quick'n'Toast decks strategically. You bury your opponent in card advantage. Just don't die long enough and eventually either he will run out of cards or you will draw one of your few "I win the game" cards. It played just enough removal and acceleration to not lose outright to the fast decks and everything else was an expensive bomb or a 241 answer. I also tried to maintain a high level of internal synergy. There were a lot of cards in the deck that played well together in addition to being very powerful on their own. This led to randomly drawing a "good card" and having it break a game wide open. My base rule for playing synergistic cards was to exclude everything that was not good by itself.
Additionally, I tried to minimize cards that were dead based on how far the game had progressed, provided I had enough mana to cast it. You'll note that with the exception of Kodama's Reach and the ridiculous Coalition Relic, all of my acceleration does something besides accelerate. There are some cards that I feel are very powerful, but not worth including in a singleton environment because they effectively have a "window" in which you play them to basically win the game, but if you miss that window, they don't do enough to merit inclusion. Plow Under borders this category, but it still denies two draw steps late.
In addition to "window" cards, I also tried to exclude "win more" cards. I have no issue running cards that don't do anything if I'm already winning, but cards that don't do anything (or do less than usual) if I'm losing I'm warier of. Plow Under also borders this category. I didn't include it in my deck. It fits better in yours, however, because you have a lot more early game than I did. I'd wager you still have less than the average EDH deck you play against, though, so put some thought into that.
Your deck actually looks more like classic rock. A lot of your cards want to go 1 for 1 and then you pick up the slack with a handful of card advantage-generators. This strategy is usually faster at defending but has a weaker late game.
I also ran ~43 lands. This is a pet peeve of mine. I run as many lands as I can get away with in formats that have a good amount of mid-late game draw effects. I did not run Maze of Ith. If I had one, I would have made it 44 rather than cut a mana producer. I also intentionally left Gemstone Mine out, because I could literally tap out every turn and still want more mana up until my opponent scooped. I'm not sure if your deck does this, so maybe Gemstone is fine.
Finally, were it my deck, here are the cards I would not run. I have a much more controlling approach to deckbuilding than most people and tend to focus on card advantage, both actual and virtual (topdecking cards that don't actually help). I think most, if not all, of these are solid cards and this isn't necessarily grounds to cut them from your deck. This is just a comparison to what I ran.
**Harrow is awesome. I love it. Be careful playing it in any metagame with counterspells. Additionally, you have only 7 basics. You have Fetches and Loam. I Kodama's Reached on more than one occasion and couldn't find both lands and I was running a similar number of basics. I also consider Kodama's Reach superior to Harrow unless you are dead-set on not tapping out during your turn. Harrow is better at fixing your colors and gives you the small upside of having the lands untapped. Kodama's Reach is much, much more powerful in the early game, though. It not only ramps you from 3 to 4 immediately, but it also makes sure you hit your next drop to 5, and Harrow doesn't. Again, though, this was much more important in my build. You have a lot of action for 2-4 mana and I didn't.
***I like this card in EDH, but I think it is a worse version of Decree of Pain. Of course, I did not usually "win" by attacking (aside from just running the turn 4 Vorosh out there sometimes). It was usually attrition until my opponent had nothing left and the game was won in all but name, then attacking to formally win. Plague Wind has much more value if you're actually trying to keep dudes on the table and turn them sideways.
You're running a lot more Counterspells than I was. I have a slight aversion to countermagic overload, which I think partially comes from respect for Jesse, who was my best regular-basis opponent for years, and partially comes from the fact that they are effectively a "window" card as I described above, except their "window" is based on the current board state. As long as your opponent does not have board advantage, the ability to say no is awesome. But if he's ahead on the table, odds are you will fall further behind trying to get value out of your counters. I like answers that work if I draw them after the problem is resolved. I think that's more personal preference than anything else. I think Counterspell is absolutely the weakest of your countermagic package and that's why it's on the list. Voidslime is probably the next weakest, but I may actually have been running it. I consistently underrate Draining Whelk's ability to win the game. It's a fine card; it just doesn't suit my tap out playstyle.
Chainer's Edict is awesome. I just don't like it in EDH. I see a lot of "throwaway" creatures that make it suck. That may have just been my metagame, though. Potential replacement for that is Devour in Shadow. No card advantage and potentially painful downside, but it always gets the job done for 2 mana at instant speed.
Beacon of Unrest strikes me as something that doesn't do enough for its price. I realize that it will frequently win the game, but there will be times when you're looking at paying 5 for a Sakura-Tribe Elder, and that's just unacceptable to me.
Plow Under. I LOVE Plow Under. I squeezed it in basically everything while it was legal in Standard. But the power of Plow Under comes from hitting it on curve, and that's not something you're realistically able to do in EDH. It's still solid. If your opponent is in late-game topdeck mode it's awesome. But in the midgame it sucks. But if you're just looking to have a critical mass of broken stuff to do on turns 3-5 with all of your artifact mana, leave it in.
Simic Sky Swallower is gravy. I had him in my original 100, then I realized he's just Vorosh, the Hunter with Shroud. Except Vorosh, the Hunter can't die if you keep making land drops, so I didn't feel he was necessary. If you want something beefy for the late game, there are other options that have utility beyond turning sideways (and you're playing several of them). If you want the Shroud because your metagame has a ton of targeted removal, more power to you.
Tutors. I wasn't running tutors. I honestly can't give you a terribly compelling reason why. It was a lot of little factors. I think they probably translate to extra draw spells in my build. They were usually able to buy me at least a turn to fire off another draw spell and find a real answer. My deck had more "answers" to common situations than yours, however. Anyway, I played draw spells over tutors. I like hitting land drops. They can usually find you a card you need AND give you one or two more, which is awesome. But this leads to longer games. Sometimes you Tidings into removal, two lands, and a Life from the Loam, whereas if you had a Diabolic Tutor you could have just gone and gotten Mindslaver.
Krosan Grip. I don't usually run cards that "just" kill artifacts/enchantments. You can find this effect stapled to a dude or on a broader answer--most of the artifact blow-up-the-world effects have it.
And finally, here's a small sample of cards that I think are powerful enough to put in your deck. Most of them cost a bajillion, which doesn't fit your current paradigm.
Death Cloud
This is really in a category on its own. I don't think I've ever cast this as more than a Chainer's Edict and lost. And sometimes you just need a Chainer's Edict for 4 mana and that's okay too.
Tezzeret the Seeker
You have a lot of stupid things to do with Tezzeret the Seeker. Equipment, Top, play him on turn 2 off broken artifact mana and untap. It's a long list. He's expensive for very little immediate effect, though, unless you just want to pay 5 for a Umezawa's Jitte.
Chord of Calling
You have a bunch of utility dudes. Fits in pretty well.
Oblivion Stone
I think it's marginally better than disc. Late game it plays and activates on the same turn. Nevinyrral's Disk is cheaper, though.
Mind Twist/Mind Shatter
Suffer from the same issues as Plow Under, but more versatile, and usually stronger. No tempo swing, but tempo isn't as important in a format as slow as EDH (unless your opponent's deck is faster than Plow Under anyway or REALLY slow like mine was--and Mind Twist is probably better against the glacial ones).
You're running some interesting ETB (formerly, CIP) creatures like Coiling Oracle and Eternal Witness that might enjoy a Cloudstone Curio to accompany them. Otherwise, I don't know how much I love the Oracle.
You're running some interesting ETB (formerly, CIP) creatures like Coiling Oracle and Eternal Witness that might enjoy a Cloudstone Curio to accompany them. Otherwise, I don't know how much I love the Oracle.
I like Cloudstone Curio but I only have 10 critters that would possibly benefit from the interactions so I'm a little hesitant in considering it right now, I don't get to do much testing until the weekends so maybe I'll try a few games with it then.
Tezzerator it would be nice if I actually new which card you were linking to and I would also like some reason behind you wanting me to try this card whatever it is. I stated in my original post that I did not want simple comments stating to use something just because. My only guess as to what card that is supposed to be is Seedborn Muse.
I like Cloudstone Curio but I only have 10 critters that would possibly benefit from the interactions so I'm a little hesitant in considering it right now, I don't get to do much testing until the weekends so maybe I'll try a few games with it then.
Yeah, I can dig that having only 10 creatures with ETB effects smakes it seem less useful, but as long as you have even one of them out you can create shenanigans. Bouncing Eternal Witness is always a happy experience.
I'm running a Vorosh deck now, and I can't stress enough how much Doubling Season helps. Tricks with other creatures that get counters plus Simic Guildmage are all sorts of fun.
Private Mod Note
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There's one at the door, at the gate to damnation...
Is it thief, thug or whore? There's one at the door...
And there's room for one more till the end of creation. Neil Gaiman, Sandman #4 - A Hope in Hell
Yeah, I can dig that having only 10 creatures with ETB effects smakes it seem less useful, but as long as you have even one of them out you can create shenanigans. Bouncing Eternal Witness is always a happy experience.
Anyway, good luck with your build!
maybe a better solution here would be Crystal Shard? It still lets you bounce your ETB guys and you can be a hinderance for anyone who likes to tap out for big critters.
I like Vintage, then Legacy or Elder Dragon Highlander, Cube, 40 card minimum decks, Pauper, casual
What about instead of having the ante cards banned the word "ante" would become a reminder thing like "Domain-" meaning: "Exile the top card of your library face down. Your opponent may play this card as though it had flash and without paying it's mana cost." It kind of keeps the spirit.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir--Teferi plus Mystical Teachings would allow you to have a an instant speed creature search. Also, being able to play your general at end step is good
Bitterblossom--If you decide to go 1v1 with this deck instead of multiplayer, then a turn two Bitterblossom gives you a very good lead. Also some EDH decks have a hard time dealing with that on turn two.
Riptide Laboratory--This card won't be the greatest probably, but if you added more wizards then it could be good. I really only mention it because you run Glenn Elendra Archmage and having a reusable Counter is decent. Plus, with Teferi, you have a Flash Creature.
Sylvan Scrying--With the amount of Non Basics you run, it could be useful. That is the only reason why I even suggest it.
Also, More Cowbell is always Necessary
Private Mod Note
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EDH--Still working on getting one built BPhage the UntouchableB GRBKresh the BloodbraidedGRB
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir--Teferi plus Mystical Teachings would allow you to have a an instant speed creature search. Also, being able to play your general at end step is good
Bitterblossom--If you decide to go 1v1 with this deck instead of multiplayer, then a turn two Bitterblossom gives you a very good lead. Also some EDH decks have a hard time dealing with that on turn two.
Riptide Laboratory--This card won't be the greatest probably, but if you added more wizards then it could be good. I really only mention it because you run Glenn Elendra Archmage and having a reusable Counter is decent. Plus, with Teferi, you have a Flash Creature.
Sylvan Scrying--With the amount of Non Basics you run, it could be useful. That is the only reason why I even suggest it.
1st card new to EDH but maybe would be good, maybe you have enough draw to support it
2nd card since your list has 29 instants and sorceries I believe so I could help you to get what you need.
3rd card doubles up as offensive and post combat creature destruction
4th It's a big guy, has good art, neat card, and looks fun!
5th just came to mind and it gives options
P.S. as far as I understand hyperlinks to images are ok, but img tagging them aren't, is that right? If not I might not be on for a few days or more on vacation right now, so if it isn't allowed maybe change to (search cowbell:gif in google images.)
I like Vintage, then Legacy or Elder Dragon Highlander, Cube, 40 card minimum decks, Pauper, casual
What about instead of having the ante cards banned the word "ante" would become a reminder thing like "Domain-" meaning: "Exile the top card of your library face down. Your opponent may play this card as though it had flash and without paying it's mana cost." It kind of keeps the spirit.
Let me know what you think, and suggestions are welcome but please give some reason behind it don't just say something like "needs more cowbell." Something like card "A" would be better than card "B" because "reasoning."
1 Vorosh, the Hunter
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Tezzeret, the Seeker
Creatures (16)
1 Acidic Slime
1 Body Double
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Mulldrifter
1 Mystic Snake
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Sundering Titan
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Elder
Enchantments (3)
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sylvan Library
Instants (13)
1 Capsize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Cryptic Command
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Harrow
1 Hinder
1 Intuition
1 Mana Drain
1 Opportunity
1 Putrefy
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Concentrate
1 Damnation
1 Death Cloud
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Mind Twist
1 Profane Command
1 Promise of Power
1 Reap and Sow
1 Regrowth
1 Restock
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Stretch
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Artifacts (12)
1 Coalition Relic
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dimir Signet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mindslaver
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Simic Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Land (38)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Strip Mine
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 City of Brass
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Underground Sea
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Flooded Grove
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Twilight Mire
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Underground River
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Forest
4 Island
4 Swamp
Lim-Dul's Vault is a great draw/search card.
Combo of Brine Elemental and the Shapeshifter dude (can't remember his name right now) can give you the pickle lock and is also back breaking.
I hear Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, and Worldy Tutor are nice with Sensei's Divining Top. Speaking of tutors, Mystical Teachings is a reusable tutor.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
Genesis ofcourse, I meant to have that on my list of things to get. Slipped my mind while making this thread at work.
I have Lim-Dul's Vault but haven't tested it yet.
Just guessing, Vesuvan Shapeshifter is probably the combo piece with Brine Elemental. Not 100% if it works, and no time to check I'm about to clock out and go to lunch.
I don't know why I haven't tried Mystical Tutor or Worldly Tutor yet, guess they slipped my mind since they're in other decks at the moment. I haven't used Mystical Teachings in any EDH deck yet but the card is useful, so I may give it a go in this deck.
Thanks for your suggestions / reminders.
I've already made some changes to my deck based on these suggestions.
Also I edited this e-mail to include links to cards to make it a little easier to read.
Walker's Thoughts on my Vorosh Deck:
You're running some interesting ETB (formerly, CIP) creatures like Coiling Oracle and Eternal Witness that might enjoy a Cloudstone Curio to accompany them. Otherwise, I don't know how much I love the Oracle.
Spam Warning Issued. — DC
I like Cloudstone Curio but I only have 10 critters that would possibly benefit from the interactions so I'm a little hesitant in considering it right now, I don't get to do much testing until the weekends so maybe I'll try a few games with it then.
Tezzerator it would be nice if I actually new which card you were linking to and I would also like some reason behind you wanting me to try this card whatever it is. I stated in my original post that I did not want simple comments stating to use something just because. My only guess as to what card that is supposed to be is Seedborn Muse.
Yeah, I can dig that having only 10 creatures with ETB effects smakes it seem less useful, but as long as you have even one of them out you can create shenanigans. Bouncing Eternal Witness is always a happy experience.
Anyway, good luck with your build!
Is it thief, thug or whore? There's one at the door...
And there's room for one more till the end of creation.
Neil Gaiman, Sandman #4 - A Hope in Hell
maybe a better solution here would be Crystal Shard? It still lets you bounce your ETB guys and you can be a hinderance for anyone who likes to tap out for big critters.
What about instead of having the ante cards banned the word "ante" would become a reminder thing like "Domain-" meaning: "Exile the top card of your library face down. Your opponent may play this card as though it had flash and without paying it's mana cost." It kind of keeps the spirit.
Dexterity Ha! that's why we have machines wAtTerRMElon and this egg thing.
Vintage: Unban Shahrazad
Bitterblossom--If you decide to go 1v1 with this deck instead of multiplayer, then a turn two Bitterblossom gives you a very good lead. Also some EDH decks have a hard time dealing with that on turn two.
Riptide Laboratory--This card won't be the greatest probably, but if you added more wizards then it could be good. I really only mention it because you run Glenn Elendra Archmage and having a reusable Counter is decent. Plus, with Teferi, you have a Flash Creature.
Sylvan Scrying--With the amount of Non Basics you run, it could be useful. That is the only reason why I even suggest it.
Also, More Cowbell is always Necessary
BPhage the UntouchableB
GRBKresh the BloodbraidedGRB
Here's some thoughts: looks fun maybe not too good though.......IDK, Merchant's doing what?!, fun card, I've always liked this guy and his friends, but this guy more, Herr Voidiewodie, one of my favorites, and I could've thought of more but my eye's were Cheeseburgers.
1st card new to EDH but maybe would be good, maybe you have enough draw to support it
2nd card since your list has 29 instants and sorceries I believe so I could help you to get what you need.
3rd card doubles up as offensive and post combat creature destruction
4th It's a big guy, has good art, neat card, and looks fun!
5th just came to mind and it gives options
+ any cheeseburgers should have some condiments.
Green, Blue, and Black Kicker cards
Green, Blue, and Black cards with the word "back" all flashback and all buyback hopefully
P.S. as far as I understand hyperlinks to images are ok, but img tagging them aren't, is that right? If not I might not be on for a few days or more on vacation right now, so if it isn't allowed maybe change to (search cowbell:gif in google images.)
What about instead of having the ante cards banned the word "ante" would become a reminder thing like "Domain-" meaning: "Exile the top card of your library face down. Your opponent may play this card as though it had flash and without paying it's mana cost." It kind of keeps the spirit.
Dexterity Ha! that's why we have machines wAtTerRMElon and this egg thing.
Vintage: Unban Shahrazad